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List Mgmt. Derek Hine/List Management

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Winston_Smith

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First up, I will admit I have in the past been a major cheerleader for Derek Hine and his team's prowess in relation to drafting, trading, and even cherry-picking talent from non-football sources. However...

Our poor disposal, mainly by foot, but also increasingly by hand, is the Achilles heel which has been killing us since we cleaned out our experienced players at end of 2012. No awesome game plan, no supreme fitness level, no footy smarts, no disciplined structure, and no leading teams Gen Y "we're all leaders" bullsh** can compensate for a team that simply can't kick straight and can't handball to advantage.

I'm going to take some heat for pointing a bone at a man who is a hero of our club, a man who has undeniable ability in identifying talent (a veritable "untouchable", if you will) and more-so considering I'm new here and I've had a few Bourbons since the final siren of our loss to the Suns tonight, however these most basic of foot and hand skills we seem deficient in are developed between the ages of 6-15, and are already on display and trackable at all footballing levels monitored by our highly paid list management team.

I look at Hawthorn, and I see a bunch of slender, middling sized, private-school-boy-type, average talent players, who all have pin-point kicking and handballing accuracy under pressure, and furthermore superior pace. Gunston, Bruest, Schoenmakers, Hill, Burgoyne, etc. These guys are tearing up the park already, but wait until they get muscle mass on their frames and experience under their belts.

Is it possible that our poor disposal is the result of poor recruiting decisions? Are we focusing too much on size and athleticism, such as recruiting 211cm Frankensteins from the USA who have never touched a football in their life simply because they are big and can run a bit, and not enough on simple poise and accuracy with football in hand? Or, are we simply not developing our disposal skills behind the scenes? Are we focusing too much on contested ball and structures, but not enough on pure kicking and handpass accuracy at training/VFL developmental level?

Or is it our lack of training under real pressure that kills us? It seems to me our kicking and handballing has become woeful when we are under heat. Any military training worth its salt teaches its soldiers to perform under pressure by recreating a battlefield environment in training; trains them to keep a steady hand and fire straight when bullets are whizzing by. My junior footy coach used to swing a loud clicking thing (klaxon?) when we were lining up for a set shot to simulate pressure. Are we not doing something similar in our training? Is that why Cloke can't kick from 15m out when the crowd are jeering?

They are not ready:


Proper Readiness:



Interested to read your opinions.
 
Last edited:
I'd like to roast this thread. Hine is not responsible for tonight's effort.
He put together a premiership list just a few years ago.
Since then it has been our coaching staffs decision to bring in Young, Lynch, Russell, Armstrong & Clarke.
We have moved on Wellingham, Dawes, Thomas & Shaw. If our list is weaker in 2014 it's a no brainer why.
It may improve because of the draft picks we got, but compare the experienced players lost compared to the replacements & it's easy to see why we are worse in 2014, & it isn't Dekkers doing.
 

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He put together a premiership list just a few years ago.
Would you agree or disagree the game has changed since 2009/10 and recruiters need to adapt accordingly? Would you laud or denigrate Mick Malthouse's performance at Carlton? Has he changed as the game has changed, or is he trying to recreate Collingwood 2010 v2.0?
 
Would you agree or disagree the game has changed since 2009/10 and recruiters need to adapt accordingly? Would you laud or denigrate Mick Malthouse's performance at Carlton? Has he changed as the game has changed, or is he trying to recreate Collingwood 2010 v2.0?

Yes the game has changed & Hine has proven he can pick whatever the coach wants him to.
I see no reason the coaching staff are getting a free ride & Dekker needs to take the heat.
Which team is easily the worst at defending kick outs? Which team likes to zone off while the other teams pin point passes to team mates without pressure?
That is coaching structures not recruiting. In my opinion we should have interviewed every possible coach that was remotely available when we decided Mick was done. We were in a premiership window ffs.
 
First up, I will admit I have in the past been a major cheerleader for Derek Hine and his team's prowess in relation to drafting, trading, and even cherry-picking talent from non-football sources. However...

Our poor disposal, mainly by foot, but also increasingly by hand, is the Achilles heel which has been killing us since we cleaned out our experienced players at end of 2012. No awesome game plan, no supreme fitness level, no footy smarts, no disciplined structure, and no leading teams Gen Y "we're all leaders" bullsh** can compensate for a team that simply can't kick straight and can't handball to advantage.

I'm going to take some heat for pointing a bone at a man who is a hero of our club, a man who has undeniable ability in identifying talent (a veritable "untouchable", if you will) and more-so considering I'm new here and I've had a few Bourbons since the final siren of our loss to the Suns tonight, however these most basic of foot and hand skills we seem deficient in are developed between the ages of 6-15, and are already on display and trackable at all footballing levels monitored by our highly paid list management team.

I look at Hawthorn, and I see a bunch of slender, middling sized, private-school-boy-type, average talent players, who all have pin-point kicking and handballing accuracy under pressure, and furthermore superior pace. Gunston, Bruest, Schoenmakers, Hill, Burgoyne, etc. These guys are tearing up the park already, but wait until they get muscle mass on their frames and experience under their belts.

Is it possible that our poor disposal is the result of poor recruiting decisions? Are we focusing too much on size and athleticism, such as recruiting 211cm Frankensteins from the USA who have never touched a football in their life simply because they are big and can run a bit, and not enough on simple poise and accuracy with football in hand? Or, are we simply not developing our disposal skills behind the scenes? Are we focusing too much on contested ball and structures, but not enough on pure kicking and handpass accuracy at training/VFL developmental level?

Or is it our lack of training under real pressure that kills us? It seems to me our kicking and handballing has become woeful when we are under heat. Any military training worth its salt teaches its soldiers to perform under pressure by recreating a battlefield environment in training; trains them to keep a steady hand and fire straight when bullets are whizzing by. My junior footy coach used to swing a loud clicking thing (klaxon?) when we were lining up for a set shot to simulate pressure. Are we not doing something similar in our training? Is that why Cloke can't kick from 15m out when the crowd are jeering?

They are not ready:


Proper Readiness:



Interested to read your opinions.

tl;dr but sounds like you are angry at the development not the recruiting
 
Roasting the list managers for sh-t skills?

And yet Dekka has also brought in noted quality users in Scharenberg, Broomhead, Kennedy, Langdon, Fasolo, Seedsman, Oxley, Martin and Freeman, plus some decent users in Young and Russell (decent but not outstanding). Even Yagmoor and Armstrong could count as good users of the ball, even if they are ordinary/rubbish players.

Skills actually have been a focus of the past 3 or 4 drafts.

The roast should be directed at the coach who won't play these kids (or gives them the subs vest) and/or the medical and fitness staff who can't get/keep them on the park...
 
Yes the game has changed & Hine has proven he can pick whatever the coach wants him to.
I see no reason the coaching staff are getting a free ride & Dekker needs to take the heat.
Not giving a free ride to anyone, just asking the question of where our poor disposal is rooted. IMO basic gross motor skills are developed in the 6-14 year old period. If you can't kick and handball to a certain standard by the time you're 18 years old, then you never will be able to, and these things will be obvious to any recruiter. If Hine is picking players with strong skills, then it is indeed our development that is lacking, and perhaps more specifically our development of execution under pressure.
 
Go down the Hawthorn route only pick up players with very good skills over seeing hacks like Toovey turn it over constantly
 
We Drafted Scharanberg who suppose to be an Elite User of the Ball:eek:

But I agree the Settlement of this thread. Hine has not Drafted/Traded in many Good users of the ball
 
Go down the Hawthorn route only pick up players with very good skills over seeing hacks like Toovey turn it over constantly
This is what I've been saying for a long time.
We got too caught up in the culture of bringing in hacks and playing shit round the boundary football to compensate. Praising hack players for getting the best out of themselves and showing leadership when they have poor skills, and now when we are trying to catch up we are being exposed. Time to clear out the unko hacks once and for all and build a team with football skill.
 

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Not giving a free ride to anyone, just asking the question of where our poor disposal is rooted. IMO basic gross motor skills are developed in the 6-14 year old period. If you can't kick and handball to a certain standard by the time you're 18 years old, then you never will be able to, and these things will be obvious to any recruiter. If Hine is picking players with strong skills, then it is indeed our development that is lacking, and perhaps more specifically our development of execution under pressure.


I think you have a valid point on development. For how many years have we watched Cloke shank shots for goal? He still does.
Roughead used to be as bad for the Hawks. Now he rarely misses.
Bruest last year - 40 goals & 30 behinds - this year - 39 goals 4

My point is they are improving all the time. You can't say with confidence that we are.
 
Our player identification in the draft is one of and arguably the best in the business.

Our ability to identify talent on opposition lists is poor. Russell? Armstrong? White? Even to a lesser extent Adams.
We're just not identifying players with the necessary AFL quality talent and from a recruiting standpoint that is probably the area requiring additional work.

On our footskills specifically we have actually other than Marsh this year in recent seasons mostly drafted pretty good ball users. Ramsey and Kennedy both not ideal either last year. But then you have the Broomhead's, Scharenberg, Freeman. Then Fasolo has also missed time.

My issue from a footskills standpoint is the player development. Who on our list has really improved by foot? J.Thomas, Toovey, Williams and now Marsh are less bad than they were when drafted from a consistency standpoint but there are no guys who have added penetration, developed their vision, improved their decision making under pressure or learned how to lower their eyes other than Lumumba over who a little like what Seedsman does now - just blast away long every time.

As one example and I'm using him as an example because he's a volume accumulator. Beams. He's got a silky kicking action and pretty good finisher when within range for goal but in traffic he'll just get it onto his boot as quickly as he can without directing his kick then in space or after a mark he'll just kick long down the line to a contest rather than lower his eyes and identify and execute the pass to the open guy in best position. It's really surprising he hasn't become more of a playmaker who can find the best targets around the field in damaging positions and it's something you'd really like to see him learn to do some time soon.
 
Question- what foot skills does Darcy Moore have? Is he going to be any good? Surely some of it comes down to development? You take educated risks when drafting, yes? Some come on and some don't
 
If Dekka announced tomorrow night that he had signed with another team, everybody would be up in arms.
He has done an outstanding job identifying talent. Like Knightmare stated, it's the experienced players we are bringing in that would surely get the coaches nod that are doing my head in. None of them were good enough at their previous clubs. Why did we bring them to ours?
 
If Dekka announced tomorrow night that he had signed with another team, everybody would be up in arms.
He has done an outstanding job identifying talent. Like Knightmare stated, it's the experienced players we are bringing in that would surely get the coaches nod that are doing my head in. None of them were good enough at their previous clubs. Why did we bring them to ours?

Hine is a Great Drafter. It’s Trading I worry about. You can see many Trades that he has got Very Wrong
 
Hine is a Great Drafter. It’s Trading I worry about. You can see many Trades that he has got Very Wrong

Dave - Do you really think Hine would have been responsible for the trades & those names not go through Bucks?
 

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Dave - Do you really think Hine would have been responsible for the trades & those names not go through Bucks?

So then Bucks is Useless and Soon as we Sack him the Better?
 
So then Bucks is Useless and Soon as we Sack him the Better?

No - we have to let Dekker do his thing & stop picking up other teams discards. We could have had picks in those drafts that would have been much better than the rejects we ended up with.
 
No - we have to let Dekker do his thing & stop picking up other teams discards. We could have had picks in those drafts that would have been much better than the rejects we ended up with.

So trade away for more High Draft Picks then?
 
Here is another thought. Perhaps if we are intending to trade, we could trade for someone who has already proven to be a good player?
We only trade for players that aren't going to improve us. The hype on White & Lynch on this board when we traded for them was ridiculous.
Lynch was already finished & White has been average at best @ the swans for 7 years. Need I mention Armstrong & Russell? We got what we traded for. No more please.
 
Here is another thought. Perhaps if we are intending to trade, we could trade for someone who has already proven to be a good player?
We only trade for players that aren't going to improve us. The hype on White & Lynch on this board when we traded for them was ridiculous.
Lynch was already finished & White has been average at best @ the swans for 7 years. Need I mention Armstrong & Russell? We got what we traded for. No more please.

Well we have to give something good to get something good in Return.

I agree that we do trade in Other Club Rejects too often
 

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