Essendon's Problem Doesn't Exist - Dank

[the distributer]

It's obvious Essendon and Dank are going to play the ole 'i don't speak english' game regarding S.0, we thought because it wasn't on the banned list we could use it, your honor!!

 

[mxett]

Irrelevant, because you dont know what Doc Reid did after seeing this evidence. Seeing the letter does not mean that Doc Reid subsequently signed off on it. It is only your assumption that he did.

Youre engaging in a logical fallcy...here's an example

Argument: If it rains, the ground gets wet. The ground is wet, therefore it rained.Problem: There are other ways by which the ground could get wet (e.g. someone spilled water).

Yours is;
Arguement: Doc Reid had to sign off on all drugs given. Doc reid (allegedly) saw evidence of AOD's approval, as essendon used it therefore Doc Reid approved it.
Problem: There are alternative outcomes from Doc Reid seeing this. (eg he didnt approve it and when trying to raise concerns was frozen out).

Either way being the clubs chief medical officer he should have acted. He was included on the emails and nominated as the person responsible for approving all supplements. Why would the group (Hird, Robinson and Dank) decide this only to ignore him?

 

[RegHickeyStand]

EFC have kept Reid inside the tent but booted Dank and Robinson.

Those inside the tent have a massive interest in lying, to protect themselves and the club.

The Doc might be a good bloke, hell he may even be half the man Hirdy is, but he is not above the base of motivation that seems to be driving Hird, Evans and Bomber Thompson.

My thought too. I hope Reid is cleared. He had no blemishes, then Dank turned up and there is now a question mark.

My problem with it is the letter/email. It's being treated like a Holy Grail, one-of-a-kind thing. What was it that was stopping Reid from calling WADA/ASADA? If he had doubt.

It takes two people to lie: one to tell the lie, and the other to choose to believe it.

 

[Chameleon75]

Either way being the clubs chief medical officer he should have acted. He was included on the emails and nominated as the person responsible for approving all supplements. Why would the group (Hird, Robinson and Dank) decide this only to ignore him?

He reportedly did act. He wrote to the board. Other than raising it at the highest levels within the club, what more do you think he could do?

 

[mxett]

Thanks. Will be intersting when that letter was shown to Dr Reid and when Dr Reid went to the board with his concerns. Before or after??.. time will tell.

Many club doctors have expressed concerns about the power of sports science departments in afl clubs. Reids concerns were not necessarily about the supplements but could have been about the processes. Caro reported he was concerned about the off site injections

 

[Tazmania]

Either way being the clubs chief medical officer he should have acted. He was included on the emails and nominated as the person responsible for approving all supplements. Why would the group (Hird, Robinson and Dank) decide this only to ignore him?

Well there are any number of possibilities:
if they thought he was wrong,
if they thought they had found a loophole,
If they thought dank was the expert and could be trusted to know more than the doc,
And the worst, if they said screw it, no one will find out.
If if if.

 

[mxett]

He reportedly did act. He wrote to the board. Other than raising it at the highest levels within the club, what more do you think he could do?

As mike Sheahan said, if he knew banned or dangerous substances were used he should have left. One letter to the board isnt acceptable.

Anyway, this is assuming he didnt see convincing evidence AOD could be used which Doc Bates seems have seen as well

 

[r_boy]

Also not acceptable is EFC don't listen to his concerns. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[pinot]

As mike Sheahan said, if he knew banned or dangerous substances were used he should have left. One letter to the board isnt acceptable.

Anyway, this is assuming he didnt see convincing evidence AOD could be used which Doc Bates seems have seen as well

I agree with you 100% and Dr Reids reputation is on the line. It also depends what the wording of the letter was to the board (it was definitely on the supplements program, we know that much) but the devil would be in the detail.

 

[mxett]

Well there are any number of possibilities:
if they thought he was wrong,
if they thought they had found a loophole,
If they thought dank was the expert and could be trusted to know more than the doc,
And the worst, if they said screw it, no one will find out.
If if if.

And if thats true the people responsible for those actions need to go, even if that included Hird. People are claiming I am protecting Hird which I'm not specifically. I just don't want to hang him if he was told the supplements were approved by someone far more qualified to make that decision.

 

[mxett]

Also not acceptable is EFC don't listen to his concerns. Wouldn't you agree?

Agree, but hardly limited to Essendon. Ive heard Doc Larkins express concerns about the power of sports scientists across the AFL

 

[Chameleon75]

As mike Sheahan said, if he knew banned or dangerous substances were used he should have left. One letter to the board isnt acceptable.

Anyway, this is assuming he didnt see convincing evidence AOD could be used which Doc Bates seems have seen as well

When your club doctor puts it in writing it's quite a serious matter. Most people communicate within an organisation verbally first, to put it in writing and address it to the board is going above everyone's head. That to me suggests he has done as much as can be done.

What does resigning do? They get a new doctor that's all. Keep in mind hird didn't go to Reid for injections, such as it seems the trust that dank had.

 

[15hodge]

If I was to ask my doctor on the best way to administrator heroin, I'd expect him to caution against it and refuse to help me. Far from bein unethical, he would be acting with high ethics.

My point is on the basis of what has been reported nothing suggests to me that doc Reid has breached his duty of care.

This is actually garbage. I agree it looks very bad for Essendon at the moment but in your analogy a good doctor would advice you how to correctly administer heroin to avoid infections, cross contamination and aneurysms, on the basis of harm minimisation.

Your second point is correct because we have no information regarding the docs correspondence with the board or the manner in which he was "frozen out".

There are clear questions that the doc will need to answer. Until we get some answers, I wouldn't be throwing the good doctor under a bus either.

 

[carlton2dabone]

This is actually garbage. I agree it looks very bad for Essendon at the moment but in your analogy a good doctor would advice you how to correctly administer heroin to avoid infections, cross contamination and aneurysms, on the basis of harm minimisation.

Your second point is correct because we have no information regarding the docs correspondence with the board or the manner in which he was "frozen out".

There are clear questions that the doc will need to answer. Until we get some answers, I wouldn't be throwing the good doctor under a bus either.

You got it wrong, he is saying a doctor can advise against it and 'refuse to help' and still be ethical.

 

[doppleganger]

Either way being the clubs chief medical officer he should have acted. He was included on the emails and nominated as the person responsible for approving all supplements.

Why are there reports of other doctors signing off on blood tests and giving advice on player health?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/club-doctor-frozen-out-20130411-2holp.html

Why did Hird go to Dank when he was feeling unwell, to receive injections....why not go to his own family's personal doctor, Dr. Reid?

Can you not see that something doesn't add up.

Reid is supposedly the 'nominated person for supplement program' yet other doctor's are used, Hird doesn't use his own doctor and Dr.Reid had been complaining to the board about the program.

Why would the group (Hird, Robinson and Dank) decide this only to ignore him?

There is one pretty obvious answer....but unfortunately it isn't the answer that you want.

Why are Robinson and Dank no longer at Essendon....yet Hird is still there?

 

[mxett]

When your club doctor puts it in writing it's quite a serious matter. Most people communicate within an organisation verbally first, to put it in writing and address it to the board is going above everyone's head. That to me suggests he has done as much as can be done.

What does resigning do? They get a new doctor that's all. Keep in mind hird didn't go to Reid for injections, such as it seems the trust that dank had.

And Melbourne went off site for injections too.

We know nothing specific about Reids concerns. In my opinion they were more about procedure, control, and risk.

As I said, doctors have had growing concerns about sport science for a while now, not just at Essendon.

 

[Chameleon75]

This is actually garbage. I agree it looks very bad for Essendon at the moment but in your analogy a good doctor would advice you how to correctly administer heroin to avoid infections, cross contamination and aneurysms, on the basis of harm minimisation.

Your second point is correct because we have no information regarding the docs correspondence with the board or the manner in which he was "frozen out".

There are clear questions that the doc will need to answer. Until we get some answers, I wouldn't be throwing the good doctor under a bus either.

It might be a poor analogy granted.

I suppose my point is that if you are advised by a professional and choose to ignore it. Who is to blame?

 

[mxett]

Why are there reports of other doctors signing off on blood tests and giving advice on player health?

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/club-doctor-frozen-out-20130411-2holp.html

Why did Hird go to Dank when he was feeling unwell, to receive injections....why not go to his own family's personal doctor, Dr. Reid?

Can you not see that something doesn't add up.

Reid is supposedly the 'nominated person for supplement program' yet other doctor's are used, Hird doesn't use his own doctor and Dr.Reid had been complaining to the board about the program.


There is one pretty obvious answer....but unfortunately it isn't the answer that you want.

Why are Robinson and Dank no longer at Essendon....yet Hird is still there?

First of all, we have no idea who Hird consulted for his own care. He could easily have discussed it with Reid who had no issue with him seeing Dank. That's all speculation.

Off site care was probably one of the main issues Doc Reid wrote about and with good reason. However Melbourne also used off site clinics for injections.

Per the leaked email Reid was the nominated person for approving supplements, not for the implementation of the program, again similar to Melbournes off site injections.

 

[Saint Shags]

First of all, we have no idea who Hird consulted for his own care. He could easily have discussed it with Reid who had no issue with him seeing Dank. That's all speculation.

Off site care was probably one of the main issues Doc Reid wrote about and with good reason. However Melbourne also used off site clinics for injections.

Per the leaked email Reid was the nominated person for approving supplements, not for the implementation of the program, again similar to Melbournes off site injections.

Problem is that you want to lay any blame - if any - squarely at Reid and no one else...Screams of scapegoat.

 

[doppleganger]

Rubbish.

As I have stated numerous times, if Hird ignored advice from Reid that AOD shouldn't be used then Hird MUST go.

Where have you stated that?

You have stated that Hird cant be held accountable for actions of those underneath him, he cant be expected to be across everything...he is just the coach.

Somebody else is always responsible....Dank, ASADA, Reid, Robinson etc etc

You are happy to entertain some Essendon people bending the rules....but not Hird.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Problem is that you want to lay any blame - if any - squarely at Reid and no one else...Screams of scapegoat.

I think it's a convoluted efficiency thing

Reid = A one person cure all and problems solved.

 

[TP86]

This week has been all about widening the gray area and saturating the media.

It feels like a deliberate attempt to bore and/or confuse the fanbase into losing interest.

 

[doppleganger]

First of all, we have no idea who Hird consulted for his own care. He could easily have discussed it with Reid who had no issue with him seeing Dank. That's all speculation.

Off site care was probably one of the main issues Doc Reid wrote about and with good reason. However Melbourne also used off site clinics for injections.

Per the leaked email Reid was the nominated person for approving supplements, not for the implementation of the program, again similar to Melbournes off site injections.

Everything is speculation at this stage.

Unsurprisingly you are happy to entertain speculation that basically portrays Reid as negligent in his professional duty....yet you completely disregard any speculation that leads to a senior coach doing 'whatever it takes' to get an advantage.

 

[mxett]

Where have you stated that?

You have stated that Hird cant be held accountable for actions of those underneath him, he cant be expected to be across everything...he is just the coach.

Somebody else is always responsible....Dank, ASADA, Reid, Robinson etc etc

You are happy to entertain some Essendon people bending the rules....but not Hird.

As I said, I'm not hanging Hird if he rightfully left the decisions regarding supplement selection on those better qualified. That was the responsible thing to do.

However, If contrary to the leaked email, he didnt let Reid decide on the supplements, or if he ignored Reids advice about supplement selection then Hird should go.

Am I being clear enough yet?

 

[DonsRule]

My thought too. I hope Reid is cleared. He had no blemishes, then Dank turned up and there is now a question mark.

My problem with it is the letter/email. It's being treated like a Holy Grail, one-of-a-kind thing. What was it that was stopping Reid from calling WADA/ASADA? If he had doubt.

It takes two people to lie: one to tell the lie, and the other to choose to believe it.

I think it's one we need to really find out more with, I think with him we're getting the media trying to slant it as Reid knew they were dopping, the club ignored it.

I'd heard early on it was only suspicions, nothing he could proove, note, I am going to be biased, but what if he checked with ASADA, it's legal to use AOD9604 with a compounding chemist, BodySHaper etc. Still unsure, you head to WADA, 'Go check with ASADA' back to square 1, do you completely hang co workers out just on a suspicion without evidence?


Were his suspicions ASADA made a mistake? Who exactly does he go to, to report that too, make a note of it sure, and query the club,, hindslight is a great thing and something more should have been done at the time, no doubt. If WADA had given direct evidence at the beginning that AOD9604 was against the S0 help, if all they did was point him back to ASADA, and they were maybe misinformed.

Perhaps some later investigation he found out that it did not have official accreditation, but exactly how long did that take?