Define GUN

[The Griffenator]

What makes a gun player?

In so many threads, people throw the word "GUN" around way too freely. For example (and why i started this thread) in one current thread, some Hawks fans are calling Mark Williams a gun.

In their defence, he had a great year, 63 goals from 19 games (is what i have been told) but is he a gun?

At the start of the 2005 year, was he even a certain member of the hawks line up?

Does one good/great year make a gun player?

Im of the opinion a gun needs to consistently perform over 2 to 3 seasons. For me GUN is the best name to call a player, so from a Hawks fan point of view, EVERITT is a GUN, to put Mark Williams in the same category is insulting Everitt.

Now to the team i know best, the dogs. I think West is a GUN, Johnson is a GUN.
Grant used to be and is now a legend, but he isnt a gun anymore.
Cooney is close and if 06 is better than 05, he should graduate into GUN class.

Now all the Hawks fans will start up, having a go at me, but here is a list of players that had similar years last year to Williams, that are not guns either.
Russel Robertson - similar stats to Williams with more team mates to take goals off him.
Daniel Cross - led the comp in handballs, 9th in disposals over all.
Frasier Gehrig- tough call, but there are a lot of players at the saints better than him, they cant all be guns can they?
Stephen Milne - remarkable similar stats 2.7 goals (SM) to 3.3 goals (MW)
8.9 kicks (SM) to 7.4 kicks (MW) 2.6 h/b (SM) to 1.05 (MW) 3.8 marks (SM) to 4.5 marks (MW) 1.5 tackles (SM) to 1.3 tackles (MW) average per game. Milne is more consistent, over more years than Williams, is Milne a gun?

Im not just having a go at Williams (he could be a GUN in a few years) Im using him as an example.

So... how do you define a GUN and who are the gun players at your team?

 

[Jack-Packenham]

Gun = Judd

 

[JeffDunne]

Frasier Gehrig- tough call, but there are a lot of players at the saints better than him, they cant all be guns can they??

We'd like to think so.

 

[dipper86]

Now all the Hawks fans will start up, having a go at me, but here is a list of players that had similar years last year to Williams, that are not guns either.
Russel Robertson - similar stats to Williams with more team mates to take goals off him.

Not a good call there, You could also argue the point that Williams had no support therefore taking the best backman and also being double and tripple teamed.

I'm not saying he is a gun, but to discredit Williams performance because he didn't have the support that Robertson had is just plain ignorant.

Do you discredit Lockett because he didn't have people taking goals away from him compared to Dunstall and the Hawthorn sides of the 80's.

 

[Zeke]

 

[dipper86]

i think your confused Zeke!!! the thread is about defining a gun, not a dud.

 

[cs61]

I would say Robetson, and Gehric are most definately guns. Robertson should have been all australian, and gehric has kicked a heap of goals consistently.

Williams isn't an A grade player yet, but that season he had would have him a high B+ I reckon. Another one or two seasons like that and he'll definately be a 'gun'.

 

[Chewy]

A Gun is a weapon. Someone who makes a difference. someone who can seriously play. Someone whom every other team in the league would be more than happy to pick up on the open market.

Mark Williams is not a modestly-talented journeyman footballer. He has something special about him. No one is calling him a champion; they are just calling him a gun. He is. What's the problem with that ?

Why are people so petty minded ?

Yes there are better footballers than Williams. They are all guns too.

 

[The Griffenator]

Not a good call there, You could also argue the point that Williams had no support therefore taking the best backman and also being double and tripple teamed.

I'm not saying he is a gun, but to discredit Williams performance because he didn't have the support that Robertson had is just plain ignorant.

Do you discredit Lockett because he didn't have people taking goals away from him compared to Dunstall and the Hawthorn sides of the 80's.

As a fan that supports a team that is based around the small forward, I would say that small forwards create miss-matches for the bigger, best defender. Also I do believe it would be harder to kick goals if your not the main focal point of the team.
To compare Williams to Lockett seems a little much, Lockett would take the best defender on his merits, Willaims can run them around.
Im not too sure i can rememder a team ever triple teaming Mark Williams, third man in etc is something all forwards deal with.
Williams had a great year, no doubt, no question, but you seem to agree with me that he is not a gun

 

[The Griffenator]

I would say Robetson, and Gehric are most definately guns. Robertson should have been all australian, and gehric has kicked a heap of goals consistently.

Williams isn't an A grade player yet, but that season he had would have him a high B+ I reckon. Another one or two seasons like that and he'll definately be a 'gun'.

if you admit he is not an A grader, how is he a gun? What do you rate the A graders? Everitt, Hodge.

Not sure all teams would chase him, but he is servicable, depending on cost, maybe your right. A gun ie Riewoldt, teams would move heaven and earth for, Williams is not there yet

 

[Chewy]

Im not too sure i can rememder a team ever triple teaming Mark Williams, third man in etc is something all forwards deal with.

You quite obviously didn't watch many Hawthorn games. He was our focal point. Everyone knew it and so in the 2nd half of the year, he constantly had 2 or more extras defenders making life impossible for him.

Don't post things if you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[The Griffenator]

I would say Robetson, and Gehric are most definately guns. Robertson should have been all australian, and gehric has kicked a heap of goals consistently.

Williams isn't an A grade player yet, but that season he had would have him a high B+ I reckon. Another one or two seasons like that and he'll definately be a 'gun'.

well said, one or two more years of the same, I will be the first to say he is a gun.

If Gehrig is a gun, the saints have a hell of a lot of guns... maybe they do

 

[The Griffenator]

You quite obviously didn't watch many Hawthorn games. He was our focal point. Everyone knew it and so in the 2nd half of the year, he constantly had 2 or more extras defenders making life impossible for him.

Don't post things if you don't know what you are talking about.

So why didnt the free man get the ball?
By the way, i said i dont remember, never siad it never happened.
I dont doubt the third man in aspect, most defenders use this tactic.

 

[rick James]

A Gun is a weapon. Someone who makes a difference. someone who can seriously play. Someone whom every other team in the league would be more than happy to pick up on the open market.

Mark Williams is not a modestly-talented journeyman footballer. He has something special about him. No one is calling him a champion; they are just calling him a gun. He is. What's the problem with that ?

Why are people so petty minded ?

Yes there are better footballers than Williams. They are all guns too.

Best definition I've heard yet.

 

[cs61]

if you admit he is not an A grader, how is he a gun? What do you rate the A graders? Everitt, Hodge.

Not sure all teams would chase him, but he is servicable, depending on cost, maybe your right. A gun ie Riewoldt, teams would move heaven and earth for, Williams is not there yet

I don't think you judge a players worth by who would chase him. Shane Tuck is an A grader in my book, but hawks wouldn't bother chasing him because of who we have in the side (Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis, Crawford, Bateman... we need key positoin players not inside mids).

West Coast have a strong list, but would probably go after Mark Williams considering their lack of forwards and the big spaces of subiaco.

Anyone who makes All Australian in my book is a gun, including Gehric.

 

[dipper86]

As a fan that supports a team that is based around the small forward, I would say that small forwards create miss-matches for the bigger, best defender. Also I do believe it would be harder to kick goals if your not the main focal point of the team.

argh no its alot harder to kick goals when your the main focal point in a non existent forward line with no KPP in a poor side thats been finishing in the bottom bracket for the past 2 years.

To compare Williams to Lockett seems a little much, Lockett would take the best defender on his merits, Willaims can run them around.

I wasn't comparing the players i was comparing the logic in your argument.
Williams was taking the best defender full stop weather the defender was small or tall.

Im not too sure i can rememder a team ever triple teaming Mark Williams, third man in etc is something all forwards deal with.

Well obviousley you weren't watching Williams or Hawthorn enough, because he was getting double and tripple teamed.
When your the main focal point in a side you have to deal with the thrid man up, like you said, in Robertson's case he wasn't the main focal point and he had the support around him, which ultimatley left him in one on ones and a much more easier avenue to goal.

Williams had a great year, no doubt, no question, but you seem to agree with me that he is not a gun

Williams is very good player, but it takes more than one good year to be labelled a gun. Which i agree.

 

[kosi_23]

Nick Dal Santo = Gun

 

[The Griffenator]

Mark Williams is not a modestly-talented journeyman footballer. He has something special about him. No one is calling him a champion;

Maybe this is where we differ, to me there are shyte players, servicable players,kids with potential, good players, guns and legends (older blokes that were once guns ala Chris Grant, Rob Harvey).
I guess for me guns are champions, i would put Williams in the good player position. You seem to have champs then guns.

This wasnt meant as me against Mark Williams, thats happening in another thread, im more interested in what makes a gun? and who at your team you rate as a gun

 

[The Griffenator]

argh no its alot harder to kick goals when your the main focal point in a non existent forward line with no KPP in a poor side thats been finishing in the bottom bracket for the past 2 years.

Williams is very good player, but it takes more than one good year to be labelled a gun. Which i agree.

Well obviously i dont watch all the Hawks games, so fair enough maybe i missed it. I do recall Ryan Hargrave playing on Mark Williams in 05, not Brian Harris (who i regard as our best defender)

If he goes again in 06, i wil start the Mark Williams is a gun thread...
Now back to the issue

Define gun and who is a gun at your team?

 

[Coin_Toss]

Superstar = A footballer who has consistently been very good over many years. Bucks is a superstar.

Gun = A footballer who has shown glimpses, but hasn't reached his full potential. Didak is a gun.

That has always been the way I see it.

 

[Smokin_Joe]

So Andrew Lovett is a Gun?

 

[cs61]

Well obviously i dont watch all the Hawks games, so fair enough maybe i missed it. I do recall Ryan Hargrave playing on Mark Williams in 05, not Brian Harris (who i regard as our best defender)

If he goes again in 06, i wil start the Mark Williams is a gun thread...
Now back to the issue

Define gun and who is a gun at your team?

Hodge, Everitt, Crawford, Mitchell, Croad, 'guns' .

I used to have Smith in that category but has dropped off the last two years.

 

[The Griffenator]

Superstar = A footballer who has consistently been very good over many years. Bucks is a superstar.

Gun = A footballer who has shown glimpses, but hasn't reached his full potential. Didak is a gun.

That has always been the way I see it.

Bucks = superstar = legend no doubt

This one is for all those hawk fans out there

Didak makes Mark Williams look like a GUN, and we all know my thoughts on Williams.
The only time Didak looked like turning into a gun was when the pies could have traded him for Stevens. Port won out of that in hindsight, sure they got nothing for stevens, but at least they dont have Didak on there list!

 

[The Griffenator]

Hodge, Everitt, Crawford, Mitchell, Croad, 'guns' .

I used to have Smith in that category but has dropped off the last two years.

Agreed. But im am of the opinion that Mitchell may be hurt by these new rules. I hope not personally, didnt like the way the league was heading when athletes were getting picked before footballers

 

[The Griffenator]

Gun = A footballer who has shown glimpses, but hasn't reached his full potential.
That has always been the way I see it.

So through that,
Ottens = gun,
Andrew Walker (remember his first game, showed a glimpse) = gun,
Cross = Gun
Roughhead = Gun
Franklin = gun
Medhurst = Gun
Remember Gilbert McAdam, he started on fire, definite glimpses = gun

seems a little bit easy to become a gun!

come to think of it, nearly every player on the saints list had shown something.... GUNS