End of Year Planning

[dg102]

I dont think everyone should bag NH. Whos to say what those type of changes would do for the club. Nobody knows. Maybe shes right. Maybe completely rebuilding with good young drafts would get us a super team in 2013.

I also want to add that I dont think stkilda should carry injury prone players again, players like x clarke and mcguire in my opinion should be traded or delisted. Injury costs premierships and these guys get injured every season.

 

[The Punter]

My main point is still ignored by NH. She seems to think this is like Footy Fanatic - you just collect talent. Imagine what would have happened if we had got rid of Robert Harvey after the 1999 season - when he turned 28.

Any mass exodus of players will have a longer term effect on the club. Even if we brought in an incredible amount of talent, the soul of the place would be empty and it would take longer than five years to get back.

Footy clubs are built on comraderie, teamwork and attitude. Dismissing players such as Lenny Hayes, who would be captain of a lot of clubs and displays all the attributes one wants in a clubman as well as a footballer would be incredibly short-sighted.

NH, I don't think you're a troll. I just think your plan would be the worst case scenario.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

My main point is still ignored by NH. She seems to think this is like Footy Fanatic - you just collect talent. Imagine what would have happened if we had got rid of Robert Harvey after the 1999 season - when he turned 28.

Any mass exodus of players will have a longer term effect on the club. Even if we brought in an incredible amount of talent, the soul of the place would be empty and it would take longer than five years to get back.

Footy clubs are built on comraderie, teamwork and attitude. Dismissing players such as Lenny Hayes, who would be captain of a lot of clubs and displays all the attributes one wants in a clubman as well as a footballer would be incredibly short-sighted.

NH, I don't think you're a troll. I just think your plan would be the worst case scenario.

I agree , Sam Fisher recently discussed ( in an interview) how much he had learnt from Max Hudgeton. I don't think that the elder statemen of HN's team ( Fiora? , R Clarke? ) would impart the same wisdom.
I also don't think our list is too bad at the moment, they need to play together better. The word is "TEAM".
There are also enough passengers on the list without pushing our best 22 out the door. Assuming that HN's trades were made they would make their own room on the list. Otherwise we have others who will not make the grade that can be delisted. If Harvey and Hudgeton choose to retire than so be it, but we dont need them to make space so why push them out?

 

[just a line monkey]

Player
D.O.B.
Action
Steve Baker
22/05/1980
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Jason Blake
15/03/1981
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Raphael Clarke
24/09/1985
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Xavier Clarke
28/09/1983
Trade for any pick under 25, if no takers, keep.
Aaron Fiora
19/04/1981
Trade for any pick under 45, if no takers, de-list.
Michael Gardiner
05/07/1979
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.
Fraser Gehrig
03/03/1976
Retire.
Robert Harvey
21/08/1971
Retire.
Lenny Hayes
14/01/1980
Trade for any pick under 20, if no takers, keep.
Max Hughton
02/09/1976
Retire.
Steven King
22/11/1978
Retire.
Stephen Milne
08/03/1980
Trade for any pick under 30, if no takers, keep.
Michael Rix
01/08/1981
Trade for any pick, if no takers, de-list.

May as well throw away any centre clearances for the next couple of seasons

 

[ChrisFooty]

You're an idiot. Did you read the whole post? Did you read the highlighted parts? It says if we don't get what we want half the palyers mentioned we keep and the other half are either de-listed or retired. Of course I assumed you could read. Obviously not. Below is the end result if everything worked out.

Losses & picks gained in brackets

Steve Baker (25)
Jason Blake (30)
Raphael Clarke (29)
Xavier Clarke (24)
Aaron Fiora (40)
Michael Gardiner (45)
Lenny Hyes (19)
Stephen Milne (28)
Robert Harvey
Fraser Gehrig
Max Hughton
Stephen Kimg

Picks in the upcoming 2008 National Draft....
Assuming we finish 10th this year we also get pick 7,22,37,52. We would go into the Draft with 7,19,22,24,25,28,29,30,37,40,45,52. That's a proper re-build which will see us bottom out over the next 3 years and get some more high draft picks. But by 2012 we will be back and ready to challenge for the flag again.

It's laughable. No club is going to give up a top 30 pick for Raph Clarke or Jason Blake. Pick 40 for Fiora? Top 25 pick for Baker? Suggesting to trade Lenny Hayes?

Sorry to break the news but clubs are not going to offer top 30 picks for ordinary players or good players well past their prime and physical peak. (they will not want injury prone players)

 

[dg102]

It's laughable. No club is going to give up a top 30 pick for Raph Clarke or Jason Blake. Pick 40 for Fiora? Top 25 pick for Baker? Suggesting to trade Lenny Hayes?

Sorry to break the news but clubs are not going to offer top 30 picks for ordinary players or good players well past their prime and physical peak. (they will not want injury prone players)

What did we give up last year for Shnider and Dempster? You talk in certanties but you dont know shit

 

[NeXus_Helen]

Attention ChrisFooty

Which of the below trades is laughable, (as you put it)?

Lenny Hayes, for National Draft Pick 19
Xavier Clarke, for National Draft Pick 24
Steve Baker, for National Draft Pick 25
Stephen Milne, for National Draft Pick 28
Raphael Clarke, for National Draft Pick 29
Jason Blake, for National Draft Pick 30
Aaron Fiora, for National Draft Pick 40
Michael Gardiner, for National Draft Pick 45

Assuming we finish 10th this year we also get pick 7,22,37,52. We would go into the 2008 National Draft with picks 7,19,22,24,25,28,29,30,37,40,45,52. Let us analyse what we would have lost. Lenny...champion player but will be 29 next year. Xavier.....always injured. Baker...starting to get injured and tribunal problems and will be 29 next year. Milny....inconsistent goal sneak and will be 29 next year. Blake....puts in 100% but is a terrible kick for goal, not in our best 22 and will be 28 next year. Fiora....too soft, not in our best 22 and will be 28 next year. M. Gardiner....injury prone, past his best and turned 29 a couple of days ago.

Final analysis....

If we can trade 8 players who are either turning 29 next year or are injury prone, and in return we got National Draft Picks 19,24,25,28,29,30,40 and 45, I would say that would be a huge win for the Saints. Whether the above players are worth those draft picks is up for debate though. I thnk they are.

Please discuss, analyse and criticise but above all, provide your reasons. Don't just dismiss as laughable, not mentioning any names.

 

[goodie23]

Overlooking that you've just listed reasons why teams would not make those trades, do you understand the draft system?

Pick 19: Unless 3 teams earn priority picks this year, a highly unlikely event, this'll belong to one of the bottom teams. Do you see them trading it for a 29 year old midfielder? Or the premier? On top of that Lenny is our vice captain, and a long term servant of the club. His service and his form deserve far better than for him to be booted out on his arse because he's above a certain age.

Pick 24: 2nd round pick to a mid-table team, who is unlikely to want an injury prone player with potential. Carlton might possibly nibble, but is unlikely.

Pick 25: Again, mid-table team. Baker was the best, but suspension and injury are likely to frighten off suitors. And players his age don't get traded for early picks any more (Ben Hudson was traded for less last season, despite ruckmen being at a premium).

Pick 28: Probably a team in the mid-to-lower half of the 8. Milne is erratic and unpopular. Sydney are probably the only ones who would consider, and their sights are set on Fevola and getting their house in order.

Pick 29: For Raph? You think we'd get a latish second round pick for Raph? No chance of getting that, no shot, no way, no how. Even Fremantle wouldn't do that deal.

Pick 30: Probably a top 4 team. Blake isn't really regarded outside of our club. Great motor, but ordinary skills and is best used in specific jobs. There's too much competition on top 4 lists for them to spend a second round pick on Blake.

Pick 40: 3rd rounder, bottom team. Teams down there are thinking longer term than a late 20's midfielder with no heart, and are trying to weed out chaff rather than add to it.

Pick 45: Mid-table team. This is the most likely trade to pull off, but why would we? We went to the trouble of acquiring decent ruckmen in King and Gardiner, why on earth would we piss that away? I don't know about anyone else, but I liked seeing our midfield getting some decent service for the first time in years. Not to mention the mentor value to McEvoy, Haretaku, McGrath, etc.


And that's just a straight analysis, overlooking the emotional aspect of ripping the heart and soul out of the football club because of an arbitrary age line. Accomplishing all of the above would not be a win, but a disaster.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

What did we give up last year for Shnider and Dempster? You talk in certanties but you dont know shit

It was draft pick 26 for both of them , what is your point?
Schneider was considered a good player on his own, and both are relatively young.

 

[The Punter]

OK, but I am still here waiting for NH to address my concerns. NH is still arguing like this is a computer game, and you can just trade anyone for anything and not have a non-talent related effect on a footy club.

Lenny Hayes for pick 19 would be terrible for St Kilda because the player who we pick with pick 19 would not be able to replace Lenny's leadership and presence at the club immediately. Same for almost all the others.

 

[Squizz]

It was draft pick 26 for both of them , what is your point?
Schneider was considered a good player on his own, and both are relatively young.

I think that's his point - you don't know what clubs will trade if they are under cap pressure. Both were young premiership players who we got for a mid 20s pick. Prior to draft time, I would never have expected to get another (well performed) premiership player in Steven King for pick 90.

Some good discussions in the thread though. The hijacker has provoked an actual debate for a change - wonders never cease.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I think that's his point - you don't know what clubs will trade if they are under cap pressure. Both were young premiership players who we got for a mid 20s pick. Prior to draft time, I would never have expected to get another (well performed) premiership player in Steven King for pick 90.

Some good discussions in the thread though. The hijacker has provoked an actual debate for a change - wonders never cease.

But thats my point, if the current market is such that you can get Steven King and C Gardner for pick 90 why would you trade any pick for R Clarke or A Fiora. If we started trading multiple players for draft picks we would empty our list ( you can only pick up so many during the draft ).
And what is the point of retaining McQualter , Ferguson, Howard, Gwilt who at best will only go on to become average players?

When you see discussions about Carlton and Chris Judd, they don't talk so much about how well Judd plays, as much as his leadership, and the example he sets.

My other gripe is that RL was not contracted to rebuild the team, and I would consider it an extremely low act to come into a competative team, make them uncompetative, then announce that you were ripping the team apart to rebuild. If such a rebuild is necessary than I consider that RL should be the first one out.

 

[Squizz]

Yeah, I agree with you and Goodie.

But funnier things have happened.

And agree on the RL issue. Our recruiting last year :

• Gehrig
• Schneider
• Gardiner C
• Dempster
• King
• along with signing Fiora for 2 years

was all about topping up for a tilt at it, so a major clean out would be an admission that things have been cocked up.

 

[Persevering Saint]

We have to remember that any draft pick ( or any job interview for that matter ) is a hit and miss process. The Saints are not public service and the flow of players does not have to be in at the bottom ( draft/rookies) and out the top ( retirement ). I think we have been guilty of persisting with poor picks when we should have said goodbye. I think it is vitally important to get a full compliment of rookies, ( look at the potential we have in Miles and Geary ) and at least three in the draft.
PS please dont feed the NH.

I didn't feed anybody, did I? (I know, I know... just couldn't resist the joke...)

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The other thing is that if we traded out all of our good players in such a blatent fashion, it would be evident that we were tanking at an unprecedented level.
That would raise a bit of an outcry, and possibly result in the AFL changing the drafting rules to make it backfire on us while we are at rock bottom.

 

[dg102]

It was draft pick 26 for both of them , what is your point?
Schneider was considered a good player on his own, and both are relatively young.

IM SAYING. We gave up pick 26 NOT 30+ for Shnider at age 23 and Dempster at age 24. For example Raph is 23 and L Fish is 24. Now Im not saying that they are gonna be traded and they might not be as good as Shnider but. Sydney got rid of em. Meaning they wernt required players and we picked em up for pick 26. SO DONT SAY THAT THOSE TYPE OF TRADES CANT HAPPEN YOUR WRONG. THEY DO HAPPEN. and they probably will happen at the end of the year.

 

[NeXus_Helen]

IMHO, if we don't trade away certain players for draft picks then we awill be stuffed for the next 6 years. By this I mean, we will hang around 8th - 12th for a while and then crash to the bottom. If that does take 6 years to occur, (which I think it will), then all our current stars who are now mostly in their mid 20's will be on their last legs as well.

This big clean out is so we can challenge again before Rooey, Kosi, Fisher, Gramy, Goddard, Montagna, Bally can have another shot at a flag. If St kilda keep going down RL's path, by the time we are challenging again all of the above players that I have mentioned will have retired.

 

[The Punter]

IMHO, if we don't trade away certain players for draft picks then we awill be stuffed for the next 6 years. By this I mean, we will hang around 8th - 12th for a while and then crash to the bottom. If that does take 6 years to occur, (which I think it will), then all our current stars who are now mostly in their mid 20's will be on their last legs as well.

This big clean out is so we can challenge again before Rooey, Kosi, Fisher, Gramy, Goddard, Montagna, Bally can have another shot at a flag.

... who won't feel secure in their positions at the club as anyone could go at any time. They'll also find the club a soulless place with no regard for those who have put their bodies on the line for the jumper.

Still waiting...

 

[SaintsSeptember]

IM SAYING. We gave up pick 26 NOT 30+ for Shnider at age 23 and Dempster at age 24. For example Raph is 23 and L Fish is 24. Now Im not saying that they are gonna be traded and they might not be as good as Shnider but. Sydney got rid of em. Meaning they wernt required players and we picked em up for pick 26. SO DONT SAY THAT THOSE TYPE OF TRADES CANT HAPPEN YOUR WRONG. THEY DO HAPPEN. and they probably will happen at the end of the year.

The only players traded for first round picks last year were pretty good players. The Lenny Hayes trade is feasible. I dont think you would get a 2nd round pick for Fish ( although the way he is playing this year a third round trade might be good). I dont think you would get anything for R Clarke.

The trouble with the HN idea, is that she seems to assume that all or neally all of the trades she suggested would happen. There would have to be a much bigger trade week than we have ever seen before. In reality we would expect that our better players would be snapped up leaving us with the average ones.

 

[Squizz]

seems to assume that all or neally all of the trades she suggested would happen. There would have to be a much bigger trade week than we have ever seen before.

In a year where teams would be expected to go for youth pending GC concessions.

 

[NeXus_Helen]

The only players traded for first round picks last year were pretty good players. The Lenny Hayes trade is feasible. I dont think you would get a 2nd round pick for Fish ( although the way he is playing this year a third round trade might be good). I dont think you would get anything for R Clarke.

The trouble with the HN idea, is that she seems to assume that all or neally all of the trades she suggested would happen. There would have to be a much bigger trade week than we have ever seen before. In reality we would expect that our better players would be snapped up leaving us with the average ones.

All of the trades would not happen...I am aware of that. But if they did happen the way I have suggested the Saints would be able to re-build properly, not stuff around like RL is doing.

 

[dg102]

Ok enough squabling. Hayes, Baker and the likes are required players and will definately not be traded at years end. end of story. IMO if i had control of the list these are the players I would try and trade (due to underperfomance or injuries) Ive said it before I dont like injury prone players i think they cost a footy club dearly. And before you go off I know the likes of Gehrig and most of these wont be tradeable. But then I would definatley delist them. But some clubs might be interested in some of these younger guys and I would take highest drafts possible for them.

Birss, Blake, R Clarke, X Clarke, M Fergson, a Fiora, l Fisher, M Gardiner, C Gardiner, F Gehrig, J Gwilt, J Kosi, M Maguire, A Mqualter, M Rix.

Then with all the above players out and myabe + 4-5 top 30 drafts. Plus the young talent we already have (Armo, Allen, Eddy, Mc Evoy) We will easily replace thos above gone and have a real solid mix of youth coming through.

 

[NeXus_Helen]

Ok enough squabling. Hayes, Baker and the likes are required players and will definately not be traded at years end. end of story. IMO if i had control of the list these are the players I would try and trade (due to underperfomance or injuries) Ive said it before I dont like injury prone players i think they cost a footy club dearly. And before you go off I know the likes of Gehrig and most of these wont be tradeable. But then I would definatley delist them. But some clubs might be interested in some of these younger guys and I would take highest drafts possible for them.

Birss, Blake, R Clarke, X Clarke, M Fergson, a Fiora, l Fisher, M Gardiner, C Gardiner, F Gehrig, J Gwilt, J Kosi, M Maguire, A Mqualter, M Rix.

Then with all the above players out and myabe + 4-5 top 30 drafts. Plus the young talent we already have (Armo, Allen, Eddy, Mc Evoy) We will easily replace thos above gone and have a real solid mix of youth coming through.

Not a bad idea but you are not going to get high picks for that lot.

 

[Joffa 5]

Everyone seems to be assuming the players we pick with these early draft picks will blossom into superstars... Our club hasn't always used their draft picks wisely.

 

[TassieSaint]

If we retire King and trade Michael Gardiner, who do you suggest should ruck? You can't expect a second year ruckman in McEvoy to be first ruck he would get smashed every week and it would ruin his confidence and development. Kosi's tapwork is disgraceful and should never be first ruck and is better used elsewhere, same goes for Blake. LVR is a rookie who will be coming off a broken foot and Haretuku can't get a game in the VFL seniors. Same goes for Goose and KP back.

Assuming we finish 8th, my trades would be something along the lines of:
X. Clarke and R. Clarke -> Pick 30 odd to a West/South Australian club (closer to their family in the top end). Won't get much better than that for them I don't reckon, not even from Freo.
L. Fisher/Ferguson/Dempster/Gwilt/McQualter + pick 41 -> Pick 30-40. Essentially any combination of non-essential players and our 3rd round pick for a higher 3rd round pick.

This would leave us with:
9, 25, 30, 35, 57 as usable picks, which is plenty enough to build upon. Add Silvagni as a 5th round/PSD/rookie pick and we have a fairly good group of talented youngsters without trading away core players.