Decision time at AFC

[Stiffy_18]

OK guys I want your opinion on this.

I think its fair to say that we will not finish top 4 and top 8 while still a possibility after round 22, is a LONG LONG way off. Where to from here?????? Does AFC decide to make something out of a season adn give it a red hot go playing out best side week in week out despine not being good enough to win the flag or do we go down another path and play youngsters at all costs??????

There is one problem with the second option, Gary Ayres. Not that Gary is not playing youngsters (quite the contrary) but how does a coach who is expected to take this side to the finals put his head on the chopping block and playing a lot of youngsters which will lead to a lot of losses in the short to medium term. Would it be really bad if we give Gary a 2 year contract and tell him to build his side up from scratch??????

If AFC decide that its time of evolution and playing youngsters is the way to go they really have to tell Gary now where he stands. Do they stick with him for a couple of more years or do we tell him he will not be here come the end of the season??????

Thoughts??????

 

[tribey]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
If AFC decide that its time of evolution and playing youngsters is the way to go they really have to tell Gary now where he stands. Do they stick with him for a couple of more years or do we tell him he will not be here come the end of the season??????

Thoughts??????

It all hinges on Friday night. If we lose that then there has to be a meeting to discuss long term strategy. With Goody, Hart and Biggles out for the next few weeks we're on a hiding to nothing as far as onfield results go.

Thus if we lose to Richmond everyone's got to be upfront and serious about the future. If the board feels that these results are unacceptable they can tell Gary that it's finals or bust as far as his contract goes - or they can throw their hands up and say maybe we aren't as good as we thought we are, give Gary a contract guarantee of another year and a license to develop the kids as best he can, with results being secondary.

 

[Bockchoy67]

Well Stiffy, you make a great point and really, it's a gamble each way.

Blooding the youngsters is a great long - term option. However, it would also cost us any real chance of having an impact in the finals.

Ayres is currently under pressure to take this group to the finals, yet we continuely lose game.

My verdict: Maintain a balanced side but lean more towards the youngsters, getting rid of such players as Basset, Shirley (if he does not improve), Mattner, Smith, and Burns.

With Carey and Smart retiring at the end of the year, it paves way for an exciting young future. Playing young guns like Watts (later in the year) would do a huge amount, as would playing players like Bock, Rutten, etc.

Unfortunately, Ayres NEEDS to bring this club to success, and blooding youngsters is a dangerous prospect. It's a road that must be taken carefully and patiently, and the Crows board, the fans, and the overall Club do not seem to have this patience.

If it was up to me, I would give Ayres one more year, only if he would change the game plan and play a more balanced side. If the results do not come, get rid of him.

But if the results do come, the club would really benefit from the decision.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Its a really interesting dilema. At 0-4 its is really pushing it to make the 8 and lets face it with the current finals system, any team outside the top 4 is just making up the numbers and not having a good enough chance to win the flag.

Our squad as it stands is NOT good enough to win a flag. Maybe the right thing to do is to give Gary an extra year or 2 and tell him to build the team up from scratch and playing youngsters is amust while results don't really matter.

Personally I am not a big Gary Ayres fan but this strategy doesn't seem bad. This way we would give youngsters some experience and they could learn a lot playing with the senior players while still getting good draft picks in the process.

This year is NOT the year of the flag so why waste the year of being another middle of the road battler side that is no threat but better than some of the other sides going around. All this while playing experinced players all the way through.


I think it might be time to review our strategies.

 

[SAbella]

Arghhh the thought of having Gary Ayres coach the crows for even one more year doesn't sit very well with me, maybe because I have never liked him and was never happy about him being appointed coach of the club.
However, my bias opinion aside, your suggestion makes sense and does have some merit, I guess it needs to be explored a little more, maybe the idea can be raised again in a week or two when we see how the team is travelling then, might be a little early to tell, the Crows have definitely showed some good signs over the last two weeks, it cant be disputed that they have improved, 15 points is not a big thrashing from a team that sits at the top of the ladder whilst we're the team that sits at the bottom and in retrospect the 8 point loss to Fremantle at Subiaco is not all that bad considering what happened to Collingwood today (sorry couldn't resist that).
I'd like to know exactly who the other options for coach are before deciding to keep Ayres though...

 

[ok.crows]

I think it is time to review our strategy, but I thouhgt that after round 1.

Predictably, Ayres kept going with his original strategy (flawed - as even blind freddy could see) after round 1, and now we are 0-4.

Ergo, even if there is to be a change of strategy, I don't see Ayres as the person to go with to implement it.

 

[GrandfinalGurus]

Decision time

My thoughts on this are as follows: Ayers is not getting enough out of his support staff, skills are bad, forward set up is somewhat dodgey, and gameday tactics are often predictable. The AFC board need to do a major overhaul of the Football dept. Have a rethink on assitant coaches, and recruiting, and bring in less conservative minds in both areas.
Do a complete clean out of the playing list, trading or delisting players like: Shirley, Skipworth, Pierrie, Bode, Ladhams. these players have been in the AFL system for more than 4 years now and simply aren't improving any further. Some will argue they haven't been given opportunities, but having been in the AFL for 4 years, how may years do players need??
I would offer Stenglien and Burton for trade, in the hope that you might get a Schammer or Waters, back home from the West, and Burton for someone like Cam Faulkner from the Bulldogs, if not a High Draft Pick.
Ayers has brought a tough accountable style to the AFC, he now needs some creative, modern thinkers around him to get more from the side.
Write off 2004, start playing the younger guys along side of the Careys and Smarts.

 

[DaveW]

We can't take the soft option.

Get rid of Ayres by year's end. The club needs a new direction.

He's free to do what he likes til he gets the chop.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by DaveW
We can't take the soft option.

Get rid of Ayres by year's end. The club needs a new direction.

He's free to do what he likes til he gets the chop.

But doesn't that prolong the rebuilding process. By going down your path we are virtually wasting 2004 season.

I doubt we will finish in the bottom 4 if we give Ayres an option of doing what he likes and hence would be a middle of the road side that is a pretender who gets ordinary picks.

I thinks its a case of having a bit of compromise each way.

 

[macca23]

Re: Decision time

Originally posted by GrandfinalGurus
I would offer Stenglien and Burton for trade, in the hope that you might get a Schammer or Waters, back home from the West, and Burton for someone like Cam Faulkner from the Bulldogs, if not a High Draft Pick.
Ayers has brought a tough accountable style to the AFC, he now needs some creative, modern thinkers around him to get more from the side.
Write off 2004, start playing the younger guys along side of the Careys and Smarts.

Very good post for a first post.

We're not going to win a flag this year - so personally I'm happy to declare it a rebuilding year and give as many young blokes as possible a game for the experience.

Coming back to Stify's suggestion that Ayres gets another year at least to help the rebuild, I'm even happy with that, as long as he is given some support which is far more proactive on game day than those helping make the decisions now.

 

[theorangeapple]

im afraid young beau waters isnt going anywhere. he has been very impressive for the eagles considering he has only just turned 18. he was averaging 26 disposals in the wafl from a back pocket (yeh go figure) hence he was promoted.

can i give some advice as an eagles fan- who has a bit of a soft spot for the crows.
we are both very similar in many ways, the most apparant is that we both were dual premiers and had/have champion players who have slowly filtered out. the only difference is that our premierships came a few years early than u guys, hence we are further into the rebuilding faze (which it doesnt seem u guys have started). i suggest the crows follow the path we took, play nearly every player and see which of them can play well at this level. this has two benifits; the first being u know who to trade/delist at the end of the season and the second is that it allows u access to high draft picks. which ultimatley will lift your side up the ladder (as u saw against the saints). now im not suggesting a proud club like the crows looses less than five games (like the eagles did) but fu*k me it gives ure club a huge boost- allowing access to 2 high quality superstar young kids. we got judd and sampi.

the crows are not a bad side, and no where near as bad as the eagles were in 2000. but there is little point finishing 11th or 12th. or even 7-8th unless ure on the way up next year.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Re: Re: Decision time

Originally posted by macca23
Very good post for a first post.

We're not going to win a flag this year - so personally I'm happy to declare it a rebuilding year and give as many young blokes as possible a game for the experience.

Coming back to Stify's suggestion that Ayres gets another year at least to help the rebuild, I'm even happy with that, as long as he is given some support which is far more proactive on game day than those helping make the decisions now.

I think GrandfinalGurus has hit the nail on the head. A major overhaul of the football department and recruiting department has to tkae place.

Not declaring this year as a rebuilding year would be living in the dreamworld. We are nowhere near good enough to win the flag and will not be for at least another 4-5 years.

Now, i am not the one who likes "throwing" games on purpose. What I am for is playing youngsters at all costs. Rutten played well for the westies against Port at CHF taking 9 marks to go with his 18 touches. Give the kid a go. Give Bock a go. Lets find out who is up to it and who is not. This will give us something to work with.

Be agressive come trading period. Shop the fringe players around even if you don't get anything more than a 3rd round pick for them. Go agressively after a few good promising kids from other sides. GO after, Faulkner, Schammer, Waters, Daniel Bell, Nick Smith etc.

Trade Stenglein to WC or Freo for something decent. I am a fan of Stengleins but this is business and we might need to be tough and hard.

If we get a good pick in pr-season draft, push other clubs into the corner. If we get #1 pick this year why not push Richmond into a corner to trade Ottens. Either trade for less than he is worth or lose him for nothing.

Anyone remeber how St. Kilda got Gherig?????? They pushed WC into the corner. In the end WC had to accept Sierakovski and pick 18. I think Gherig was worth more than that.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by DaveW
We can't take the soft option.

Get rid of Ayres by year's end. The club needs a new direction.

He's free to do what he likes til he gets the chop.

Dave he possibly gets the chop if there is a better coaching option.
It is increasingly looking as though there will be a number of coaching jobs available.
We may not get who we want?

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
But doesn't that prolong the rebuilding process. By going down your path we are virtually wasting 2004 season.

Well that depends if Ayres wants to commit to the rebuilding process. If he think thats in our best interests, then he'll do that.

I think the head coach has to do things his way. If he wants to go hell for leather for a win each week then he should do that.

If he wants to develop players for the long term betterment of the club, then do that. A la Tony Shaw in his last year at Collingwood.

I doubt we will finish in the bottom 4 if we give Ayres an option of doing what he likes and hence would be a middle of the road side that is a pretender who gets ordinary picks.

So we should be aiming to finish low?

Sounds dodgy.

Mind you, the way we're going at the moment, we won't have to bother manipulating things to get good picks.

I thinks its a case of having a bit of compromise each way.

I just don't think Ayres should be given any guarantees until years end.

Ultimately if Ayres goes down the rebuilding route he's more likely, I think, to get another contract. That is, if he can show the board he has a long term plan, rather than just trying to impress them with the number of wins the team chalked up this year.

Of course, I personally hope he's not at the club next year whichever way he goes.

 

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Dave he possibly gets the chop if there is a better coaching option.
It is increasingly looking as though there will be a number of coaching jobs available.
We may not get who we want?

I don't think that will really be a factor. When it comes to AFL coaching posititions, supply will usually outweigh demand.

You know you're struggling when you keep a coach merely because you can't find anyone better.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
OK guys I want your opinion on this.

I think its fair to say that we will not finish top 4 and top 8 while still a possibility after round 22, is a LONG LONG way off. Where to from here?????? Does AFC decide to make something out of a season adn give it a red hot go playing out best side week in week out despine not being good enough to win the flag or do we go down another path and play youngsters at all costs??????

There is one problem with the second option, Gary Ayres. Not that Gary is not playing youngsters (quite the contrary) but how does a coach who is expected to take this side to the finals put his head on the chopping block and playing a lot of youngsters which will lead to a lot of losses in the short to medium term. Would it be really bad if we give Gary a 2 year contract and tell him to build his side up from scratch??????

If AFC decide that its time of evolution and playing youngsters is the way to go they really have to tell Gary now where he stands. Do they stick with him for a couple of more years or do we tell him he will not be here come the end of the season??????

Thoughts??????

Stiffy I think Gary indicated last year he wanted to blood more youngsters, and so far if you look at the new blood, he is true to his word.
I think the club is definately of the view of blooding youngsters and getting in the finals.
If the finals become unrealistic, I don't think the current selection policy will change - youngsters still have to earn the games, otherwise their confidence and longevity in the game can be shot.
Where it is a 50/50 decision on players, the club clearly is opting for the player of the future. Hence Burns, and Shirley are in the SANFL

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by DaveW
So we should be aiming to finish low?

Not at all.

What I am saying is play the kids at all costs. Chances are that by playing kids you will not get any wins on the board because of the inexperience factor. Also a lot of these kids are raw so there is a lot of development to come from these kids. Playing them now at all costs will somewhat fast track our rebuilding phase.

This way we will find out who is up to it and will be a part of our side for years to come or who is up to it and might not be needed but would provide a very valuable trading comodity. Whether we start rebuilding now or next year makes absolutely no difference to anyone. In fact startig it this year would mean that we will get out of this cycle quicker than if we start teh phase a year later.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Re: Decision time

Originally posted by GrandfinalGurus
My thoughts on this are as follows: Ayers is not getting enough out of his support staff, skills are bad, forward set up is somewhat dodgey, and gameday tactics are often predictable. The AFC board need to do a major overhaul of the Football dept. Have a rethink on assitant coaches, and recruiting, and bring in less conservative minds in both areas.
Do a complete clean out of the playing list, trading or delisting players like: Shirley, Skipworth, Pierrie, Bode, Ladhams. these players have been in the AFL system for more than 4 years now and simply aren't improving any further. Some will argue they haven't been given opportunities, but having been in the AFL for 4 years, how may years do players need??
I would offer Stenglien and Burton for trade, in the hope that you might get a Schammer or Waters, back home from the West, and Burton for someone like Cam Faulkner from the Bulldogs, if not a High Draft Pick.
Ayers has brought a tough accountable style to the AFC, he now needs some creative, modern thinkers around him to get more from the side.
Write off 2004, start playing the younger guys along side of the Careys and Smarts.

You make some good points, but no club writes a season off. Ayres has certainly made us competitive, and I like his "preferred gamestyle". Trouble is you need the players down the spine to play that style - we don't have them, whose fault is it?
Certainly Skippy and Shirley are not AFL standard. Perrie, Bode and Ladhams are good support players, not the star attraction some would have them be.
There is a proportion of the Brisbane team that wete also part of the glorious Wooden Spoon days - doesnt mean that with the addition of 2-3 quality KPP and a strengthening of the midfield, these players cant be good contributors to the AFC.
I agree we should trade for higher draft picks (Burton, Biglands, Mcgregor), trouble is no-one wants to give up good players for an unknown draft choice.
The Eagles did it brilliantly during their peak period, Essendon are traditionally good, and Brisbane is getting to the same level.
Its about trading one player for an even better player - no-one would argue that.

Our needs are: a FB, a nippy onballer (liptak type) to rove the packs, and another midfielder.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Not at all.

What I am saying is play the kids at all costs. Chances are that by playing kids you will not get any wins on the board because of the inexperience factor. Also a lot of these kids are raw so there is a lot of development to come from these kids. Playing them now at all costs will somewhat fast track our rebuilding phase.

This way we will find out who is up to it and will be a part of our side for years to come or who is up to it and might not be needed but would provide a very valuable trading comodity. Whether we start rebuilding now or next year makes absolutely no difference to anyone. In fact startig it this year would mean that we will get out of this cycle quicker than if we start teh phase a year later.

I think we have already started the process.
Look at our team, and we have effectively 5 first year players:
Hentschell
Schuback
Jerricho
Hudson
Reilly (stretching it)

To my mind there isn't anyone in the SANFL, thats fit and in form, that we could bring up?

 

[Stiffy_18]

Re: Re: Decision time

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Our needs are: a FB, a nippy onballer (liptak type) to rove the packs, and another midfielder.

You don't think we need a ruckman??????

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
I think we have already started the process.
Look at our team, and we have effectively 5 first year players:
Hentschell
Schuback
Jerricho
Hudson
Reilly (stretching it)

To my mind there isn't anyone in the SANFL, thats fit and in form, that we could bring up?

There is Bock and Rutten and Watts are not far away. Both played well but need a bit more match fitness. If Krueger gets over his back injury he would most likely be given a game towards the end fo the year.

Yes we are playing a fair few kids but we could play more and my question was whether to go with "proven" players that have done the job in the past or do we play youngsters at every cost.

Short term pain for a long term gain.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Re: Re: Re: Decision time

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
You don't think we need a ruckman??????

Unfotunately, despite all the drafting of big fellas last draft, we still need a ruckman.
Hears my thinking Psst keep it quit though
Biglands cant play football.

So at 26 (or there abouts) lets trade him and a player for a high draft pick, in the hope of securing a ruckman. A high draft picked ruckman is likely to be available to play AFL in year 2. Clarke will go an extra year, Hudson is good and improving.
Andrews is playing reserves, so hes along way off.

 

[macca23]

Re: Re: Re: Decision time

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
You don't think we need a ruckman??????

Or at least one KPP up forward???

Watts will be CHF in time. Jericho showed that he's going to be very good, but a strong marking FF wouldn't go astray would it??

Jericho would then become the 3rd leading and marking forward. Very very dangerous in that role.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Decision time

Originally posted by macca23
Or at least one KPP up forward???

Watts will be CHF in time. Jericho showed that he's going to be very good, but a strong marking FF wouldn't go astray would it??

Jericho would then become the 3rd leading and marking forward. Very very dangerous in that role.

Talking to a few people, AFC have pencilled Krueger down for a key forward position. The only question is if he will get over his back injury. Back is causing some serious concern at West Lakes but lately Josh is responding to treatment well and has already started swimming a bit of running.

Tall forwards are always at a premium so you can never have too many of them. One more wouldn't go astray as a bit of a security.

Watts, Krueger and Jericho can really provide us with potentially deadly forward line down the track. We also need some nippy scrumbers. Oppotunistic goal sneaks

We need a bit of everything. It looks like that this draft is good for talls so we might as well go and pick the best available.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Decision time

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Unfotunately, despite all the drafting of big fellas last draft, we still need a ruckman.
Hears my thinking Psst keep it quit though
Biglands cant play football.

So at 26 (or there abouts) lets trade him and a player for a high draft pick, in the hope of securing a ruckman. A high draft picked ruckman is likely to be available to play AFL in year 2. Clarke will go an extra year, Hudson is good and improving.
Andrews is playing reserves, so hes along way off.

Firstly I doubt that Clarke will play on for another year. Secondly you are not going to get a great deal for Biglands.

Even if you couple him with another player you are not going to get a high draft pick. Remember quality for quality rather than quantity for quality