Does Maric fit in team now?

[jenny61_99]

other coaches are also saying the rule won't last more than a season or two.

I guess we have to see how it goes, but on face value, I'm not lovin' it a whole lot.

 

[cmndstab]

Different game how?

Dean Cox, Ryder, Mitch Clarke etc etc. aren't fit to wipe Jim Stynes' behind.

that was 20+ years ago, and he was more of a midfielder than any of these blokes.

Jim Stynes is a bit of an unfair comparison One of the finest players to ever play the game, a Brownlow medallist. Of course he's going to come out smelling like roses in a comparison.


The point is, Jim Stynes was a rarity back then even more than he would be nowadays. As evidenced by the fact that he played 200-odd games in a row and was considered the best player in the land at one stage.

 

[cmndstab]

Consider this:
a defensive ruckman drops back into the hole at CHB to clog up space. what's more important now, than controlling space? ruck's used to clog space because there was more emphasis on 1 on 1 defending, and they couldn't do that. NOW what they can do has never been more suited.

Same up forward they clear space, and provide a target.

Perfect - I agree with you. And if the two ruckmen are capable of doing that, then there is room for them both in the starting 21.

 

[Crow-mo]

Jim Stynes is a bit of an unfair comparison One of the finest players to ever play the game, a Brownlow medallist. Of course he's going to come out smelling like roses in a comparison.


The point is, Jim Stynes was a rarity back then even more than he would be nowadays. As evidenced by the fact that he played 200-odd games in a row and was considered the best player in the land at one stage.

yeah, I see where you're coming from.

my point is that many people see these guys cox et al, as being a new affectation to the game, when stylistically they can't touch a guy who was doing in 25 years or so ago.

the game hasn't changed so much, when the new guys aren't as good as the old ones at doing that.

Rehn, Stynes, Everitt, Darcy amongst others - there is some mobility in there.

 

[cmndstab]

I don't think anyone is trying to claim that the upper standards of mobility/athleticism have shifted, but rather that the lower standards have. Yes, there were mobile rucks in the not-so-distant past, but there were also lumbering dinosaurs that got by just fine. Matthew Burton comes to mind. I'm sure there are a tonne more, but I wasn't really a strong footy supporter last decade so I'm not the one to suggest names. I'm sure you could, Crow-mo.

Nowadays, that sort of player would be much less likely to survive because the minimum required standards of mobility and athleticism have shifted. That's where the game has changed. In the past, you could get away with a much lower level of athleticism than you can today, if you were talented enough at playing football. Some players did have the athleticism, and if they had both, they were champions. Lots of players did not, however, and these are the players that are now excluded from playing AFL at the highest level, not the Stynes' and Darcy's of the past.

 

[WALL-e]

Different game how?

Dean Cox, Ryder, Mitch Clarke etc etc. aren't fit to wipe Jim Stynes' behind.

that was 20+ years ago, and he was more of a midfielder than any of these blokes.

Very hard to prove these sort of comparrisons, but you've pulled the Don Bradman or rucks. Guys like Stynes would be good in any era, just how they are.

But 10 years ago th ebest ruck was Jeff White, introduce the centre circle (along with an injury) and he's gone. Rucks like Alesio, Richardson, all the old 'big' rucks would struggle. Even a great ruck like the Monk would struggle, not offensively, but he'd be a liability.

I have no worry with your suggestions of how rucks are good to drop back and forward, that's quite true, D Jolly is one of the best I've seen get forward of the leather. Gardiner forged a career of power running out of stoppages. But if a ruck can't do this very well like these two they become liabilities.

Stopping opposition movement out of the forward line is now paramount in stopping the scoring flow. Defense isn't payed in the D50 alone anymore, it's the entire field. Tex copped it for his inability to corrall defenders deep in attack, how's big Ivy gonna go in that regard? If he gets good enough at pushing forward and damaging the opposition, or dropping into space in defense and stopping opposition thrusts, then you live with those other liabilities.

Jim Styles would be #1 for us, he'd also play 70% TOG. Would you bring in Ivan to play 30% TOG? Or would you rather one of those guys who aren't allowed to touch Jims hiney?

I still believe it's up in the air whther or not we play 2 full time rucks, but I believe both Jacobs and Maric have work to do to add string to the bow.

 

[adelaidecrows]

I beleive it will be tough for Maric to hold onto his spot. The crows will have sellar and moran looking at forcing their way into the side. Maric will have to work hard over summer to keep himself at the top of the pecking order by working on his around the ground work, he did extremly well dropping back into defence. To be honest I think he is going to struggle. He fights hard for the side and you can see the boys love him, but the game is evolving beyond him. He will not be the only ruckmen to feel the pinch around the competition next season.

Its a really tough call and I am certain Craig has already had meetings with him to try and keep his career alive under the new rules.

 

[Redline]

I agree with all of this, but again, you're asking for ruckmen to be able to do other things while they're not rucking. This requires them to be versatile. The only question then is, how good do they have to be at doing those other things? Or, more to the point, how poor, relative to other non-ruck options, do they have to be at doing those other things before using them part-time in that role is a greater detriment to the team than is the benefit gained from having a second ruck playing?


If Maric is used as a second ruck, but is worthless in defence, then we need to figure out whether we gain more from playing a decent defender than we lose by asking Jacobs to ruck the whole match. If Maric is good in defence (which I feel he is, in the role he played in 2010 at least), or any other position, then it's not really an issue. Then the same argument is then applied to Jacobs, or any of our other rucks.

This is the key point. It’s great to say what an advantage we will have by playing two genuine ruckman but we will just lose too much elsewhere around the ground.

There will be a lot of trial and error and may depend on who we are playing but I can’t see Maric and Jacobs being in the same team.

I’d expect we might go one of those two with Moran(if fit) or Sellar. I still don’t see why there is so much love for McKernan, I have watched him play a fair bit, he has shown nothing to suggest he is AFL standard. I really think if it wasn’t for the family name most people on here would be calling for him to be cut.

 

[cmndstab]

This is the key point. It’s great to say what an advantage we will have by playing two genuine ruckman but we will just lose too much elsewhere around the ground.

There will be a lot of trial and error and may depend on who we are playing but I can’t see Maric and Jacobs being in the same team.

I’d expect we might go one of those two with Moran(if fit) or Sellar. I still don’t see why there is so much love for McKernan, I have watched him play a fair bit, he has shown nothing to suggest he is AFL standard. I really think if it wasn’t for the family name most people on here would be calling for him to be cut.

I should point out that I believe that Maric has enough in his game now to be used as part of a two-ruckman combo. No reason why that other ruckman can't be Jacobs IF he has an extra dimension to his game as well.

For me, the question mark is on Jacobs. If he has the versatility to go somewhere else besides the bench when not rucking, then I fully expect both Maric and Jacobs to be in our starting 21 in 2010.

 

[Crow-mo]

some good and interesting debate here. I'd like to reply in greater detail when i get q chance but i'd make 2 brief observations:

1. Stynes is the gold standard of work around te ground, accumulating type midfield Ruckman, he wasn't exactly the greatest pure ruck. like all players of this type its about balance, lose a little here pick up something there.

2. big physical ruckman are as big a part of the game now, as ever. guys like hille hudson and sandilands. guys strong in the contest who can win clearances themselves and influence the stoppage through tap work.

mobile vs giant ruckman was a battle in 1987 and it still is in 2010. the only limitation for maric and jacobs is their own performance not their style imo.