Opinion Expectations

[free at last]

I thought it was a pointless rhetorical question.


There is a massive gap between the quality of Geelong 2007-2011 and Fremantle of 2012-2014. Geelong's managed decline has still seen them lose an extra couple of games in the home and away season, and seen them win only one final out of six since their last premiership.

A similarly well managed decline for Freo puts the side out of the top four.

Coaching will continue to be top class.
For me the improvement from the likes of fyfe,Walters,crozier,ballas,sutty,hilly,
tabs and Neale will off set the continued decline of Pav and co. IMO.

 

[Arcassius]

Sydney won the flag from 3rd in 2012, and Saints at least drew a GF in 2010 from 3rd.

I was thinking the other day that 4th never winning a flag was a strange stat because 3rd has won it a few times and then I remembered the teams winning from 3rd mostly had to win their QF (and thus receiving a home PF) and 3rd has a much better chance of beating 2nd in a final than 4th beating the minor premiers.

I still think that if we had gotten over Sydney we would have made the grand final with ease - and beating Sydney wasn't an impossible task, we were in it up until halfway through the 3rd

 

[clogged]

You will find your fortunes turn massively next year with Walters not missing almost the whole season. Hopefully Ballantyne stops the cheap shots too.

But that's the thing - people say if Walters wasn't missing, x & y might have happened. Hawthorn won the whole thing with their best forward playing for the opposition. Good sides deal with it, second rate sides find excuses.

There's an overall lack of class in the forward line, lack of goal scoring drive from the midfield, and a continuing unhealthy reliance on Pavlich as the focal target (how close would Freo have gotten to Sydney in the QF without him). These are problems that keep the side from being "best in the competition". It's not going to get any easier to solve with a number of players nearing the end of their careers.

 

[Mr Peabody]

But that's the thing - people say if Walters wasn't missing, x & y might have happened. Hawthorn won the whole thing with their best forward playing for the opposition. Good sides deal with it, second rate sides find excuses.

There's an overall lack of class in the forward line, lack of goal scoring drive from the midfield, and a continuing unhealthy reliance on Pavlich as the focal target (how close would Freo have gotten to Sydney in the QF without him). These are problems that keep the side from being "best in the competition". It's not going to get any easier to solve with a number of players nearing the end of their careers.

Lack of Class in forward line - I'll accept we lack depth and a continued unhealthy reliance on Pav. Mayne's 2014 was not up to scratch. But Ballantyne and Walters are a class above so don't agree with that at all. Crozier and Taberner show glimpses and they are at the start of their careers.

Lack of goal scoring drive from the midfield - Our mids kicked more goals in total and on average than the Hawks mids.

I don't think it's all doom and gloom. Maybe you'd feel better posting in first person.

 

[clogged]

Lack of Class in forward line - I'll accept we lack depth and a continued unhealthy reliance on Pav. Mayne's 2014 was not up to scratch. But Ballantyne and Walters are a class above so don't agree with that at all. Crozier and Taberner show glimpses and they are at the start of their careers.

Ballantyne and Walters are a class above who? The Hawthorn, Sydney and Port Adelaide forward lines all have more overall talent in their forward lines than Fremantle.

Lack of goal scoring drive from the midfield - Our mids kicked more goals in total and on average than the Hawks mids.

So? That's not the point. Unlike the Hawks, the forward line does not generate high scores, and in return the midfield does not fill in the gap. Premiership winning teams with low scoring forward lines in years past had a deep spread of midfielders who averaged around a goal per game and scored more than 20 for the season. Look at Collingwood in 2010 or Geelong in 2007.

If your forward line can't get it done on the scoreboard, then the midfield needs to, and for Freo neither do it.

Where's the doom and gloom? All I'm saying is that Freo is out of premiership contention in the near term. For long term success, the club needs to treat 2015 as it was in 2012 - half a season of rebuilding the side internally for Lyon to find his formula with the next generation of players.

 

[Taylor]

I'm not sure the team structure allows our midfielders to run too far forward because they can't run back to defend. It all sounds very exhausting.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Where's the doom and gloom? All I'm saying is that Freo is out of premiership contention in the near term. For long term success, the club needs to treat 2015 as it was in 2012 - half a season of rebuilding the side internally for Lyon to find his formula with the next generation of players.

Expand specifically on how you believe Lyon rebuilds the side. If you believe we lack overall forward line class, from whom does he manufacture some in half a season? If we do not have goal scoring drive from the midfield, which players does he flick the switch with in this division? I'm wondering how you'd do it from here in specifics. Which of the next generation add the class and drive you perceive Lyon's best 22 lack?

 

[Taylor]

I think there are these positions available for debate:
LHFF, RHFF, WING, FF, Ruck#2, CHB, LBP

 

[free at last]

Ballantyne and Walters are a class above who? The Hawthorn, Sydney and Port Adelaide forward lines all have more overall talent in their forward lines than Fremantle.


So? That's not the point. Unlike the Hawks, the forward line does not generate high scores, and in return the midfield does not fill in the gap. Premiership winning teams with low scoring forward lines in years past had a deep spread of midfielders who averaged around a goal per game and scored more than 20 for the season. Look at Collingwood in 2010 or Geelong in 2007.

If your forward line can't get it done on the scoreboard, then the midfield needs to, and for Freo neither do it.

Where's the doom and gloom? All I'm saying is that Freo is out of premiership contention in the near term. For long term success, the club needs to treat 2015 as it was in 2012 - half a season of rebuilding the side internally for Lyon to find his formula with the next generation of players.

Go and tell your opinion to RTB that we are out of flag contention.I'm sure he'd put a pretty solid case across to you why freo will be a flag threat in 2015.

 

[simpsonwillo]

With out a doubt we are a flag threat next year. We beat Hawthorn this year convincingly and they were almost full strength. We were too banged up at the wrong time this year. The odds were against us. a bit of luck with injuries this year and we are still a serious team,mark my words.

 

[Wigarus]

Sydney won the flag from 3rd in 2012, and Saints at least drew a GF in 2010 from 3rd.

I was thinking the other day that 4th never winning a flag was a strange stat because 3rd has won it a few times and then I remembered the teams winning from 3rd mostly had to win their QF (and thus receiving a home PF) and 3rd has a much better chance of beating 2nd in a final than 4th beating the minor premiers.

Honestly, if you make good use of your home ground advantage and win the games away you should then top 2 isn't out of the question. Hope for your sake that you pull Sydney, Hawks, Geelong, Port etc all at Subi so you can dispatch them and prevent them from gaining a win.

That won't happen. If it does it means we are playing them twice.

 

[ep2018]

That won't happen. If it does it means we are playing them twice.

You might get a gem of a draw and maybe play these teams once, but all at Subi instead of away.

I know you haven't played Sydney at Subi in ages though. I wonder if that has anything to do with West Coasts alleged request to play Sydney at Subi every year. Apparently teams can request certain fixtures each year and that is one of ours.

 

[Wigarus]

You might get a gem of a draw and maybe play these teams once, but all at Subi instead of away.

I know you haven't played Sydney at Subi in ages though. I wonder if that has anything to do with West Coasts alleged request to play Sydney at Subi every year. Apparently teams can request certain fixtures each year and that is one of ours.

I would be amazed if we played 4 of the top 6 teams once next year. That means that only 1 of them we would be playing twice in North Melbourne. Given that West Coast finished in the middle third and we play them twice each year, that would mean we would be playing 4 teams outside the top 6 twice. Won't happen.

 

[Silent Alarm]

You will find your fortunes turn massively next year with Walters not missing almost the whole season. Hopefully Ballantyne stops the cheap shots too.

He stopped them in about 2011

 

[calaisking]

Think the fixture gets released next week. Expect leaks to come out shortly

 

[clogged]

Expand specifically on how you believe Lyon rebuilds the side. If you believe we lack overall forward line class, from whom does he manufacture some in half a season? If we do not have goal scoring drive from the midfield, which players does he flick the switch with in this division? I'm wondering how you'd do it from here in specifics. Which of the next generation add the class and drive you perceive Lyon's best 22 lack?

Lyon has to do two things in the next two seasons:

Sideline the honest triers whose disposal and creativity is not good enough for forward line and midfield roles.
Find replacements for senior players holding down key positions.

Can he do both as well as win the premiership in 2015?

I doubt it. What specifics do you want? Do you want me to rattle off a list of names who have played less than 25 games and assert they will find a place in the team. Because half of those anyone on here lists won't make it.

 

[pavsbootlace]

I would suggest retaining McPharlin is punting heavily on a premiership next year.

The argument many are making here is that Freo is faced with two choices: running with a very experienced team each week in order to win over 70% of games to squeeze into top four, or inject youth into key areas at the risk of temporarily falling down the ladder (and perhaps missing the eight altogether) with the view that will bring more sustained success.

...snip...

I disagree. I don't think that retaining McPharlin is doing our future endeavours any damage. Tanner Smith is only 20 and was injured most of this year and Alex Pearce is a year younger and very green. Without Luke these guys are playing games before they are ready which I don't think will help us in the PPE (Post-Pavlich Era). We are simply giving those 2 an extra year before throwing them to the wolves.

As for injecting youth, we are apparently 4th in the comp for games played by players under 24. Crozier, Neale, Sutcliffe, Taberner, Apeness, Sheridan all got a shot this year ahead of Clancee, Ibbo, Suban, DeBoer and Sylvia. The club is merely trying to plug hole in our list created by our poor drafting with old blokes while simultaneously developing the young blokes. I don't see a massive slide after Luke and Pav finish, but I don't think those blokes playing this year will win us a flag either.

 

[pavsbootlace]

It's not an opinion.

OK, Steve. I don't doubt you want to win a flag, but I can't see that any of your behaviour has mortgaged the future (see Sydney Swans) to do it.

 

[clogged]

I don't see a massive slide after Luke and Pav finish, but I don't think those blokes playing this year will win us a flag either.

It's more than McPharlin and Pavlich. Seven players will be over 30 next year.

It will be the oldest Freo has been since round 1 2008.

 

[E Shed]

Who gives a toss about being 'up and around top 4' forever? I want to be #1.

Well the thing is, so does everyone else. Only one team can be number one on any given year. If you can't be number one would you rather be the losing team in the GF? Or at least in the finals.

It's more than McPharlin and Pavlich. Seven players will be over 30 next year.

It will be the oldest Freo has been since round 1 2008.

Which was when we started our last rebuild. I think we are doing a good job of keeping the list ticking over and ensuring that we don't completely fall off a cliff when the big 3 retire. But that is what will trigger a mini rebuild. Lets say Pav, McPh and Sandi all retire at the end of next year, then they might look at trading 1 or 2 good players out for picks and go hard at a draft.
Being old isn't a bad thing, Hawthorn's core group are old too.

 

[pavsbootlace]

It's more than McPharlin and Pavlich. Seven players will be over 30 next year.

It will be the oldest Freo has been since round 1 2008.

Sure, but delisting Luke is not the answer. He and Pav are the least replaceable of the 7.

 

[clogged]

Sure, but delisting Luke is not the answer. He and Pav are the least replaceable of the 7.

Regardless of whenever his replacement comes in, they are still going to be heavily inexperienced (save a trade situation). It would be far preferable to have a rookie key defender come in with still a reasonable amount of seniority in the team. Loading up with McPharlin again means the likelihood that a group of retirees leaving in one season increases and therefore three or more inexperienced players are thrown into important roles. And it is that would see the side plummet down the ladder.

McPharlin was irreplaceable four years ago when Tarrant left. He isn't getting any more replaceable, but he will have to be replaced.

 

[Arcassius]

Regardless of whenever his replacement comes in, they are still going to be heavily inexperienced (save a trade situation). It would be far preferable to have a rookie key defender come in with still a reasonable amount of seniority in the team. Loading up with McPharlin again means the likelihood that a group of retirees leaving in one season increases and therefore three or more inexperienced players are thrown into important roles. And it is that would see the side plummet down the ladder.

McPharlin was irreplaceable four years ago when Tarrant left. He isn't getting any more replaceable, but he will have to be replaced.

That's assuming that McPharlin will completely hold another player out. I think (or at least I really hope) that they manage him better and split time between him and our younger talls to help develop them while still having coverage, to prevent your scenario unfolding. Playing and training beside him for a season will benefit our young defenders.

We'll see how it goes during the season.

 

[Taylor]

We could lose Crowley, Duffield, McPharlin, Pavlich and Sandilands at the end of 2015.

Every list manager game I've ever played has taught me that you need your players replaced and out of the side before they retire.

Let's see how we go with that.

 

[clogged]

Being old isn't a bad thing, Hawthorn's core group are old too.

Again, you're comparing a side that has made three GFs in a row, with two premierships. Hawthorn are an already great side who have had to manage their older stars.

Fremantle are simply a good side that has to become great while managing the older stars.