Roast Experiment over. Vardy and Walker

[FredLeDeux]

Scott said that Vardy is our best ruckman.

When and where did he say that?

 

[Partridge]

When and where did he say that?

He's joking if he actually said that. If he or Ottens say they think he will become the number one ruckman, that's fine, in time he might. But no way is he right now, he's not as good as Simpson, and I've seen nothing in the last few weeks that tells me he's any better than West.

In any case, we're going to Perth next week. Any combination other than West and Vardy - irrespective of form - is going to hurt us. Because Blicavs or Walker will get obliterated.

 

[AM]

When and where did he say that?

What CS said in his post match presser in answer to a question as to whether we could take that ruck set-up into a final was:

“Yep! Depends on the opposition a little but we’re not assuming that’s the best that Walker and Vardy can play. They can both in my view be very strong forwards for us as well but there’s no doubt in our mind Vards can be the number one ruckman.”

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

What CS said in his post match presser in answer to a question as to whether we could take that ruck set-up into a final was:

“Yep! Depends on the opposition a little but we’re not assuming that’s the best that Walker and Vardy can play. They can both in my view be very strong forwards for us as well but there’s no doubt in our mind Vards can be the number one ruckman.”

So nothing like saying Vardy is categorically our best ruckman. Glad that's been cleared up. Can anyone ever imagine Chris Scott being so forthright about who was the #1, considering the current situation? If he was coaching the Bulldogs, you'd probably struggle to get him to say definitively that Will Minson is their #1.

 

[Zuta]

So nothing like saying Vardy is categorically our best ruckman. Glad that's been cleared up. Can anyone ever imagine Chris Scott being so forthright about who was the #1, considering the current situation? If he was coaching the Bulldogs, you'd probably struggle to get him to say definitively that Will Minson is their #1.

No on the footy show today he said that from who is available at the moment that Vardy is our number 1 ruckmen. CS has lost the plot a bit lately.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

No on the footy show today he said that from who is available at the moment that Vardy is our number 1 ruckmen. CS has lost the plot a bit lately.

If that's true, it's just weird. Why would you box yourself in like that, when it's pretty clear the answer isn't obvious (to put it mildly) to them? What's wrong with putting the usual spin on it and saying something like 'We have three healthy ruckmen whom we believe are capable of carrying the #1 mantle into September. We also have Josh Walker who is capable of providing relief to any of those three and Hamish McIntosh, who continues to progress and hasn't been ruled out by any means this year.'?

That could be complete rubbish, but it sounds a lot better than declaring that a guy who has just conceded 59 hitouts (to a guy who proabably isn't one of the top dozen or so rucks in the league) is the best we've got in that position. I'm tired of Trent West being hung out to dry and if those comments are accurate, it seems like this board isn't the only place it happens.

 

[dazbroncos]

13 will be McIntosh. Bookmark that.

I'd luv to agree but the master of subdefuge says hmac is done...

We shall see...
Go Catters

 

[cats_09]

No on the footy show today he said that from who is available at the moment that Vardy is our number 1 ruckmen. CS has lost the plot a bit lately.

He said something similar after the Saints game also - in the post match press conference he mentioned Vardy and his comment was along the lines "I previously thought he was more a forward but tonight he showed he is capable of being our #1 ruck". So this is something Scott has been considering for a few weeks at least.

And this from an article in today's Addy, I get the impression that depending on Walker's wrist we might see the same combination this week again:

"Vards is a work in progress,'' Scott said. "Lobbe was good in the ruck, he is a big boy, and parts of the stoppage stuff didn't work all that well for us but certainly the efficiency out of the stoppages and the scoring was well in our favour.''
"We'd like to be getting our hands on the ball but I think it's a mistake to look at isolated parts you have got to look at it in its totality
"For a 10 possession game I thought Vardy's work around the contest was really strong, he looked fantastic breaking away from the contest at times. He didn't hit the scoreboard forward like he can but we're pretty optimistic of what that duo can do and we've still got some options with West and Blicavs as well.''

 

[Zuta]

If that's true, it's just weird. Why would you box yourself in like that, when it's pretty clear the answer isn't obvious (to put it mildly) to them? What's wrong with putting the usual spin on it and saying something like 'We have three healthy ruckmen whom we believe are capable of carrying the #1 mantle into September. We also have Josh Walker who is capable of providing relief to any of those three and Hamish McIntosh, who continues to progress and hasn't been ruled out by any means this year.'?

That could be complete rubbish, but it sounds a lot better than declaring that a guy who has just conceded 59 hitouts (to a guy who proabably isn't one of the top dozen or so rucks in the league) is the best we've got in that position. I'm tired of Trent West being hung out to dry and if those comments are accurate, it seems like this board isn't the only place it happens.

Yea, I was very surprised when he just said straight up Vardy is the #1 considering he has gone on about how we have 4 guys that can play a part etc etc.

 

[catempire]

He said something similar after the Saints game also - in the post match press conference he mentioned Vardy and his comment was along the lines "I previously thought he was more a forward but tonight he showed he is capable of being our #1 ruck". So this is something Scott has been considering for a few weeks at least.

And this from an article in today's Addy, I get the impression that depending on Walker's wrist we might see the same combination this week again:

Thanks for that quote from Chris Scott. I think that sheds some light on their thinking with the ruck setup and why they place as much confidence in Vardy as they do. What we can take from it is clearly, the starting point for analysis is more than looking at raw hitout numbers.

 

[Partridge]

If that's true, it's just weird. Why would you box yourself in like that, when it's pretty clear the answer isn't obvious (to put it mildly) to them? What's wrong with putting the usual spin on it and saying something like 'We have three healthy ruckmen whom we believe are capable of carrying the #1 mantle into September. We also have Josh Walker who is capable of providing relief to any of those three and Hamish McIntosh, who continues to progress and hasn't been ruled out by any means this year.'?

That could be complete rubbish, but it sounds a lot better than declaring that a guy who has just conceded 59 hitouts (to a guy who proabably isn't one of the top dozen or so rucks in the league) is the best we've got in that position. I'm tired of Trent West being hung out to dry and if those comments are accurate, it seems like this board isn't the only place it happens.

Yeah, the confirmation bias is real and it is really rampant around here. At the club too it seems.

 

[Partridge]

Thanks for that quote from Chris Scott. I think that sheds some light on their thinking with the ruck setup and why they place as much confidence in Vardy as they do. What we can take from it is clearly, the starting point for analysis is more than looking at raw hitout numbers.

So when West gets more hitouts than Vardy did on Saturday, and we lose the clearances, it means that he's shit and shouldn't be in the team. When Vardy gets less hitouts, gets annihilated by a modest ruckman and we lose the clearances, it means he's our number one ruckman?

Yeah, that sounds fair.

 

[Hoffy95]

If the club can afford to play/carry Varcoe into form, which Chris Scott has admitted, surely a bloke like West who would be filling a desperate void should be afforded the same opportunity. He should be playing every remaining game of the regular season, irrespective of whether his VFL form suggests he deserves selection. The failure of the current setup is reason enough. If he doesn't perform, at least we've done our due diligence.

 

[cats_09]

So when West gets more hitouts than Vardy did on Saturday, and we lose the clearances, it means that he's shit and shouldn't be in the team. When Vardy gets less hitouts, gets annihilated by a modest ruckman and we lose the clearances, it means he's our number one ruckman?

Yeah, that sounds fair.

Prior to this weekends match Lobbe was ave 24.4 hitouts per game. That puts him above Giles, Ryder, Pyke, Nicholls, Jolly, Maric, Bailey, Griffin, Bellchambers, Z. Clarke, McEvoy & West amongst others. It would have had him sitting about 15 for ave hitouts - after his 59 on the weekend he has moved into the top 10. If the main job of a ruckman is to win hitouts and Lobbe is winning more hitouts than those guys, is he still modest or did we just underestimate his abilities?

West is sitting 27th in the league for Ave hitouts (21.1) - so if Lobbe is a modest ruck, what does that make West? Can't be anything more than modest. So we should have played 1 modest ruck against another maybe?

Simpson was our only ruck this year to really dominate in the center and give our guys first use of the ball more often than not. So with Simpson gone the MC has to work out the best combination for our rucks and what they have to offer the team as a whole.

 

[catempire]

So when West gets more hitouts than Vardy did on Saturday, and we lose the clearances, it means that he's shit and shouldn't be in the team. When Vardy gets less hitouts, gets annihilated by a modest ruckman and we lose the clearances, it means he's our number one ruckman?

Yeah, that sounds fair.

If you can find someone that has put that spin on it I'd be very surprised.

 

[catempire]

If the club can afford to play/carry Varcoe into form, which Chris Scott has admitted, surely a bloke like West who would be filling a desperate void should be afforded the same opportunity. He should be playing every remaining game of the regular season, irrespective of whether his VFL form suggests he deserves selection. The failure of the current setup is reason enough. If he doesn't perform, at least we've done our due diligence.

The difference is, Varcoe can be about 200% better than he currently is. West perhaps 25% better, at best.

 

[Partridge]

If you can find someone that has put that spin on it I'd be very surprised.

Chris Scott. He said Vardy is our number one ruckman right now. I would say very clearly, based on what? One good game against St.Kilda? He had 4 hitouts against North in an entire game - West had 14 in barely over a half in the same game and was hung, drawn and quartered.

That's the spin I'm talking about.

 

[catempire]

Chris Scott. He said Vardy is our number one ruckman right now. I would say very clearly, based on what? One good game against St.Kilda? He had 4 hitouts against North in an entire game - West had 14 in barely over a half in the same game and was hung, drawn and quartered.

That's the spin I'm talking about.

Read the quote from Scott again:

"Vards is a work in progress,'' Scott said. "Lobbe was good in the ruck, he is a big boy, and parts of the stoppage stuff didn't work all that well for us but certainly the efficiency out of the stoppages and the scoring was well in our favour.''

"We'd like to be getting our hands on the ball but I think it's a mistake to look at isolated parts you have got to look at it in its totality"

"For a 10 possession game I thought Vardy's work around the contest was really strong, he looked fantastic breaking away from the contest at times. He didn't hit the scoreboard forward like he can but we're pretty optimistic of what that duo can do and we've still got some options with West and Blicavs as well.''

​

Quite clearly, it's NOT about hitouts.

 

[cats_09]

Another thing we need to consider is that the MC knows what West has to offer as a ruckman, and how he goes when playing as the #1 ruck with stoppage work etc. So maybe its just a case of the MC wanting to see how Vardy goes taking on the role of the #1 ruck and if he will be capable of doing so going into the finals with the help of someone like Walker or Blitz, or whether West needs to return to help.

And before anyone starts complaining how its too late in the season to be playing around with the best 22 and the best combination etc - go back to 2011 and the point at which Scott & the MC decided to stick with Hawkins ahead of Mooney. As of Rnd 21 that year, Mooney was still deemed to be our #1 forward who would partner with Pods in the finals; he got himself suspended against the Crows, bye was rnd 22 so had to sit out rnd 23 against the Swans, in that match Hawkins had 13 disposals, 3 marks, 1 behind, 1 tackle, 1 hitout, 4 inside 50s, 1 free for & 1 free against - nothing to write home about when Mooney is available for selection the next week - but they stuck with Hawkins and we saw the results.

Maybe we should trust that the MC can see something that we can't and just maybe they have an idea of what they are doing and why.

 

[Partridge]

Another thing we need to consider is that the MC knows what West has to offer as a ruckman, and how he goes when playing as the #1 ruck with stoppage work etc. So maybe its just a case of the MC wanting to see how Vardy goes taking on the role of the #1 ruck and if he will be capable of doing so going into the finals with the help of someone like Walker or Blitz, or whether West needs to return to help.

That's all great, but remember that it isn't as simple as Vardy replacing West, because we still need another ruckman. And I don't think Blicavs has got anything left this season, apart from the fact that West is clearly a better ruckman than him anyway. And has been this year. Walker is so far away from being a ruckman he couldn't get there with a Melways. So yes I get that Vardy could be preferred over West, and if Simpson was fit that would be fine. But we're going to need both of them to be even competitive in the ruck for the rest of this season. They tried Vardy and Walker on Saturday and it didn't work, no matter what spin Scott put on it.

 

[cats_09]

That's all great, but remember that it isn't as simple as Vardy replacing West, because we still need another ruckman. And I don't think Blicavs has got anything left this season, apart from the fact that West is clearly a better ruckman than him anyway. And has been this year. Walker is so far away from being a ruckman he couldn't get there with a Melways. So yes I get that Vardy could be preferred over West, and if Simpson was fit that would be fine. But we're going to need both of them to be even competitive in the ruck for the rest of this season. They tried Vardy and Walker on Saturday and it didn't work, no matter what spin Scott put on it.

Say we play the ruck combo of Vardy & West - Vardy as the #1 ruck & West as the #2 - what do we do with West while Vardy is rucking? Can we really have a forward line of Hawkins, West & Pods with Hawkins clearly impaired and West not the quickest or best of movers because I personally find that too slow once the ball hits the ground - if West only needs to do something outside of the ruck for 30% of the time its not so bad as part of that time is on the bench, but if we are rucking Vardy for say 60% of the time I don't know what role we can play West in during that period.
With Walker we know he can play forward, there is a push for him to play down back also - so he has options outside of the ruck, Blicavs has played up forward, down back, on the wing this year, so he also offers something else in terms of a #2 ruck. I don't know what West offers which is why I believe we didn't see the Simpson/West combination either.
I would say that West has to play as the #1 ruck, but it seems the club wants Vardy as the #1 which may just limit our options as to who plays as the #2.

 

[Partridge]

Say we play the ruck combo of Vardy & West - Vardy as the #1 ruck & West as the #2 - what do we do with West while Vardy is rucking? Can we really have a forward line of Hawkins, West & Pods with Hawkins clearly impaired and West not the quickest or best of movers because I personally find that too slow once the ball hits the ground - if West only needs to do something outside of the ruck for 30% of the time its not so bad as part of that time is on the bench, but if we are rucking Vardy for say 60% of the time I don't know what role we can play West in during that period.
With Walker we know he can play forward, there is a push for him to play down back also - so he has options outside of the ruck, Blicavs has played up forward, down back, on the wing this year, so he also offers something else in terms of a #2 ruck. I don't know what West offers which is why I believe we didn't see the Simpson/West combination either.
I would say that West has to play as the #1 ruck, but it seems the club wants Vardy as the #1 which may just limit our options as to who plays as the #2.

I do. Hitouts. Still the number one requirement for a ruckman. He wins more of them than Vardy, and much, much more than either Blicavs or Walker.

West either sits on the bench like all resting ruckmen do, or he rotates through the forward line as either Pods or Hawkins (or whoever) take spells on the bench. Again, as all ruckmen do these days.

Key point with Blicavs, yes he might have played in various positions this year aside from the ruck. More accurately, he might have jogged through there at times. Has he played well in any of these spots? I'd say no. The adoration for him is so great that he if wanders through the opposition goalsquare for three seconds he can suddenly play full back.

I don't see Blicavs or Walker offering anything that West can't, sorry. Walker maybe, maybe as a forward. But that's more than outweighed by how bad he is as a ruckman. 6 hitouts as a 2nd ruckman just isn't enough. Watch what would happen if West got those stats.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Prior to this weekends match Lobbe was ave 24.4 hitouts per game. That puts him above Giles, Ryder, Pyke, Nicholls, Jolly, Maric, Bailey, Griffin, Bellchambers, Z. Clarke, McEvoy & West amongst others. It would have had him sitting about 15 for ave hitouts - after his 59 on the weekend he has moved into the top 10. If the main job of a ruckman is to win hitouts and Lobbe is winning more hitouts than those guys, is he still modest or did we just underestimate his abilities?

West is sitting 27th in the league for Ave hitouts (21.1) - so if Lobbe is a modest ruck, what does that make West? Can't be anything more than modest. So we should have played 1 modest ruck against another maybe?

Simpson was our only ruck this year to really dominate in the center and give our guys first use of the ball more often than not. So with Simpson gone the MC has to work out the best combination for our rucks and what they have to offer the team as a whole.

Lobbe shares the ruck duties with part-timers; every other player on that list either shares the duties with another legitimately capable first ruck, has had an awful year, or - yes - is not better than Lobbe (who is a pretty good ruckman and is only going to get better) at this stage of their respective careers.

He wins more hit outs than a lot of those guys, because he's in more ruck contests than them. The statistics available to the public for AFL ruckmen are so primitive, it's laughable. Why would you not have a '% of hit outs won' stat? Bellchambers and Ryder have each other. Griffin and Clarke have each other, or Sandilands, Pyke has Mumford. McEvoy and Maric have had terrible years. Jolly nearly can't jump at this stage of his career. And if I could pick my own team for the 2013 finals and could select any of the remaining ruckmen on the list, yes, I'd choose Lobbe.

 

[catempire]

The statistics available to the public for AFL ruckmen are so primitive, it's laughable. Why would you not have a '% of hit outs won' stat?

So true. You hear Chris Scott talk about things like scores from stoppages which we can't get either. Understanding what the coaches are thinking without the quality of data they have access to is very difficult.

All I can say is that Scott is clearly intimating that he likes what he sees with Vardy in terms of things other than hitouts. As supporters, without the data and depth of analysis he has access to, we can only assume that he has a sound basis for that view.

 

[dazbroncos]

Just so I get this right, some people are seriously going after a coach (and MC I guess) that has come in , won a flag and games at about a clip of about 80% or more.

Also, rotated a plethora of new younger players into the system and is ensuring that we have a solid group of 18 - 24 year old players that will be hitting 40 -80 games really soon. And not gifted games either. And we are second on the ladder 7 years after our first flag of the recent era when we should, by rights and AFL design, be about 11th or worse...

I have no issue with opinion and thoughts - it is the WWW after all. But sometime I just have to think that we all should be a Demons supporter for a few weeks just to see how it feels - for those of course who dont remember 96 - 00.

We have players in injury and form slumps, we have players that have massive potential and the highest of hopes. If being 2nd after 20 rounds is the "slide" and bumps we have to endure, then this is great.

Maybe im too soft to make the hard calls - and thats probably fair - but I just cant tear shreds off people that have been upfront and provided me with the best 7 year ride of my 40 years ( that is far from over yet) .... My memory just aint that short...

Go Catters