Devil you know or the Devil you dont know?

[CoggaRules]

IMO, right about now we have come to a fork in the road when it comes to talking about the tigers and where they are heading.

There are numerous discussions going on debating where we are at with our grand plan and if we are at, where we were suppose to be.

From where i sit and from what i see, yes we have improved, its easy to improve when you start at 0, but i have grave reservations as to our future, when taking into account, the draft/trade stuff ups, and the one sided approach taken with the list building.

So the question is, do we forsake the long term rebuilding of the list, which IMO has now blown out by a decade, i.e. the devil you dont know, and add to the devil you know with players you know, in order to at least make the push for the big one, within the next 3 years, i.e. give it a shot with what we've got. Then when and if we make it, allbeit not as long term as we had wanted it to be at the beginning, but we can then return to the rebuild, with a better core group as a platform to build on, to which we can add more young talent, hand picked by anyone but GM, to attain the long term success that the tigers are after.

For the realists on this forum they might understand where i am coming from, when i say we are IMO, at least 5 + years away from resembling a tight, skilled, hard unit that can mix it with the big boys. And thats only if we snag a couple of good young guns in the upcoming drafts. Do we go for a few proven players up front, leaving the rebuild on the backburner, with low end draft picks?
We are fast closing in on the 30 year mark dudes.

 

[richoatthedisco]

I hear ya Cogs, and I've been thinking along similar lines. Fact is we're going to lose Richo, Simmo, Brown, Johnson & Bowden in the next few years. We might be able to cover the last three but no one will replace Richo and at the moment no one looks like taking over from Simmonds. 2011 our supposed window opens, right when these five retire. Then our senior players will be Newman, Cogs (big maybe), Tuck, McMahon and Polak (big maybe). From there we'll go backwards before we go forwards anyway.
Or, we can try to trade this year's pick 8 and Rance for Kerr (WC would take this I reckon) and get Cousins in the PSD. All of a sudden we have the best midfield in the league. Isn't everyone saying midfields win premierships? Cousins has at least 3 years left in him - very similar player to Crawford. And Kerr has at least 6. So we add two of the best half-dozen mids over the last 5 years to our own improving stocks, while we still have the best player in two decades to pull on the yellow and black playing well.
So much has been spoken in the wake of Hawthorn's victory about being ready when your chance comes, and that it could come earlier than any supposed timeline. Adding these two guns would put us right up there. It would be a smash-and-grab attempt but honestly, unless we unearth a couple of superstars in the next three years, it's the only way I see us winning a flag for many years yet.

 

[tugga]

In other words Cogga, are you saying do we continue to rebuild and be at the risk of being mid-table finishers for the forseeable future, or do we top-up a bit and at least plays finals for a few years in a row without ever contending for the premiership?

 

[_RT_]

FWIW Cogga, I reckon we hedge our bets a little. The Hawks seem to have done alright out of doing just that. Since Clarkson took over they kept their early picks in the draft and added a few of experienced heads with later picks or trades, see Dew 3rd round pick, Guerra PSD, Gilham trade IIRC.

I believe it is important that we keep adding youngsters with our first 2 rounds, that way we continue to build depth and as time goes by and these youngsters gain value we can then offer the odd player up for trade to gain a better pick in these first couple of rounds.

Hawthorn proved on Saturday that if everything falls into place you can win a premiership despite not having the best team. I read with interest that although they have now got that premiership they were after they are still a fair way off having the list that they want to have to achieve long term success.

This is why it is important that we don't panic now and think that we have to try and catch up to them ASAP. Keep building the list and add to it with experience if and when the opportunity arises and we'll be find. Chuck it all away and go for the quick fix, so to speak and we'll end up stuck in no mans land for a long time to come.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Add Kerr and Cuz and we are big contenders for the 2010 flag. Or would you prefer to see Collingwood or Carlton do it?

 

[Bazzar]

With Richo, Bowden, Johnson etc going in the next few years, Is it time we now trade for 2-3 quality 25 - 28 year olds to ensure we have that solid late 20`s age group that all great teams need when they do go

Its all well keeping on drafting the kids, but we appear to be well balanced with them now. Also what is the 2 time frames of the compromised drafts? Gold Coast is it one or two years? And we still aren’t sure if West Sydney will come into it are we. So do we take the punt and forego 2 years of high draft picks taking into account we have had remarkable luck with low picks and rookie elevations. I would like to think we do.

 

[CoggaRules]

In other words Cogga, are you saying do we continue to rebuild and be at the risk of being mid-table finishers for the forseeable future, or do we top-up a bit and at least plays finals for a few years in a row without ever contending for the premiership?

not really. What i am saying is, do we cop it on the chin, re. our last 4 years of drafting stuff ups, i.e. no ruckman, hope we have a FF, cant see a CHF anywhere, etc etc. Go for the jugular and recruit proven players for those spots, draft youngsters with low end draft picks, you never know what might come up, and at least give the big one a shot, with what we have got.
If we snag it we do, if we dont, then we regroup, dip into the draft hard with youngsters and add to our list, which will have the likes of Lids, Bling, Moore, Thursty etc as the senior group, rather than the laugh a minute clowns that we started this rebuild with.
In other words, the long term vision would be, try and take the big steps now, see what happens, then take the nessecary back steps, but launch the next assault from a higher platform than we did this one.

 

[tony_montana]

not really. What i am saying is, do we cop it on the chin, re. our last 4 years of drafting stuff ups, i.e. no ruckman, hope we have a FF, cant see a CHF anywhere, etc etc. Go for the jugular and recruit proven players for those spots, draft youngsters with low end draft picks, you never know what might come up, and at least give the big one a shot, with what we have got.
If we snag it we do, if we dont, then we regroup, dip into the draft hard with youngsters and add to our list, which will have the likes of Lids, Bling, Moore, Thursty etc as the senior group, rather than the laugh a minute clowns that we started this rebuild with.
In other words, the long term vision would be, try and take the big steps now, see what happens, then take the nessecary back steps, but launch the next assault from a higher platform than we did this one.

hit the nail on the head. One thing Ive noticed is that it takes dedication and the best part of a decade of consistant drafting with which to build a side capable of winning a flag. Hawthorn started this side back in 2001, reloaded in 2004 going backwards before unleashing the past 2 seasons, the cats started back in the late 1990's, brisbane's 3peat took the best part of 7-8 years to come to fruition, Port similarly in 04, sydney, the list goes on.

We truly started in 2004, still mind boggling at how many high draft picks we gave away over a consistemtl;y long time . We just have to keep plugging away, if we have another good injury run we will challenge strongly for the 8, we might see a drop off again once our older brigade go but like you said by that time our core base from which to build on will be the likes of Deledio, moore, foley, cotchin, thursfiled, reiwoldt, edwards, polo etc etc.

 

[tugga]

not really. What i am saying is, do we cop it on the chin, re. our last 4 years of drafting stuff ups, i.e. no ruckman, hope we have a FF, cant see a CHF anywhere, etc etc. Go for the jugular and recruit proven players for those spots, draft youngsters with low end draft picks, you never know what might come up, and at least give the big one a shot, with what we have got.
If we snag it we do, if we dont, then we regroup, dip into the draft hard with youngsters and add to our list, which will have the likes of Lids, Bling, Moore, Thursty etc as the senior group, rather than the laugh a minute clowns that we started this rebuild with.
In other words, the long term vision would be, try and take the big steps now, see what happens, then take the nessecary back steps, but launch the next assault from a higher platform than we did this one.

I'd be inclined to start what we've finished. This year is the last pure draft for a while. Use it I say.
I can't see us trading aggressively given what we have in the way of players and picks this year anyway.
I'd be happy if we sat on our hands during trade week for once. Draft four or five kids - two or three of them turn to be guns and we're away!

 

[True Thylacine]

Careful you blokes. Didnt a certain Terence the suntan suggest a few weeks back that we should now pursue some big names? Are you guys starting to agree with him ?

 

[richoatthedisco]

At the moment I'm just brainstorming. No ideas should be discounted without full consideration. We should seriously examine what it will take to get Kerr & Cuz and if it will make us a contender if we do. If it will, do it. If not, stick to the draft and just accept that it means five years more to wait.

 

[NQTIGER]

I hear ya Cogs, and I've been thinking along similar lines. Fact is we're going to lose Richo, Simmo, Brown, Johnson & Bowden in the next few years. We might be able to cover the last three but no one will replace Richo and at the moment no one looks like taking over from Simmonds. 2011 our supposed window opens, right when these five retire. Then our senior players will be Newman, Cogs (big maybe), Tuck, McMahon and Polak (big maybe). From there we'll go backwards before we go forwards anyway.
Or, we can try to trade this year's pick 8 and Rance for Kerr (WC would take this I reckon) and get Cousins in the PSD. All of a sudden we have the best midfield in the league. Isn't everyone saying midfields win premierships? Cousins has at least 3 years left in him - very similar player to Crawford. And Kerr has at least 6. So we add two of the best half-dozen mids over the last 5 years to our own improving stocks, while we still have the best player in two decades to pull on the yellow and black playing well.
So much has been spoken in the wake of Hawthorn's victory about being ready when your chance comes, and that it could come earlier than any supposed timeline. Adding these two guns would put us right up there. It would be a smash-and-grab attempt but honestly, unless we unearth a couple of superstars in the next three years, it's the only way I see us winning a flag for many years yet.

What they both said

 

[telsor]

I figure you draft to cover everything, and trade when drafting fails.

As things have gone, the KF's and Ruckmen we've taken just aren't measuring up, so if we want to trade for these spots, sure, but look at each deal on it's merits. ( eg, the price asked for Warnock is ridiculous...Quite apart from the draft picks, a 4 year deal for a guy who is still going on 'potential'??? ).

 

[Bojangles17]

IMO, right about now we have come to a fork in the road when it comes to talking about the tigers and where they are heading.

There are numerous discussions going on debating where we are at with our grand plan and if we are at, where we were suppose to be.

From where i sit and from what i see, yes we have improved, its easy to improve when you start at 0, but i have grave reservations as to our future, when taking into account, the draft/trade stuff ups, and the one sided approach taken with the list building.

I would have thought that our shortcomings in list building and recruiting since 2004 have been acknowledged and addressed with recent appointments in last 12-24 months meaning our approach to 2009 is not the same as it was leading into 2005 which turns your flimsy case on its ear. I tend to look forward forearmed with what we have at the ready.rather than how were equipped historically speaking....

 

[CoggaRules]

I would have thought that our shortcomings in list building and recruiting since 2004 have been acknowledged and addressed with recent appointments in last 12-24 months meaning our approach to 2009 is not the same as it was leading into 2005 which turns your flimsy case on its ear. I tend to look forward forearmed with what we have at the ready.rather than how were equipped historically speaking....

our shortcomings in list building and recruiting will only be addressed when those who you suggest have been appointed, produce what our shortcomings in list building and recruiting require.
Flimsy case? give me a break man.
When those who you suggest as the answer, show us that they are the answer, i.e. we dont have to talk about our shortcomings, then you might have a leg to stand on.

 

[CoggaRules]

Careful you blokes. Didnt a certain Terence the suntan suggest a few weeks back that we should now pursue some big names? Are you guys starting to agree with him ?

yeah TT, it kind of hits me each time i sit in the southern stand on the last saturday in september with this empty feeling. Especially this year with the shit coloured jumpers all over the place and them riding home on the back of the party of the third quarter. Thinking to myself, if it were the tigers, the roar would be heard on the moon. Lets get the job done, anyway we do it, i dont giv e a flying ****. If we are where we are and we can go the next step or steps, with an influx of 2 big fish, then i say do it. The one thing in our favour is that it aint Spud and we wont be getting hacks and duds.
See what happens and if it doesnt pay off, then we wont drop to far back off the pace, with the quality of the youngsters we have ATM, and we can go from there.

 

[emperor]

For the realists on this forum they might understand where i am coming from, when i say we are IMO, at least 5 + years away from resembling a tight, skilled, hard unit that can mix it with the big boys. And thats only if we snag a couple of good young guns in the upcoming drafts. Do we go for a few proven players up front, leaving the rebuild on the backburner, with low end draft picks?
We are fast closing in on the 30 year mark dudes.

i understand where you are coming from cogg, we haev a decent mix as it stands but not enough to match it with the big boys at the business end. Still a few years away, dunno about 5, but def a couple of years out from challenging in earnest at the very least.

I'd probably stick on the current path, would the cost be worth the benefit of trading for proven guns? Not sure that it would, it was ok for the dawks as they traded for the 'augmenting' type players who top off a good engine room, plus the three card monty they pulled on both the Dockers and Roos. No one will ever get that lucky again. I think we need more engine room and those type of players cost too much at the trade table.

Then again it all depends on who you can get, if we could get say a Boyle at a reasonable price then I would be all ears...and Cousins would be nice

 

[CoggaRules]

i understand where you are coming from cogg, we haev a decent mix as it stands but not enough to match it with the big boys at the business end. Still a few years away, dunno about 5, but def a couple of years out from challenging in earnest at the very least.

I'd probably stick on the current path, would the cost be worth the benefit of trading for proven guns? Not sure that it would, it was ok for the dawks as they traded for the 'augmenting' type players who top off a good engine room, plus the three card monty they pulled on both the Dockers and Roos. No one will ever get that lucky again. I think we need more engine room and those type of players cost too much at the trade table.

Then again it all depends on who you can get, if we could get say a Boyle at a reasonable price then I would be all ears...and Cousins would be nice

if we start trading proven guns then we can board up the place dude.
We can trade unproven guns and let the others find out if they are and if they are then good luck to them.
Surely the brains trust have a pretty good view on who is and who isnt gunna cut it as a gun, along with who is and who isnt going to break out and become a star?
As long as we get what we are after, without affecting our overall position re. proven guns, then get them. We need hard tough experienced bodies that actually have skill, to compliment the skill of our youngsters. Not what we have now.

 

[Bojangles17]

our shortcomings in list building and recruiting will only be addressed when those who you suggest have been appointed, produce what our shortcomings in list building and recruiting require.
Flimsy case? give me a break man.

give it up cogg, using your twisted perverse sense of logic and misplaced parallels those at hawthorn should be shitting brix right now as 5 years on from the last flag they hoisted high and mighty they were up for a merger....In 2004 we had Miller and Beck heading the recruiting table with Mark Brayshaw with his hands firmly on the wheel fast forward in 2008 ............I'll let you fill in the blanks einstein

 

[emperor]

if we start trading proven guns then we can board up the place dude.
We can trade unproven guns and let the others find out if they are and if they are then good luck to them.
Surely the brains trust have a pretty good view on who is and who isnt gunna cut it as a gun, along with who is and who isnt going to break out and become a star?
As long as we get what we are after, without affecting our overall position re. proven guns, then get them. We need hard tough experienced bodies that actually have skill, to compliment the skill of our youngsters. Not what we have now.

i think we have our wires crossed cogg, i'm not saying we trade our proven guns, but that trading for proven guns from other clubs will cost an arm and a leg ... and I don't think that's a good way to go

I agree we need more engine room grunt and skill but it wouldn't come cheap. A kerr would cost too much imo

 

[IDGAF]

Premierships are won by steadfastly sticking to a regimine of recruiting a solid core of youngsters and bringing them through the system together .

Say your arguement that we have blown a lot of our draft picks (jury still out on a lot of them but point is ... every club blows draft picks ...) ... is the correct one , then bite the bullett and ship them out and keep bringing new ones in ...

The one thing that has to be learned from the Hawthorn premiership was that was won on the back of self belief and "chemistry" ... team-mates working together with a never say die attitude and a willingness to do the hard yards for each other .... "A group of young kids ... as i said ... all drafted together during the same period , all knowing each other like the backs of thier hands playing for thier mates" ... thrown in with a good mix of experience

Just like Geelong the previous year ... and the great Brisbane side before that ... the Essendon model before that ... then back the great Nth side of the late 90`s . They all had that same thing in common .

Fremantle is the classic example of "cobbling gone wrong" ... St. Kilda to a certain extent but not as bad .

Stick to the youth policy and do not waver ... because once we waver then we have lost it and are simply resorting to our old mindset of short term fixes and band aid measures ... actually ...LMAO at us even debating this

 

[Tigertom]

How can we plan beyond 09 if our coach's contract only goes to 09?

You can't blame TW if he trades our early picks for a Kerr or similar to add that GRUNT that we clearly need to get results. If we don't make the finals then he knows he is gone.

I say we extend his contract now to atleast end of 2010 or cut him free tomorrow.

If we ride out the curent list and build with more youth then we probably won't see any great improvement in 09. We may even drop back a little when the sides that tanked this year actually try. The upside is continued improvement over the next couple of years 2010 & 2011. But TW won't see this will he?

Either way it's a win/win or lose/lose

Oh for a crystal ball

 

[emperor]

Premierships are won by steadfastly sticking to a regimine of recruiting a solid core of youngsters and bringing them through the system together .

Say your arguement that we have blown a lot of our draft picks (jury still out on a lot of them but point is ... every club blows draft picks ...) ... is the correct one , then bite the bullett and ship them out and keep bringing new ones in ...

The one thing that has to be learned from the Hawthorn premiership was that was won on the back of self belief and "chemistry" ... team-mates working together with a never say die attitude and a willingness to do the hard yards for each other .... "A group of young kids ... as i said ... all drafted together during the same period , all knowing each other like the backs of thier hands playing for thier mates" ... thrown in with a good mix of experience

Just like Geelong the previous year ... and the great Brisbane side before that ... the Essendon model before that ... then back the great Nth side of the late 90`s . They all had that same thing in common .

Fremantle is the classic example of "cobbling gone wrong" ... St. Kilda to a certain extent but not as bad .

Stick to the youth policy and do not waver ... because once we waver then we have lost it and are simply resorting to our old mindset of short term fixes and band aid measures ... actually ...LMAO at us even debating this

 

[True Thylacine]

The one thing that has to be learned from the Hawthorn premiership was that was won on the back of self belief and "chemistry" ... team-mates working together with a never say die attitude and a willingness to do the hard yards for each other .... "A group of young kids ... as i said ... all drafted together during the same period , all knowing each other like the backs of thier hands playing for thier mates" ... thrown in with a good mix of experience

Amen Brother Iddy amen. A champion team will always ...etc etc. And whats more they don't all have to be the best player in their position in the comp or even "elite" cough cough either....just wanna do it for their teammates and the jumper. You can see it developing in our side from blokes like JR and Matty White. They start it then it becomes infectious. Just look at how our backline has come on, classic example, no big names just a group of blokes committed to each other and the cause.

 

[bigstyletiger]

Champion team sounds good to me. I don't want to trade picks for blokes just wanting to get out of a place or earn some more dough. Especially when i think we are in a good position to consolidate over the next couple of years while the draft is being diluted. It's going to take a little longer for teams on the bottom or on their way down to rebuild if the Gold Coast and West Sydney coming in which leaves mid table risers like us in the box seat i think.

Much of our improvement will come from our players gaining experience and not from just getting guys in. With the first 25 picks being strong this year we can add another couple of quality youngsters and finish what we started. Sorry Bowden, Richo, Johnson, Brown, Simmonds but you're not our only hope of winning a flag. Simmonds will be the biggest loss from these guys and hopefully we take measures to cover him this year and not trade for a couple of mids.