Toast Esava

[you pick one]

Rhetoric like this is so bizarre to me. How do you know it's CS that has him in the team each week? Equally, how do you know the other coaches aren't fans of Sav?

Hasn't everybody of influence been turned over in the last 3 years?

 

[D BRIDGE]

Rhetoric like this is so bizarre to me. How do you know it's CS that has him in the team each week? Equally, how do you know the other coaches aren't fans of Sav?

Because in a number of interviews in the past Scott has in some ways suggested that match commitee has differing views... I can't recall the exact wording from the past, but when listened to it's has been very obvious that Scott was pro and others may not be very pro having Sav in the side.

CS loves Sav, it's glaringly obvious.

+ Scott is the head coach, so I hold him responsable over anyone else over team selection.

 

[Partridge]

The thought of it makes me want to crawl into the foetal position. He has no game sense or footy iq. A smart forward would destroy him. He wouldn’t know what to do. He’d have bags kicked on him every week.

That's because he's not a natural footballer. He's an athlete. And the odd spectacular leap and mark every few weeks (or months) makes everything think he'll become one soon. But I'm starting to seriously doubt it.

Simply doesn't do enough.

 

[Partridge]

Hawkins did look absolutely lost up until 3/4s of the way through 2011, people forget that easily. But he never struggled as badly as Ratugolea does now.

I'll just say this again (not directed at you either)...........

Hawkins was a far better footballer and showed much much more from the very start. In case anyone has forgotten, here are Hawkins' goal tallies from his first 19 senior games (first two years):

2007: 3, 4, 0, 0, 4, 0, 1, 0, 0
2008: 1, 0, 5, 3, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0

So even after 13 senior games, Hawkins had kicked 5 once, 4 twice, and 3 twice.

Whereas after 56 games for Ratugolea, he has kicked 4 once, and 3 once. That's it. It's no comparison at all.

I don't think Hawkins ever looked lost, he just lacked self-belief. He played plenty of good footy before the finals in 2011, it was just inconsistent. But again, he showed tons more than Ratugolea ever has.

 

[Partridge]

Below is Hawkins' first nine games of 2011. It was only him and Pods up forward, Esava has to compete with Hawk and JC.

View attachment 1350386

People might want to examine Hawkins' form in late 2011 prior to the finals to get a very different picture.

 

[Cattery]

That's because he's not a natural footballer. He's an athlete. And the odd spectacular leap and mark every few weeks (or months) makes everything think he'll become one soon. But I'm starting to seriously doubt it.

Simply doesn't do enough.

What took you so long?
I realise he hasn't played a heck of a lot, but after fifty six games stats of 2.60 Marks, 8.42 disposals and 5.44 hitouts are pretty damning, needs to show "significant" improvement this year or he's fast becoming a lost cause.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

People might want to examine Hawkins' form in late 2011 prior to the finals to get a very different picture.

Once he was no longer the second ruck starting in round 17 he kicked 22 goals, averaged 14 touches and 6 marks from 9 games. He turned it around before Finals started, he just had a shocker against Sydney in that run which stuck with people and lessened the collective confidence in him.

 

[Partridge]

What took you so long?
I realise he hasn't played a heck of a lot, but after fifty six games stats of 2.60 Marks, 8.42 disposals and 5.44 hitouts are pretty damning, needs to show "significant" improvement this year or he's fast becoming a lost cause.

I try to remember that a lot of very good players take a while to 'click'. And anywhere from 30 to 40 to 50 games is needed, sometimes more.

But you also need innate football nous. And I don't think he has it.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

On Esava, A Hawkins like player has never been in the realms of possibility for him.

Think of a [PLAYERCARD]Levi Casboult[/PLAYERCARD] type (flawed but useful) second tall forward pinch hit ruck. His athleticism, size and competitiveness suggest he could be an AFL player, but he just hasn't developed at all. Same player he was 4 years ago.

 

[My Tilly]

Put him in the backline and let him get some of the footy. De Koning to the forward line if Cameron does sit this one out.

 

[catempire]

The signs are worrying.

It starts with being a natural athlete rather than footballer. He doesn’t do enough of the basics well, let alone anything that is clever by football standards. His impact relies on his superior athleticism and that’s not enough most of the time.

I don’t think he is helped by never having had a clear run at playing one role for a sustained period of time. Let’s face it, ruck-forward is about the toughest gig there is.

In the senior side he is always trying to have an impact in the ruck, often as Plan B when things go badly for Stanley, or up forward when he’s never going to get enough attention behind Hawkins and Cameron.

I don’t know the solution. For now we need him structurally. But I’m running out of patience and other options are on the horizon.

 

[cats_09]

On Esava, A Hawkins like player has never been in the realms of possibility for him.

Think of a Levi Casboult type (flawed but useful) second tall forward pinch hit ruck. His athleticism, size and competitiveness suggest he could be an AFL player, but he just hasn't developed at all. Same player he was 4 years ago.

As flawed as Casboult may be, he's still a few rungs above Ratugolea. While Casboult has his frustrations, the one area you could rarely fault in his game is his marking ability - across his career he has ave 5 marks per game & 2 contested marks per game, with career highs of 5.7 marks per game & 2.4 contested marks. If he could have kicked straighter he would have been an ideal second forward, but he was a reliable target in the air

Compare that with Ratugolea who has career averages of 2.6 marks & 1.5 contested marks per game, with career highs of 3.2 marks in 2018, and 1.7 contested marks in 2019 & down every year since. The reality is that Ratugolea has stagnated since his debut season, and in some key areas his game averages are actually lower than his debut season

 

[cats_09]

Put him in the backline and let him get some of the footy. De Koning to the forward line if Cameron does sit this one out.

SDK is out of this match - concussion protocols mean he will be out of action for 12 days following Saturdays match

 

[cats_09]

The signs are worrying.

It starts with being a natural athlete rather than footballer. He doesn’t do enough of the basics well, let alone anything that is clever by football standards. His impact relies on his superior athleticism and that’s not enough most of the time.

I don’t think he is helped by never having had a clear run at playing one role for a sustained period of time. Let’s face it, ruck-forward is about the toughest gig there is.

In the senior side he is always trying to have an impact in the ruck, often as Plan B when things go badly for Stanley, or up forward when he’s never going to get enough attention behind Hawkins and Cameron.

I don’t know the solution. For now we need him structurally. But I’m running out of patience and other options are on the horizon.

IF we can get a clean run with all of Cameron, Stanley & Ceglar available for senior selection, Ratugolea really needs a solid run in the VFL and in a set role - if he's seen as a long term forward option then have him as our #1 forward in the VFL and forgot about the idea of using him in the ruck

Let him focus on a specific role & let him develop in that role - we/coaches really haven't helped his development by not letting him focus his development on a single, specific role, and while it may be hard 6 seasons into his career, surely we should at least try

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

As flawed as Casboult may be, he's still a few rungs above Ratugolea. While Casboult has his frustrations, the one area you could rarely fault in his game is his marking ability - across his career he has ave 5 marks per game & 2 contested marks per game, with career highs of 5.7 marks per game & 2.4 contested marks. If he could have kicked straighter he would have been an ideal second forward, but he was a reliable target in the air

Compare that with Ratugolea who has career averages of 2.6 marks & 1.5 contested marks per game, with career highs of 3.2 marks in 2018, and 1.7 contested marks in 2019 & down every year since. The reality is that Ratugolea has stagnated since his debut season, and in some key areas his game averages are actually lower than his debut season

When I looked at Esava's career I saw more Levi Casboult potential (which isn't a criticism) as opposed to Tom Hawkins potential. On output, he's not even near Levi.

 

[#cats2021]

The signs are worrying.

It starts with being a natural athlete rather than footballer. He doesn’t do enough of the basics well, let alone anything that is clever by football standards. His impact relies on his superior athleticism and that’s not enough most of the time.

I don’t think he is helped by never having had a clear run at playing one role for a sustained period of time. Let’s face it, ruck-forward is about the toughest gig there is.

In the senior side he is always trying to have an impact in the ruck, often as Plan B when things go badly for Stanley, or up forward when he’s never going to get enough attention behind Hawkins and Cameron.

I don’t know the solution. For now we need him structurally. But I’m running out of patience and other options are on the horizon.

Not saying I disagree - but is that true?

He has the luxury of being the third option to Hawkins and Cameron... it shouldn't get much easier than that. He is pinch hitting occasionally around the ground in the ruck but my gut tells me over the course of his career he has been predominantly a forward.

Personally for me it's not the lack of goals per se that troubles me most. As others have pointed out before I feel like his marking has gone backwards, he is a poor leader (or doesn't know where to lead), he just doesn't seem able to find easy touches. At a minimum I expect a couple of lead up possessions a game, it just doesn't seem to be quite clicking for him.

Hopefully something changes soon.

 

[iameviljez]

+ Scott is the head coach, so I hold him responsable over anyone else over team selection.

Agree, at the end of the day even if he doesn't make the decision, he will have the power to overrule it at some point.

 

[iameviljez]

I try to remember that a lot of very good players take a while to 'click'. And anywhere from 30 to 40 to 50 games is needed, sometimes more.

But you also need innate football nous. And I don't think he has it.

My golden rule is a maximum of 50 games for smalls (which is what Varcoe took), and 70 for talls (which is what Hawkins took). He's very close to that 70.

 

[catempire]

Not saying I disagree - but is that true?

He has the luxury of being the third option to Hawkins and Cameron... it shouldn't get much easier than that. He is pinch hitting occasionally around the ground in the ruck but my gut tells me over the course of his career he has been predominantly a forward.

Personally for me it's not the lack of goals per se that troubles me most. As others have pointed out before I feel like his marking has gone backwards, he is a poor leader (or doesn't know where to lead), he just doesn't seem able to find easy touches. At a minimum I expect a couple of lead up possessions a game, it just doesn't seem to be quite clicking for him.

Hopefully something changes soon.

As a key forward you definitely need supply coming your way. Yes he has the luxury of getting the 3rd KPD but it means nothing if the ball isn’t getting to you.

 

[catempire]

Rhetoric like this is so bizarre to me. How do you know it's CS that has him in the team each week? Equally, how do you know the other coaches aren't fans of Sav?

If you want to hate on Scott you don’t miss an opportunity to do so.

The club has always been transparent that it operates a selection committee and that Scott is sometimes overruled. Inconvenient truth though.

 

[#cats2021]

As a key forward you definitely need supply coming your way. Yes he has the luxury of getting the 3rd KPD but it means nothing if the ball isn’t getting to you.

I understand that.

The point I was making was I am seeing little to no progress in his positioning and ability to get in the right spots for an easy lead up mark etc.

I think it's kicked to him enough, but everything feels like hard work for him, maybe that's just me.

 

[catempire]

I understand that.

The point I was making was I am seeing little to no progress in his positioning and ability to get in the right spots for an easy lead up mark etc.

I think it's kicked to him enough, but everything feels like hard work for him, maybe that's just me.

I agree about his positioning but I stand by the view he doesn’t get to see many chances.

 

[My Tilly]

My golden rule is a maximum of 50 games for smalls (which is what Varcoe took), and 70 for talls (which is what Hawkins took). He's very close to that 70.

He certainly doesn't look out of place like Blicavs did in his first 50 game but he severely lacks the ability to work himself into the game. He must be a confidence player. Needs to get hands on the ball a bit early.
I reckon a run behind the ball could be a go. He's agile enough to stick with key forwards. This is now a period in the clubs rebuilding phase where the coach needs to experiment with young players.

Mooney was trialed in defense in his early days at Geelong, along with playing as the backup ruck and later found his home in the forward line.
Lonergan spent his early days as a key forward and eventually found his home in the backline.

 

[cats_09]

I agree about his positioning but I stand by the view he doesn’t get to see many chances.

Is it a chicken & egg type scenario?

- Is it that he doesn't get to see many chances because he's not leading to the right spots or presenting as a taget?

or

- Is it that he doesn't get to see many chances because his teammates aren't necessarily looking for him, or they're somewhat hesitant to look for him with concerns over his positioning or dropped marks etc?

 

[iameviljez]

He certainly doesn't look out of place like Blicavs did in his first 50 game but he severely lacks the ability to work himself into the game. He must be a confidence player. Needs to get hands on the ball a bit early.
I reckon a run behind the ball could be a go. He's agile enough to stick with key forwards. This is now a period in the clubs rebuilding phase where the coach needs to experiment with young players.

Mooney was trialed in defense in his early days at Geelong, along with playing as the backup ruck and later found his home in the forward line.
Lonergan spent his early days as a key forward and eventually found his home in the backline.

It could be interesting, to say the least... my suspicion is that he will get done for agility.

His main issue on Saturday seemed to be that he was insistent on running and jumping at the footy, and could not get the ball on the lead or push up the ground. As soon as a defender blocked his 1-wood, he was out of it.