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Developing Paddy

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As much as I would like Paddy to develop in the VFL, he's part of our Best 22 right now, so he has to play. Simply must, his role is very important for us structurally.
 
Should be given time to develop in the VFL. We should play Spencer or Lee first and see if they can play. No point having Paddy lose confidence when we have two partially developed guys who need to be looked at.
 

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Should not have subbed him off. It wasn't good for his development or for our forward line structure. If he got injured I take it back.


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He won't lose confidence if he keeps playing, he'll grow in confidence, this kid has a good head on his shoulders, gonna be a champ. With roo out, lee playing down back and spencer waiting to get traded at the end of the year and not doing much at sandy, paddy's the man, get behind him!
 
Leave him in the VFL... build confidence... another preseason and away he goes in 2016. If he can kick 40 next year then we are way ahead... without the $1m price tag.
 
BrianSpeaking said:
Small ground, poor delivery, not a surprise he struggled.
Anyone who would put Spencer in front of Paddy needs to slap themselves around for 20 minutes.
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Brian plz tell us your thoughts on spencer. Is he a dead horse and have we stopped flogging him?
 
Joffaboy said:
From what I saw on Saturday White has not improved at all. Even at the qtr breaks he didn't seem engaged when Searle was talking to the forwards but that may just be him. I watched him for a while and there was no real energy. A lot of walking about
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Either he's been approached by another club and told that he'll be picked up come what may, or he's doing a Paul Cahill, and has realised that he's just not cut out for AFL footy. If it's the latter, hey, no hard feelings - live and learn, son.

Mind you, our much-lauded recruiting team will then have a few things to explain, about why they took him, given their emphasis on "character" - surely, that doesn't just mean he keeps his room clean. Surely it includes having the mental toughness to actually make it beyond being talented.
 

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Smoke_Me_AKipper said:
....which is a primary reason why we can't compare the two kids over their first 3 years as they will have had different paths.
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Wasn't comparing them. But was suggesting I had a concern that we weren't taking it a bit more easy on him.
And at the same wondering how we went from Lee being the supposed CHF of the future, and White being the great white hope, to barely 4 months later and one of them is apparently on their last legs with a position change, and the other is dead weight.
I don't understand why we're trying Lee down back. We have Simpkin and Goddard as tall cover back there. Richo knew from end of last season he wanted Bruce to play forward, so if he felt that left us short at the back, its just as bloody well Goddard fell to us! But why take Payne then, why not a state league KPD?
And why take Lee and put him back there, when our list is paper-thin with tall forwards? Last year we had to play Simpkin forward for what, 5 games? Are we gonna put Gilbert up forward when he's back?

The problem is, it's too late to take a different path now, as it'll piss people off and look desperate at the same time. I don't feel we should have put Paddy in the position of being our sole KPF backup and therefore putting the weight of AFL game outcome onto his shoulders. We should have played Spencer or Lee or even Hickey. Even if Spencer doesn't deserve the shot, we need to see if he has anything worth keeping.

StFly said:
Dropping him for the sake of dropping him won't help either himself or the side.
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This is kind of my point. By picking him in the first place, we've made a rod for our own back. Now it'll be a bit of a big deal if we drop him before Roo is back. If it had been Hickey or Lee on the bench against the Pies, we'd maybe be talking about Paddy getting a run this week. Instead we're now facing up to the fact it's not ideal he's in there, but it would be worse to drop him.
 
ike2112 said:
Wasn't comparing them. But was suggesting I had a concern that we weren't taking it a bit more easy on him.
And at the same wondering how we went from Lee being the supposed CHF of the future, and White being the great white hope, to barely 4 months later and one of them is apparently on their last legs with a position change, and the other is dead weight.
I don't understand why we're trying Lee down back. We have Simpkin and Goddard as tall cover back there. Richo knew from end of last season he wanted Bruce to play forward, so if he felt that left us short at the back, its just as bloody well Goddard fell to us! But why take Payne then, why not a state league KPD?
And why take Lee and put him back there, when our list is paper-thin with tall forwards? Last year we had to play Simpkin forward for what, 5 games? Are we gonna put Gilbert up forward when he's back?

The problem is, it's too late to take a different path now, as it'll piss people off and look desperate at the same time. I don't feel we should have put Paddy in the position of being our sole KPF backup and therefore putting the weight of AFL game outcome onto his shoulders. We should have played Spencer or Lee or even Hickey. Even if Spencer doesn't deserve the shot, we need to see if he has anything worth keeping.



This is kind of my point. By picking him in the first place, we've made a rod for our own back. Now it'll be a bit of a big deal if we drop him before Roo is back. If it had been Hickey or Lee on the bench against the Pies, we'd maybe be talking about Paddy getting a run this week. Instead we're now facing up to the fact it's not ideal he's in there, but it would be worse to drop him.
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Um I didn't think you were comparing Paddy to Hogan though were you, (in your original post)?

Good questions re Lee and White. I certainly haven't given up on them and I would hope that the club hasn't. Maybe it is more like fans and posters? You do pose some good questions re list management. I don't have the answers though. Maybe they want to give Lee a go in defence (didn't he start out as a defender though) just to see how he goes. Simpkin to be fair is only a 3rd tall defender. Hugh Goddard whilst encouraging is still raw and they don't want to rush him. Gilbert either plays defence or on the wing - kind of like what Roberton is doing currently. We did recruit Membrey and McCartin with the former playing every game so far (and yes he is raw). The one I wonder about is White as he played a game or two last year and showed something as well as sjhowing what he needed to work on. He mustn't have got the message yet re what he needs to do??? Maybe the club is testing him? Seeing if he takes the bait? I don't know.

Yes I think they should give him a rest and try Spencer or Tommy Lee if Roo doesn't get up.

Hmmm I don't know about making a rod for our own back re dropping him. I see it as giving him a taste to show him what it is like, what is expected of him, and also what personal dev he needs to do over this season, (as well as future seasons I guess), but that is just me....
 
ike2112 said:
And why take Lee and put him back there, when our list is paper-thin with tall forwards? Last year we had to play Simpkin forward for what, 5 games? Are we gonna put Gilbert up forward when he's back?
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I can only really speak from experience of moving into the backline occasionally from forward pocket is that the workrate is a WHOLE different kind of game. Up forward you basically dictate the flow and your defender will generally react to that. If your work rate is poor you will get outcontested easily or your man will simply drop off you and impact the play (aka being DEMPSTERED).

I really think they are drilling that accountability into Lee and building the mental toughness in him. He didnt score multiple 3 goal games in 2013 due to luck, its because he had the confidence and work to back it up. 2014 basically smashed that due to his shoulders and he is stilll building it back up. Being complacent, especially defensively, comes far too easy.. but its a non option as a defender as you wont simply "not kick goals", you will instead spend your time watching your opponent kick them over your head.

I do believe that Lee will come back forward eventually and be better for it. We know he can kick goals, we just need him to get those marks first.
 
I do get the impression when I've seen Lee, and one of those was in the flesh at Sandy, that he looks a bit 'broken' mentally, as if he's accepting that he's borderline average instead of striving to be AFL level (even C-grade level would help us right now as we transition to the future).

Just think it's also poor timing; if he'd been doing this backline "homework" last year, he'd have been ready to cover for Roo, even at a much lower quality, and save us having to rely on Paddy.
 
ike2112 said:
I do get the impression when I've seen Lee, and one of those was in the flesh at Sandy, that he looks a bit 'broken' mentally, as if he's accepting that he's borderline average instead of striving to be AFL level (even C-grade level would help us right now as we transition to the future).

Just think it's also poor timing; if he'd been doing this backline "homework" last year, he'd have been ready to cover for Roo, even at a much lower quality, and save us having to rely on Paddy.
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He was still coming off his shoulder reconstructions last year. I dont know if contested marking/spoiling is really a good thing when still recovering from that. I do think the club didnt realize just how far getting his shoulders done would set him back in development. Hell, I doubt he did either.
 
Also noted Hickey has been played as a forward 2 weeks in a row at Sandy, and they've made a big point of mentioning it numerous times.
From about 2010 I always felt Kosi, after all his problems, looked like a ruckman playing forward and he was still alright. Hickey would be able to attempt that role - yeah he ain't too mobile, but as I say, neither was Kosi. I think we're going to see the club try Hickey and Longer in the same side, and quite soon.

Longer is playing well in bursts, but is tiring in games. Hickey just has to play the less-mobile goal-square role, let Bruce do the running that Roo normally covers (to a point, nobody can run That much) since long-term, Bruce will be the CHF doing that role.
 

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Lee has a long term contract - he's signed up until the end of 2016, so I think the club is committed to seeing him in the side, and this is part of this development. He clearly has talent as a leading/marking forward, whether that be as a key forward or a medium third forward. I think we'll see him during the year at some stage in the side playing forward, but at the moment, more than anything, Tim Membrey's work ethic is keeping him out.

I thought it was telling last year during the Future Fest, after kicking four goals from seven kicks in the senior team, that they gave Spencer White only one year. He was a top 25 pick, but 2012 is looking like a really shallow draft - not a lot taken after him (we took Wright, Saunders and Murdoch after that - two goers who lack skill and a bloke without a defined position) so it may have been the best we can do. Mark Fine suggested White came back to the club from off-season in unsatisfactory shape, but so did Longer, who them proceeded to work his backside off and is now getting the results.

Long term Bruce is going to be that swingman, but he keeps kicking multiple goals. I can see him going where he is needed at some stage.

So I don't think we're short of KPs at either end. We need to replace Fisher at some stage, but he plays KPD rather than floating now so that may be Bruce. Delaney would want to start performing better soon - we got him cheap for a reason. On the other hand he was fifth in the B&F last season, and Saintsblog had him third.

All this goes back to McCartin. We knew Riewoldt would be special from his 2nd game. McCartin will not get the opportunity to go to CHB and take pack marks unmolested like Riewoldt and Koschitzke did in their developments - the game has changed. Both Roo and Kosi won their Rising Star awards doing just that. It will be harder for McCartin, but he looks to be a very good field kick. He probably just needs to clunk a few. Unfortunately if he plays Sunday he'll probably get Dustin Fletcher - who will run off him at every opportunity, or if Fletcher doesn't play, the Papuan Prince.
 
Bruce has extremely good endurance, and I think that'll mean he'll become more and more the Roo-replacement (as much as anybody can replace him).
 
That's half the problem, isn't it? Trying to build a team in the same place where a hole will be, that was once filled by the greatest to ever pull on the jumper.

There will never be another Riewoldt, but the fact that in the last two weeks we've had a six goal quarter, two four goal quarters, and a player kick multiple goals in each is pleasing.
 
There was never going to be another lockett, banger, burke, loewe or maxy.

Than some kids came along by the names of hayes, roo, dal santo, Milne ect.

Now we start to see names like lonie, paddy, Dunstan, billings Sinclair ect.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, we just have to watch and wait for these new kids to make names for themselves.
 
The Punter said:
That's half the problem, isn't it? Trying to build a team in the same place where a hole will be, that was once filled by the greatest to ever pull on the jumper.

There will never be another Riewoldt, but the fact that in the last two weeks we've had a six goal quarter, two four goal quarters, and a player kick multiple goals in each is pleasing.
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Roo for as Great as he is, is both our biggest asset and detriment. Whilst Roo is there, the players will look to him to kick the goals, take the mark, be the bail out guy, be the game changer, with out Roo We are finally starting to see others stand up
 
Even if you disregard our previous Saints teams, its pretty standard to have 2 key forwards, one roaming type and one sit inside 50, crash packs type.

Bruce at this point actually looks like he projects to be capable of both, but I would say it would be a waste of his running ability and general attitude/effort to have him as anything other than the CHF roaming type. Conveniently Paddy seems more suited, based on career trajectory, to be the Jack Riewoldt type.
I don't have any issues with that at all in future; I think it will set us up well. Where I do have an issue is us effectively being shoe-horned into being in that situation right now, and then worse in the game last week playing with only 1 tall forward. Membrey isn't really a target inside 50, if the opposition are back they will swamp him for size.
 

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