Autopsy Derby 49: Too much weights, not enough speed work. - Rd 4, 2019

[Cesoir]

Conca made two monumental kicking **** ups but apart from that his game was actually good I thought, used his body consistently well. I am surprised people didn't notice the good stuff.

On the opposition I disagree with those saying Mundy was BOG, Hurn was clearly the best player out there. Deserved winner.

I had zero respect for Shuey before so am not surprised at all to see him flop forward with every contest trying to milk a free. But to see actual stars like JK do it too, far out, it's embarrassing. That free he got in the last when the ball went miles over his head and he leapt forward like superman was appalling. But fair to the umps, most of the night they didn't fall for this crap and we got a good run. If that game had different umpires paying those fraudulent frees we'd be sitting here having lost by 50 points.

Haha, nice one Square Peg

 

[fnerd]

we had 86 intercepts last night and kept them to 10 goals. Anyone that thinks the Eagles win that game because they had a whole bunch of 'effective' sideways and backwards kicks is silly goose. We absolutely constricted their gameplan, in fact that's possibly the best we have defended against that Hawks chip kick game.

The thing is now the anti ross brigade have got so worked up that “any” defensive strategies or moves the team does are now seen as a total negative and a return to the dark old days.
It’s like unless we’re in 100+ point shoot outs every game (and at this stage likely losing )we’re “failing “.

So before the game People were simply hoping to not get smashed by the eagles last night.
Ross structures and strategies saw us fall 2 goals short of a full strength reigning premier (even better than they were when Winning the flag) AND in good form while we were clearly missing key players ,- yet now after the fact the team is a shambles and Not improving, I just don’t get it.

Hate to break it to people but defensive mechanisms and pressure around the ball are imperative to ANY team having ambitions of wanting to go deep in September .
Show me a poor defensive/pressure team that’s gone well during the finals??

ALL teams push up the ground ALL teams like to employ manic pressure on the ball carrier.
It’s a fundamental part of the modern game.

What do people think is WC (a widely recognised attacking team)main strength is?
I’ll give you tip it ain’t their attack.

The team is clearly trying to be a more attacking by taking the game on at most opportunities and using the corridor, going forwards at every chance.
But teams are just not going to let you do that all the time
Especially ones as good as defensively as the eagles(one of the best)
Our offence is still clearly a work in progress with all the new additions

If people want to melt then melt over our skills and decision making.
If we’re to truly challenge then they must improve, markedly so too.
There’s no escaping it we must be better.

 

[Rion]

The thing that gives me hope Rion is that even our really skilful players are making basic skill errors. Dave Mundy butchered the ball on a number of occasions when under little pressure. Sonny missed a very gettable shot at goal which basically set the tone for the rest of the match. These are not ball-butchers, they are highly skilled players who are over thinking things rather than just playing on instinct. Once everyone settles down and understands what is required I think you will see a lot less of these clangers and much more creative ball use from our good ball users. When Stephen Hill comes back in we will have some really good users pumping the ball into the forwards - Mundy, Hill, Hill, Walters, Cerra, Wilson, Ryan, Duman, Tucker. They have the skills already, they just need to settle down and take some time with their disposal. Norths allowed us to do that and we saw the results.

Fair enough and I hope you're right. Bit worrying though that Mundy is pretty much at the end and atm it's looking like S.Hill might be close to it as well. I'm confident in those you've listed but that's only 9/22. I'm not sure guys like Colyer, Conca, Brayshaw, Hughes, Matera, Langdon, Pearce, Hamling, Blakely and Fyfe are really going to improve much. And then guys with poor disposal like Giro, Crowden and Banfield are front of the pack knocking on the door at Peel.

We're passed the days where you're able just to get it into the hands of players with good skills and be fine. Everyone needs em. Now maybe those I've mentioned will improve but considering our own coach seems to think skills aren't teachable I reckon you've got to be a little worried. You're just wasting your time teaching game-plans if players can't even execute simple 15m passes/kick goals from 30m out directly in front.

 

[Hazelsnuts]

Did anyone else notice how quiet the Eagles crowd got in the last two quarters? The fact is the were shitting themselves because they knew we had by far the better of it. As for the free kick count, it highlights how much our blue and gold rivals miss Margetts. Razor Ray may like the limelight but he doesn't let players take the piss.



For some composure comes with experience - Tucker, Brayshaw, Cerra, Hughes, Switta, Shultz, Duman and Pearce are still on a pretty steep learning curve. None of Tabs, Hogan or Cam Mac have played a 100 games so all of these guys can be expected show some improvement with ball in hand. And before everyone jumps on the Colyer/Conca quinella I know that some blokes struggle with composure and skills their whole career. My point is that as a group we should improve.

Mid 3rd quarter onwards was awesome, bottom lips dropping and bitchy talk everywhere around us by slime supporters.
We had a few by then and we were letting em know we we’re coming- we knew we were still pushing s**t up hill but it was great entertainment to have a derby where we could get involved.
The looks of disdain from the Eagles supporters at our crew of 4 was hilarious- let em know a few home truths.
Tongue in cheek call saying “Gaff the victim” wasn’t well received - easily upset that mob.

 

[Bicco]

If you’re happy with our forwards working hard when our star forward only gets 1 goal, whereas Kennedy gets 3 and Darling 3 even when they were very quiet, then by all means.
I’m just highlighting forwards within our structure having to be more defensive then usual. It’s not exactly a secret of Ross’.

We’ve played three games with this forward line. Averaging 61.66. That’s no secret. Hogan has kicked 1 goal in three games. Does that not worry you? Even with the forward line we have, Ross still can’t have a gameplan that can kick a high score. He’s coaching Hogan out of his potential. Forcing him to do more defensively, and pushing numbers high up the ground. Plus this bomb it at all cost. Look at West coast’s ball movement. Sure they were pressured, but how often was Kennedy marking on the chest without a defender around him? It’s a massive difference. But hey effort before skills right..

Of course I'm dissapointed we weren't accurate when looking to score. As a unit though our 3 big forwards kicked 5.3 to WC 6.3. Tabs had a few complete misses.
Kennedy and Darling didn't have quiet games at all. Kennedy 12 touches , 6 marks. Darking 13 & 2. Where as Hogan had 13 & 8 and McCarthy 10 & 2. So all were pretty even, Tabs being the outlier.
What do you think Hogans potential is? Its certainly not a stay at home forward as you appear to be suggesting, ask any Dees supporter.
How many marks did Kennedy take unopposed? I dont know, but from memory 2. Thats one more than than each of our boys. Hardly a dominating performance or proof of a failing gameplan.

 

[Sweetback]

Switta was not a debutante, he played last year.

Conca, Colyer, Schultz, Hogan and Lobb are the debutantes that come to mind this year.

I guess I was only asking to see who we had eligible for the Rising Star. So far I think it’s only Switta.

 

[wayToGo_]

I guess I was only asking to see who we had eligible for the Rising Star. So far I think it’s only Switta.

Shultz the only one to debut this year - he is over 21yo so not eligible for RS. Switta only played 2 games last year but also ineligible because he's 22. So far only Duman is eligible - having played under 10 last year and still under 21.

 

[Freeeoo]

The thing is now the anti ross brigade have got so worked up that “any” defensive strategies or moves the team does are now seen as a total negative and a return to the dark old days.
It’s like unless we’re in 100+ point shoot outs every game (and at this stage likely losing )we’re “failing “.

So before the game People were simply hoping to not get smashed by the eagles last night.
Ross structures and strategies saw us fall 2 goals short of a full strength reigning premier (even better than they were when Winning the flag) AND in good form while we were clearly missing key players ,- yet now after the fact the team is a shambles and Not improving, I just don’t get it.

Hate to break it to people but defensive mechanisms and pressure around the ball are imperative to ANY team having ambitions of wanting to go deep in September .
Show me a poor defensive/pressure team that’s gone well during the finals??

ALL teams push up the ground ALL teams like to employ manic pressure on the ball carrier.
It’s a fundamental part of the modern game.

What do people think is WC (a widely recognised attacking team)main strength is?
I’ll give you tip it ain’t their attack.

The team is clearly trying to be a more attacking by taking the game on at most opportunities and using the corridor, going forwards at every chance.
But teams are just not going to let you do that all the time
Especially ones as good as defensively as the eagles(one of the best)
Our offence is still clearly a work in progress with all the new additions

If people want to melt then melt over our skills and decision making.
If we’re to truly challenge then they must improve, markedly so too.
There’s no escaping it we must be better.

POTW

 

[rgauci]

Early in the 2nd quarter Tabs attempts to soccer a goal and scores a point. Shortly after he yells “* up”...

Was it directed at Walters or an Eagles defender?

 

[schnoods]

Still not a fan of high and long down the line so McGovern and Hurn can pick off the mark.

When we lowered the eyes running into 50 we hit players on the chest to shoot from 35m out, which got us back in.

If we could get Hogan more set shots inside 50, we would be dangerous. Beautiful straight set shot.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I'm clearly more on the positive side of the supporters at the moment but man I'm even more annoyed at dropping that GC game.

We should be 3-1 having been in a position where we should have beaten the premiers had it not been for poor kicking in front of goal.

Would been a great position confidence and points wise to push for finals.

2-2 with the run we have now just makes it so much harder

 

[tonygeeks]

As with most things concerning glen jakovich , the most important thing to remember is glen jakovich.

He couldn’t even get the eagles best players right.

Agree regarding Sheppard, especially as a lockdown defender, can really curb the leagues most dangerous small to medium fwds. Very underated.
That said he wouldve just made top 5 for eagles let alone the ground.

As for redden I was amazed he had as much of the ball . He was nigh on invisible and like your say lucky to be top 10

Ah .... *27 @ 100% is a bloody good game under any metric , some were ' easy ' kicks no doubt but you don't see that every week

*If it's true I don't look at stats much but it's just something I saw someone else post


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[hoss]

Think this team is going to gel by Wk 7 or 8. Liked the idea of going in small. Darcy still seems underdone and Meek or Jones not putting their hands up.

Brayshaw is definitely building. Poor disposal at times but there were still 6 or 7 worse in that regard. Good to see he was 2nd in clearances and contested possession behind Barra. Interesting that he did that with only 69 mins on ground too.

Can't wait to have Fyfe and Blakeley back in beast mode. Have given up on S Hill.

On Pixel 2 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Nolo180]

Early in the 2nd quarter Tabs attempts to soccer a goal and scores a point. Shortly after he yells “**** up”...

Was it directed at Walters or an Eagles defender?

I thought it was to barrass???

 

[PowerToThePurpl]

Effort and spirit was there, could’ve rolled over and strolled to a 50 point loss after half time but we dug in and gave a crack with Hamling down the crowd against us.

Playing group just needs time to gel, West Coast had an average of 40 more games played than ours and over a whole year older in age, the core of our list is almost set in stone but now just need more time and games to build chemistry. We won’t be seeing 4 or 5 changes per week like we’ve had the last few years; Walters, Taberner and Mundy were the only 3 players last night who played Round 1 2016. AFL grade football is a damn tough sport and it takes a lot of understanding of your teammates to execute skills that sets you above the rest of the competition, which won the Eagles a premiership last year.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Last night was 4 points wasted.

Nevertheless there is a lot to like about our play this year. I love the way that even though we were struggling to retain the ball players didn't go into their shells: they still tried to move the ball quickly and use the corridor. I reckon that is a sign of "buy in" to the overall strategy.

So for me, right now has the feeling of 2012 about it, and I'm more confident than I was pre-season that we can get to 12 wins and say 7th or 8th to play finals. Against lesser teams we will win quite a few games. (And like I said should have done the deal last night.)

However ... the poor skill level can't just be explained away as the team needing more time to gel or the oppo pressure or the footy gods.

We have a track record of being a poorly skilled side. There is no evidence that skills will "naturally" improve as the team "gels". The collective needs to take responsibility for our kicking and be proactive about improving it. Good kicking won't just happen one day by magic.

No-one expects perfection but 7.14 is terrible, especially when you lose by 13 points.

 

[Cesoir]

Fair enough and I hope you're right. Bit worrying though that Mundy is pretty much at the end and atm it's looking like S.Hill might be close to it as well. I'm confident in those you've listed but that's only 9/22. I'm not sure guys like Colyer, Conca, Brayshaw, Hughes, Matera, Langdon, Pearce, Hamling, Blakely and Fyfe are really going to improve much. And then guys with poor disposal like Giro, Crowden and Banfield are front of the pack knocking on the door at Peel.

We're passed the days where you're able just to get it into the hands of players with good skills and be fine. Everyone needs em. Now maybe those I've mentioned will improve but considering our own coach seems to think skills aren't teachable I reckon you've got to be a little worried. You're just wasting your time teaching game-plans if players can't even execute simple 15m passes/kick goals from 30m out directly in front.

I know where you're coming from mate, and I guess it's a bit of a "wait and see". The point I was making was that it's everyone making blues, even the really highly skilled guys. I think a lot of that is from rushing and not quite being "automatic" yet with what they are trying to do. I remember laughing at guys like Masten, Sheppard, Hutchings, Yeo etc. a few years ago because their skills were terrible. Did their skills improve that much or are they now playing a game that they fully understand and they are confident in what they need to do at any time - i.e. not over thinking it.

I have said it before, but we had a bunch of absolute donkeys skills wise in 2012 - 2015, guys like Dawson, Pearce, DeBoer, Sheridan, Suttcliffe and company, but we were still a bloody good side. I think every side has a blend of highly skilled players, speedy players, tough players and freakish players but if they are all on the same page it can work.

We are definitely not yet on the same page, in fact I sometimes wonder if we're even reading the same book

 

[wild side]

Conca kicking out of defence with 54 seconds to go, straight to Allen, 11 points the difference!
Why on earth did he not go down the line to knock it over on the wing. He played on as well, which he didn't need to!!

 

[StingBitten]

It's just about expectation. The Eagles are the premiers, they are a well oiled machine and everyone knows the game-plan and how their teammates play.
Their game-style has been kryptonite for us since Simpson got them humming.
We have a bunch of new players are the club who have never played together, guys out of confidence like Hogan, Wilson, Brayshaw and McCarthy who's only just getting going properly as a footballer. We were missing our captain who is arguably the best player in the game, Hill, Blakely, Logue, Sandi étc.
They got the jump and looked like they would thrash us but our team really dug deep and controlled more of the game in the second half. We started to find ways to score, hit a few forwards on the lead, defended really well, stopped the Eagles easy transition from the back half.
I could go on but I saw a lot to like, the highlight of which is Hogan finally found himself. He's a bull and with McCarthy we actually have 2 really good forwards.
Swita belongs at the level, did some really classy things so there is another good one. This is the first game I've thought Matera might actually be useful going forward.
I thought we'd lose by 100. This was beyond anything I thought we could put together against them.
I'm predicting some good footy as they year goes on. There is something to work with and as the players gell a bit we'll worry a lot of sides. Especially as Hogan starts bossing it down forward. That will change the whole zeitgeist of our forward line.

E Shed it's posts like this why I keep visiting Bigfooty.

I must ask you though, does this mean you've changed your views on Ross as coach? I'm aware that optimism on the side isn't the same as optimism with the coach.

I was happy with the game too, yet today I sit musing thinking everything will be better once we:

- Fix our skills and ball-use
- Correct our forward structure and game-plan.
- Have a healthy and fit breadth of players we can choose 22 players from.

Then realized I'd gone through the same routine the morning after we lost the home Derby in 2015.

 

[apuchar]

E Shed it's posts like this why I keep visiting Bigfooty.

I must ask you though, does this mean you've changed your views on Ross as coach? I'm aware that optimism on the side isn't the same as optimism with the coach.

I was happy with the game too, yet today I sit musing thinking everything will be better once we:

- Fix our skills and ball-use
- Correct our forward structure and game-plan.
- Have a healthy and fit breadth of players we can choose 22 players from.

Then realized I'd gone through the same routine the morning after we lost the home Derby in 2015.

Ha Ha

 

[Rion]

I know where you're coming from mate, and I guess it's a bit of a "wait and see". The point I was making was that it's everyone making blues, even the really highly skilled guys. I think a lot of that is from rushing and not quite being "automatic" yet with what they are trying to do. I remember laughing at guys like Masten, Sheppard, Hutchings, Yeo etc. a few years ago because their skills were terrible. Did their skills improve that much or are they now playing a game that they fully understand and they are confident in what they need to do at any time - i.e. not over thinking it.

I have said it before, but we had a bunch of absolute donkeys skills wise in 2012 - 2015, guys like Dawson, Pearce, DeBoer, Sheridan, Suttcliffe and company, but we were still a bloody good side. I think every side has a blend of highly skilled players, speedy players, tough players and freakish players but if they are all on the same page it can work.

We are definitely not yet on the same page, in fact I sometimes wonder if we're even reading the same book

Yeah the Eags structure definitely has improved em massively. They control the ball so much, reduce pressure and hence the lesser skilled players aren't required to do as much.

Issue we might have is that our direct style of play could do the opposite, exposing the lesser skilled players who can't hit targets. Hitting a player 15m away under little pressure ain't too bad, trying to correctly weight a kick to the advantage of a player 40m away as we charge full tilt out of defence might be a tad more difficult. Given a greater understanding of the game-plan I'm sure the S.Hill/Walters types can make that pass but I'm not sure the Conca/Colyer types can. Unfortunately I don't think in the current game you can carry the Conca/Colyer/Dawson/Pearce/Sutcliffe types (DeBoer and Sheridan aren't actually bad kicks imo), 2012-2015 is a while ago now.

Anyway looking forward to seeing how it develops. Bedding down the game-plan/team should help, we're just yet to see how much.

 

[UYD 4 Life]

Yeah the Eags structure definitely has improved em massively. They control the ball so much, reduce pressure and hence the lesser skilled players aren't required to do as much.

Issue we might have is that our direct style of play could do the opposite, exposing the lesser skilled players who can't hit targets. Hitting a player 15m away under little pressure ain't too bad, trying to correctly weight a kick to the advantage of a player 40m away as we charge full tilt out of defence might be a tad more difficult. Given a greater understanding of the game-plan I'm sure the S.Hill/Walters types can make that pass but I'm not sure the Conca/Colyer types can. Unfortunately I don't think in the current game you can carry the Conca/Colyer/Dawson/Pearce/Sutcliffe types (DeBoer and Sheridan aren't actually bad kicks imo), 2012-2015 is a while ago now.

Anyway looking forward to seeing how it develops. Bedding down the game-plan/team should help, we're just yet to see how much.

My hope is that Conca, Colyer Hughes and Tabs are placeholders until Cerra, Sturt, Logue and Cox force there way past them. Then they can offer good depth cover for us

 

[fnerd]

Anyway looking forward to seeing how it develops. Bedding down the game-plan/team should help, we're just yet to see how much.

This is the million dollar question and I think the most important single issue concerning our team going forward.

It’s becoming pretty clear (not to all tho) how the coaching staff want us play offensively.
And with Ross you can guarantee our defensive mechanisms should be sound.( seems we’re returning to the manic pressure levels of 12-15)

To take the next step tho, one that will see us be able to match it with best teams in September our skills/decision making just MUST improve.
I don’t expect to be playing champagne football all through finals (because that’s impossible for any team)but our skills have to stand up for certain amount times and passages of play as to get reward for effort AND put scoreboard pressure on our opposition.

Now whether simply getting our structures and game plan down pat leads to this enough for the above to happen ,as Rion said is yet to be determined.

I do know tho we still have some key recruiting to do to phase the likes of colyer/Conca/Hughes etc and potentially even Langdon out of the side for us to make that next step quicker.

It’s also definitely an area Ross just can’t simply ignore,how much he actually does /or dedicated the squad to skills training as opposed to what he tells the media I’m not sure(I understand there’s only so much time that can be spent on this due to players recovery,fitness,structures etc) but going by our obvious, lack of , skills over the years their definitely needs to be more attention to it and as the game plan becomes more ingrained I would very much hope this becomes the case.

Even if we only see a 5-10% improvement across the board in skills it’s a definite worth while practice, where one dropped mark , one errant kick can cost you GF

 

[purplerunsdeep2]

Where we are at risk of is attacking and not being in a position to get into a defensive structure if there is a quick turnaround. What was pleasing is we only got caught out a couple of times


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[FreoMonocle]

That's basically his whole mantra, effort/structures over skill... I just don't understand it. He must see that we're one of the worst skilled sides in the comp, why is that?

I'm loving this direct style of play but unless we sort out the skills we're going no where. Teams like WC will always have the wood on us because their game-plan allows them so much more control over the contest. If we don't get reward from all this direct play we'll just be run off our feet because we've got no ability to slow down/control the game.

Hmmm...

2013 to 2015 we went the hard slog, high pressure because we didn't have enough skills in the team to be like our slick and skillful uncontested opponents.

Fast forward to now. We have assembled some talents, but they aren't ready yet. Cerra will be a gun midfielder, but if we put him there now and only get 15-20 possessions the whole team get's crucified for it because he is not ready yet and needs to build his tank and craft (and he will). Darcy - will be a gun, is nowhere near ready yet etc.

The skill of a kick or handball depends as much on the person you are passing to as the person passing, if both the receiver and the deliverer are out by a small amount it makes the likelihood of the opposition stuffing you up higher. Tank, man body vs boy body, experience are factors that matter which is a reality against reining premiers.

Talent is one thing, but it is tempered with experience. We played the Wiggles match with too much haste and not enough speed, bummed out our control of the ball, but also bummed them out for their control of the ball. Coming into this game where no one would credibly have expected a win, we tried to win ugly rather than nice. We were never going to win on our terms, we tried to change the terms, eg make it ugly, make them turn the ball over instead of having easy uncontested possession, make them hear imaginary footsteps behind them.

But in saying that, with some time to build kids bodies into mens bodies and putting experience into the team, we will play the game on our terms in the future. We will be passing to Hogan with some exquisite passages of play leading to a goal, the team with it's huge turnover in the last 3 years just needs to gel and for the kids to develop.