Elijah Edwards - Progress ?

[blaze036]

Saying I'd take Edwards' pace of Mooney's pace is not a reflection of who is the better player but rather a suggestion that Edwards in game uses his pace better than Mooney does. Mooney is often hesitant to take guys on with ball in hand and doesn't yet back himself and his running game at this point in time. Edwards is fearless and just goes. He creates space with his agility in a similar way to Krakouer and then bursts away like few others. So as I mentioned in my previous post Edwards utilises his pace and agility better in games than Mooney.

Do either make the grade? Too early to say. Mooney was terrific in his debut season at VFL level with his tackling game impressive and marking ability solid up forward. With Edwards it's too far out to say and having not even played any TAC yet I'm not prepaired to say Edwards is a better player than Mooney or anyone else and until he proves it, in my mind he's not.

Probably because Mooney was playing in the AFL/VFL and edwards was playing in random school games/under 16 games.

A lot harder to take on great opponents.

 

[jabbers]

Probably because Mooney was playing in the AFL/VFL and edwards was playing in random school games/under 16 games.

A lot harder to take on great opponents.

Ditto!!

Those comparing kids games to the next best league are delusional. FFS Mooney has played one year and has already shown he can destroy opposition in the VFL. I would be pleasantly surprised if Edwards ever gets to that stage.

Mooney's game awareness and knowledge of when to use his speed should increase dramatically over time.

 

[Knightmare]

Probably because Mooney was playing in the AFL/VFL and edwards was playing in random school games/under 16 games.

A lot harder to take on great opponents.

The competition is different but it doesn't change a guys game. With Edwards he can run like that against any level of competition. Sure against higher level competition the pace of the game will be higher, bodies stronger around the contest and whatnot but suddenly playing in a high level competition doesn't suddenly make your strengths suddenly irrelevant. Edwards' pace, agility and quickness of mind is who he is along with his skills at ground level. I'd say with the upgrade of competition (say if he played a game of VFL or even NAB Cup) the more noticeable thing would be that his weaknesses would be more exposed and this instead would be the concern as opposed to his strengths not translating. But any lift of competition, it doesn't matter when talking what he does with ball in hand. The guy just goes. Nothing will stop him. It's what he does. It's how he plays and he'll continue to be encouraged against any competition to continue to play that way because he's how he influences contests and I'm sure he will.

 

[jabbers]

The competition is different but it doesn't change a guys game. With Edwards he can run like that against any level of competition. Sure against higher level competition the pace of the game will be higher, bodies stronger around the contest and whatnot but suddenly playing in a high level competition doesn't suddenly make your strengths suddenly irrelevant. Edwards' pace, agility and quickness of mind is who he is along with his skills at ground level. I'd say with the upgrade of competition (say if he played a game of VFL or even NAB Cup) the more noticeable thing would be that his weaknesses would be more exposed and this instead would be the concern as opposed to his strengths not translating. But any lift of competition, it doesn't matter when talking what he does with ball in hand. The guy just goes. Nothing will stop him. It's what he does. It's how he plays and he'll continue to be encouraged against any competition to continue to play that way because he's how he influences contests and I'm sure he will.

You don't think it is just possible that the under 15's could be a tad slower and that the other players not being elite may also be a tad slower therefore highlighting his pace a little more? Fact is Malthouse and other at Collingwood have said Mooney is the fastest player they have ever seen. You are building up Edwards to a ridiculous level because you want him to be good. Fact is, he's too small to make the grade. EOM

 

[DaVe86]

You may be right in the long run, but to say its a 'fact' is a gross overstatement. The club obviously sees something in him because they are putting a lot of resources into him at the moment. He's not even old enough to play AFL yet, so its impossible to say its a fact that he's too small to make the grade. We will only know if he gets an opportunity.

I have no problems with these experiments. The upside is huge. Someone like Rioli doesn't rely on height...i'd go as far as saying he'd be just as good if he was 5cm shorter.

Then you have guys like Garlett who are paper thin. It doesn't matter so much if you can't catch him.

I would say its better to be short but well built than tall and skinny. Players like Blair are short, but they have good centre of gravity. Therefore, it will be essential to get some beef onto his frame. But at his age, you don't want to do too much too soon.

I agree than in general players sub 170cm can't make it. Realistically it is pretty hard unless you are over 180cm these days.

But to be sub 170cm, you need to have something that makes up for it. That's probably what has cost guys like Fort Caruso a spot on a list. Although he is a gun, at his height he didn't excel in any one area.

Edwardes on the other hand does have something special. Lighting pace and X-Factor. I see no reason why he couldn't make it in the right team.

I say the right team because if you have a guy like Edwards, you couldn't have any other shortish players. You would need to structure your forward line to have marking targets or decent mid-sizers who can mark. He'd obviously offer no value in the air. Even short players like Leon Davis or Jarryd Blair can have impact in the air on the right opponent...Edwards would have absolutely none. So you couldn't carry another pure crumber.

I wish him all the best. He would be very exciting.

 

[TradeDraft]

You may be right in the long run, but to say its a 'fact' is a gross overstatement. The club obviously sees something in him because they are putting a lot of resources into him at the moment. He's not even old enough to play AFL yet, so its impossible to say its a fact that he's too small to make the grade. We will only know if he gets an opportunity.

I have no problems with these experiments. The upside is huge. Someone like Rioli doesn't rely on height...i'd go as far as saying he'd be just as good if he was 5cm shorter.

Then you have guys like Garlett who are paper thin. It doesn't matter so much if you can't catch him.

I would say its better to be short but well built than tall and skinny. Players like Blair are short, but they have good centre of gravity. Therefore, it will be essential to get some beef onto his frame. But at his age, you don't want to do too much too soon.

I agree than in general players sub 170cm can't make it. Realistically it is pretty hard unless you are over 180cm these days.

But to be sub 170cm, you need to have something that makes up for it. That's probably what has cost guys like Fort Caruso a spot on a list. Although he is a gun, at his height he didn't excel in any one area.

Edwardes on the other hand does have something special. Lighting pace and X-Factor. I see no reason why he couldn't make it in the right team.

I say the right team because if you have a guy like Edwards, you couldn't have any other shortish players. You would need to structure your forward line to have marking targets or decent mid-sizers who can mark. He'd obviously offer no value in the air. Even short players like Leon Davis or Jarryd Blair can have impact in the air on the right opponent...Edwards would have absolutely none. So you couldn't carry another pure crumber.

I wish him all the best. He would be very exciting.

Very Well Said Mate. It's not just Height that would Decide if you make it or not. Yes there hardly any 1-2 around that 170cm or Less but the Skill Set that Edwards Has is Exciting with his Incredible Pace and Above Average Skills. Also sound like he has Great Balance and Poise.

I am excited to see how he Develops and I reckon he be a Good Chance to play AFL

 

[jabbers]

A few points of interest. He is 160cm max! No one in the last 40 years has been so small and got a game. Tiny players like Callery were built like tanks but were taller than Edwards.

Collingwood committed to him as a 14 year old. Unfortunately he didn't grow. This is one of the few photos where he is photographed with other players. If you look at the others on the CFC websitehe seems to be by himself all the time. A conspiracy theorist might think they are trying to avoid the scrutiny about his size.

Remember if he makes it it will be a first. No one in the modern era has played that small!

 

[Knightmare]

You don't think it is just possible that the under 15's could be a tad slower and that the other players not being elite may also be a tad slower therefore highlighting his pace a little more? Fact is Malthouse and other at Collingwood have said Mooney is the fastest player they have ever seen. You are building up Edwards to a ridiculous level because you want him to be good. Fact is, he's too small to make the grade. EOM

My arguement is not that Edwards makes the grade or is a better player than Mooney. It's too early to suggest either.

But he uses his pace with ball in hand MUCH better than Mooney. There is just no comparison. Forget athletic testing. Straight line pace and leaping Mooney will win in testing. But in mind, with his agility Edwards is far, far superior in his movement that allows him to take on guys and then utilise his straight line speed. I don't see any sidestep or ability to create space on Mooney. Edwards has that. As said before Mooney with ball in hand is not comfortable taking the game on. Edwards is and in this aspect of his game is far superior.

My concern with Edwards is not how he will use his pace with ball in hand at AFL level. That aspect of his game will always be easy for him. He moves like a Rioli/Jetta/Yarran with ball in hand. Just forget trying to stop him. My concern instead with Edwards is that at his height he can be exposed in other ways. 1v1 contests at his height he'll have difficulty if isolated, particularly if his guy pushes forward providing a target. In the air he'll be outmarked more often than not. Then get pushed off the ball at stoppages.
His pace/agility/ground level work and tackling will never be questions. These are his strengths.

 

[jabbers]

My arguement is not that Edwards makes the grade or is a better player than Mooney. It's too early to suggest either.

But he uses his pace with ball in hand MUCH better than Mooney. There is just no comparison. Forget athletic testing. Straight line pace and leaping Mooney will win in testing. But in mind, with his agility Edwards is far, far superior in his movement that allows him to take on guys and then utilise his straight line speed. I don't see any sidestep or ability to create space on Mooney. Edwards has that. As said before Mooney with ball in hand is not comfortable taking the game on. Edwards is and in this aspect of his game is far superior.

My concern with Edwards is not how he will use his pace with ball in hand at AFL level. That aspect of his game will always be easy for him. He moves like a Rioli/Jetta/Yarran with ball in hand. Just forget trying to stop him. My concern instead with Edwards is that at his height he can be exposed in other ways. 1v1 contests at his height he'll have difficulty if isolated, particularly if his guy pushes forward providing a target. In the air he'll be outmarked more often than not. Then get pushed off the ball at stoppages.
His pace/agility/ground level work and tackling will never be questions. These are his strengths.

Watch some gaelic highlights of Mooney's lateral movement. AS he gains more experience with the game he will show it. Not a bad effort for someone to play at the highest level in their first year of football.

 

[blaze036]

My arguement is not that Edwards makes the grade or is a better player than Mooney. It's too early to suggest either.

But he uses his pace with ball in hand MUCH better than Mooney. There is just no comparison. Forget athletic testing. Straight line pace and leaping Mooney will win in testing. But in mind, with his agility Edwards is far, far superior in his movement that allows him to take on guys and then utilise his straight line speed. I don't see any sidestep or ability to create space on Mooney. Edwards has that. As said before Mooney with ball in hand is not comfortable taking the game on. Edwards is and in this aspect of his game is far superior.

My concern with Edwards is not how he will use his pace with ball in hand at AFL level. That aspect of his game will always be easy for him. He moves like a Rioli/Jetta/Yarran with ball in hand. Just forget trying to stop him. My concern instead with Edwards is that at his height he can be exposed in other ways. 1v1 contests at his height he'll have difficulty if isolated, particularly if his guy pushes forward providing a target. In the air he'll be outmarked more often than not. Then get pushed off the ball at stoppages.
His pace/agility/ground level work and tackling will never be questions. These are his strengths.

There is no comparison because Mooney is trying to take on elite adult athletes with immense AFL experience, whilst edwards has no pressure and can just walce around 16 year old randoms who may not even play football that seriously.

Lets see if Edwards can do what he does in the VFL before saying he does things better than mooney. I'd take mooney in a heartbeat, he will be a freak and i think edwards will need a big growth spurt to make it. If he ends up 166 cms and a paper thin build then he would seriously struggle against huge VFL bodies, any bump would be a major crunch to him.

 

[Knightmare]

The reason Mooney is more hesitant in AFL is because there is less time and space to dispose of the ball relative to what he is used to in Gaelic football. Those Irish converts typically and Mooney is no exception, but they are all typically not great in traffic really not enjoy congestion or any forms of pressure. Edwards is far superior in congestion, creating space then taking on the game. Mooney doesn't have this and likely never develops it with his speed being more without the ball as opposed to with it whereas Edwards has that rare speed and agility with it which is what seperates he from Mooney and everyone else who may test well but not be able to utilise that speed in game.

 

[loki04]

Watch some gaelic highlights of Mooney's lateral movement. AS he gains more experience with the game he will show it. Not a bad effort for someone to play at the highest level in their first year of football.

Yeah with Mooney it's not movement (pace or agility wise) it's awareness when he has the ball, once he gets better awareness he will be very good.

On Edwards someone on Nicks BB have posted his official height at 163cm and 65kg.

 

[Busse]

Using Richmond's height you can work out Edwards is about 160cm, maybe give a couple of cm's due to his leg being bent and being on the far side of Richmond.

 

[loki04]

Using Richmond's height you can work out Edwards is about 160cm, maybe give a couple of cm's due to his leg being bent and being on the far side of Richmond.

Apparently he is 163cm.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Liberatore is listed as 163 cm. Or maybe that has been mentioned in which case I'll go back to sleep.

 

[Busse]

Apparently he is 163cm.

yeah just saw that, but can't always believe what someone has said on Nicks

 

[carnthepies19]

Shortest ever (known anyway) player was Danny Craven in the 90's. he was 162cm.

 

[jabbers]

The reason Mooney is more hesitant in AFL is because there is less time and space to dispose of the ball relative to what he is used to in Gaelic football. Those Irish converts typically and Mooney is no exception, but they are all typically not great in traffic really not enjoy congestion or any forms of pressure. Edwards is far superior in congestion, creating space then taking on the game. Mooney doesn't have this and likely never develops it with his speed being more without the ball as opposed to with it whereas Edwards has that rare speed and agility with it which is what seperates he from Mooney and everyone else who may test well but not be able to utilise that speed in game.

FFS this is frustrating! how can you say Edwards is better in congestion? He has never played in a competition anywhere near as quick as the VFL where they close down space quickly, let alone the AFL. To make these claims based on some underage games is quite simply infantile. You are hyping up Edwards to a ridiculous level. Talk to any elite player and they will talk about how little time you have at the higher levels compared to juniors.

 

[Dundalis]

FFS this is frustrating! how can you say Edwards is better in congestion? He has never played in a competition anywhere near as quick as the VFL where they close down space quickly, let alone the AFL. To make these claims based on some underage games is quite simply infantile. You are hyping up Edwards to a ridiculous level. Talk to any elite player and they will talk about how little time you have at the higher levels compared to juniors.

Sorry mate, but Knightmare has way way more cred when it comes to this stuff than you do. You can make the call on a players skills translating simply via watching the transition of juniors to seniors over a number of years. Some skills simply translate. That's all there is to it. Elite speed and agility combined with awareness often will.

Having said that I will admit that picture of Edwards is highly concerning. I have no idea who the lads around him are (I assume new draftees), so I don't know what height they would be, but he looks ridiculously tiny. Looks like a child. They need to pump this kid full of HGH ASAP. If he has no more growth left in him, his elite athletic and skill traits may not be enough to offset the complete liability he would be in 1 on 1's, in the air and in the contest. He'd have to have an extremely strong core otherwise, and even then there's serious issues.

 

[Ed D]

We're talking about a kid who turned 17 a few months ago, and has showed some promise for a player that we can essentially pick up with our last draft pick/rookie pick. Why anyone is worried is beyond me. If he doesn't make it it's no loss for the club, but I back our recruiters and coaching staff that they know what they're doing and that he's training with the club shows he's around the mark.

 

[Knightmare]

FFS this is frustrating! how can you say Edwards is better in congestion? He has never played in a competition anywhere near as quick as the VFL where they close down space quickly, let alone the AFL. To make these claims based on some underage games is quite simply infantile. You are hyping up Edwards to a ridiculous level. Talk to any elite player and they will talk about how little time you have at the higher levels compared to juniors.

I recognise that this is not going to go anywhere and we'll have to agree to disagree as our values differ on this one somewhat so this will be my final post on this specific subject.

I agree with your comments that the pace at AFL and VFL level are far superior to any u18 competition. In watching all three each year I'm absolutely aware of this with each a clear step up from the last.

U18 competitions are very much clear ball movement focused with a focus on more open games which is very different so you are absolutely right in this sense but I don't believe any skill being executed against u18s can't be translated into senior AFL football. Strength most typically doesn't because you're coming up against men at the next level but everything else can if you are elite enough in specific aspects of the game.

It's a major misconception to think that specific skills can't be translated from one level of footy to the next. A popular example of this is Sam Mitchell who dominated at VFL level and a large portion of the recruiting community had their doubts as to whether his ball winning ability would hold up at the next level and expecting that he would be too slow but he sure proved the doubters wrong and he did so because he was elite in specific areas of his game that have clearly translated.

Speed and agility are aspects that absolutely translate. It might mean that he can't sprint back pocket to forward flank with ball in hand without someone so much as touching him at the next level, but it won't stop him from being incredibly difficult with ball in hand to stop because he has the elite attributes in those specific athletic categories I mentioned in my earlier posts.

Personally I don't feel I'm over-rating Edwards and while there are specific aspects of his game I as many rate highly I also recognise his deficiencies and feel I have at this point as solid a feel for his game as I can from the sample of Scotch College APS football games I saw last year. I consider him as a guy who is a chance, but no lock to join the club as a rookie. I've acknowledged his strengths and weaknesses and my specific concerns with his game and the limitions which suggest he likely does have difficulty making the transition to the next level.

On Mooney because the discussion is about him I consider him to be the better footballer at this point in time and I consider his chances of finding a regular role with Collingwood more likely than I do for Edwards because his limitations are somewhat easier to work with.

Mooney is far superior in the air with his strong marking game, I consider his pressure and tackling game and work without the ball defensively better with his tackler more likely to stick and at his size I don't think he'll be exposed whereas with Edwards with his limitations can be knocked off the ball and beaten in 1v1s among other factors. Athletically Mooney is a higher leaper and in a straight line may just have Edwards beat. But with ball in hand Edwards thinks quicker, moves more elusively generating space for himself easily with his sidestep, his agility is superior and his running with ball in hand is far more damaging with his willingness to take on the game which I believe will always be there. Ball use a touch better. Then his work at ground level being a shorter type is also far superior.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages as with any direct comparison between players.

The arguement could be made that I'm undervaluing what Mooney can do offensively with ball in hand and it seems a few differ in their views of what he can do in this capacity with some thinking he can develop this aspect of his game but for mine until a guy has developed an aspect of his game you can't assume that, that will suddenly change. Players are and more often than not stay much the same as they are. Gary Ablett and Dane Swan are two notable exception where they both changed their games drastically, but they are the exceptions rather than the rule and in the recruiting business you can never assume a guy will suddenly "get it" or "develop a specific aspect of their game". You evaluate what is there and what a guy is doing today.