F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - Abbott agrees to buy more, more, more.

[kranky al]

this is beyond stupid

the mines are in the bloody desert - and its the mines that you think china is going to invade us for

and most chinese people are not trained in the pla, and much of the pla has policing functions in china (so they arent going anywhere)

this kind of thing belongs on the conspiracy board

They already have a million soldiers

do you think if they planned on expansion they would

A) train less new soldiers

b) train more?

and mate they dont need soldiers at every minesite - do you think that's how you defend an asset?

they just have a bunch of soldiers in karratha and port headland and geraldton and perth and tell the miners to get to work -they have their families. As they move in they replace our management and workers with their own.


and as for the conspiracy board - if you had asked anyone in 1988 if the us would invade and occupy iraq and afghanistan within a couple of years of each other - they would have laughed at you .....hysterically

As i mentioned before - the falklands is a case study in the sorts of strange illogical things a dictatorship does when its in trouble from within.

countries invading each other and stealing s**t isnt something you put in the conspiracy board - its normal - humans have done it all throughout history....

 

[Ned_Flanders]

They already have a million soldiers

do you think if they planned on expansion they would

A) train less new soldiers

b) train more?

and mate they dont need soldiers at every minesite - do you think that's how you defend an asset?

they just have a bunch of soldiers in karratha and port headland and geraldton and perth and tell the miners to get to work -they have their families. As they move in they replace our management and workers with their own.


and as for the conspiracy board - if you had asked anyone in 1988 if the us would invade and occupy iraq and afghanistan within a couple of years of each other - they would have laughed at you .....hysterically

As i mentioned before - the falklands is a case study in the sorts of strange illogical things a dictatorship does when its in trouble from within.

countries invading each other and stealing sh*t isnt something you put in the conspiracy board - its normal - humans have done it all throughout history....

a large occupying army needs to be well trained and disciplined - not fresh recruits

now this isnt a problem if you move the entire PLA to Australia, BUT:

1) the PLA do a significant amount of work that our police, fed police, customs, and even emergency services do (yes they do have coppers and the like, but anything bleeding into security tends to be managed by the PLA). so you still need a significant number of PLA troops in China proper.

2) Tibet and Xinjiang both require significant PLA presence

3) if China is invading Australia, Hong Kong will be under occupation, Taiwan invaded, and islands in the SCS fully garrisoned. This will soak up massive numbers (esp Taiwan which will have to be reinforced against invasion from the USA)

All of this means even bringing in 1,000,000 green rookies isnt enough to cover domestic and other issues. Esp if they are running mega sized detention camps.

As for your examples, again bullshit

- USA were involved in the afghan wars in the 1980's (supplying and training the afghan resistance)
- the Argentinian's have a long outstanding claim on the Falklands, and it was one they were getting a fair bit of support on (until they went hot)

again, for the twentieth time - why steal resources in an effort that will cost trillions, when you can buy them without issue more cheaply from the same place? FFS we are still selling the mines themselves to the chinese.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

 

[CD Xbow]

Sprey is not regarded as a reliable source and wrong about most things. He frequently appears on Russia Today to bag the F35, he overstates his role in developing the F16, ie he had no actual role in designing the plane, he did have a role in conceptualising a light weight fighter. He is on record bagging the F15 strongly - a criticism which has aged very badly and I expect the same will happen to his criticism of the F35. He has said the plane would never cost under $200 million (price now $80 million for the F35A).

Neither Koop & Goon, nor Ron Gottleib, (the economist in the Australian who also constantly bags the F35) are regarded as accurate and factual. I actually suspect there's a bit of support by Boeing for these guys as Boeing was the big loser with the F35 (think Trillion dollar loser)

I heard these guys talking years ago and like you, I was concerned we were buying an expensive lemon. If you talk to air force people you will find these guys are basically talking BS. Certainly the cost concerns during the project were real, but the unit cost has got under control and is now less than a geared up 4th generation fighter like the F15ex.

Added: This is from the wikipedia

" 2017 saw widespread questioning of Sprey's perspective on the F-35. In the Paris Air Show that year, an F-35A demonstrated a range of complex aerobatic maneuvers that led commentators in the aviation and popular press to question Sprey's allegations that the F-35 was incapable of flying at low level, at low speeds, or with the agility of the F-16.[26][27] In addition, defense-related blogs carried interviews with pilots who fly and train others to fly the F-35 who report that it has higher angle of attack and better close-in maneuverability than the F-16 during dogfighting. "

Sprey is a man with an agenda.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

 

[CD Xbow]

Baltimore you can do better than that. Hysterical announcements of 'Failed fighter jets', 'Take a trillion dollars and burn it' very powerful and fact free statements, possibly even less factual than Pierre Sprey. Seriously that's a really cr*p video and a complete waste of time.

You understand the unit price is less than modern 4th generation fighters and the F35 comes with all the goodies built in. How is that 'take a trillion dollars and burn it. It's a trillion dollar project because it's sticker price is 78 million USD x 1700 plus jets for the US, horrendously large numbers. So far 555 jets have been delivered world wide to more than 10 air forces. How is it failed? In red flag operations the f35 is getting 15 to 1 kill ratios. It has shown it's achieving more in the SEADs missions than using multiple other platforms simultaneously. Israel has used it successfully in these high risk missions already. So no, it's not a failed fighter jet in any way shape of form, what you are seeing is the phenomena of the first fighter jet of the social media age.

I want to give our airman the best chance in a fight, and the F35 provides that.

Yep, it's more expensive than fourth generation to run, but that shouldn't come as a surprise.

The video does name the real source of the anti F35 propaganda, Boeing.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

South Korea Unveils First New KF-21 ‘Boramae’ Stealth Fighter

A mixture of high cost and low reliability have led a number of nations to seek their own indigenous alternatives to the US’ F-35 stealth fighter, including US partners like South Korea and Japan that have also agreed to buy some of the jets.

Photos: South Korea Unveils First New KF-21 ‘Boramae’ Stealth Fighter

A mixture of high cost and low reliability have led a number of nations to seek their own indigenous alternatives to the US’ F-35 stealth fighter, including US partners like South Korea and Japan that have also agreed to buy some of the...

sputniknews.com

 

[CD Xbow]

South Korea Unveils First New KF-21 ‘Boramae’ Stealth Fighter

A mixture of high cost and low reliability have led a number of nations to seek their own indigenous alternatives to the US’ F-35 stealth fighter, including US partners like South Korea and Japan that have also agreed to buy some of the jets.

Photos: South Korea Unveils First New KF-21 ‘Boramae’ Stealth Fighter

A mixture of high cost and low reliability have led a number of nations to seek their own indigenous alternatives to the US’ F-35 stealth fighter, including US partners like South Korea and Japan that have also agreed to buy some of the...

sputniknews.com

Baltimore you really are struggling with this one. Don't believe sputnik news, it makes you look stupid. The reason why the Russians run continuous anti F35 propaganda is because they don't want to have to face it, it creates real problems for them.

SK and Japan have been designing their own next generation fighters for many years. It is nothing to do with the F35 at all. They want sovereign capability. Both countries have previously built indigenous supersonic combat jets, mostly built around US tech.

They also have the F35.

As for cost, the KFX is expected to be a bit more expensive than an F35A, for a less capable 4.5 generation jet. The Japanese jet is supposedly something like the F22 raptor, big, stealthy 5th generation jet with a sticker price greater than $200 million USD and having running costs far greater than F35.

You really shouldn't parrot easily dismissed Russian propaganda so thoughtlessly, I expected better of you.

Added: F35 results at Red Flag 20:1 "Kill-Ratio": How Just One F-35 Can Kill Twenty Enemy Fighter Jets | The National Interest

 

[Elroo]

Australia cancelling the shitful $90+ billion submarine contract with the French, and looks like buying and off the shelf Nuclear powered US design.

New ‘AUKUS’ alliance brings nuclear submarines to Australia, snubs France, as China aggression grows in Indo-Pacific region (afr.com)

Washington

| Australia will obtain nuclear submarines for the first time under a new alliance with the United States and the United Kingdom called AUKUS, which has been set up to strengthen the military presence and operability of allies in the Indo-Pacific.

US President Joe Biden, Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison and British Prime Minister Boris Johnson announced the new partnership at 7am AEST.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Australia cancelling the shitful $90+ billion submarine contract with the French, and looks like buying and off the shelf Nuclear powered US design.

New ‘AUKUS’ alliance brings nuclear submarines to Australia, snubs France, as China aggression grows in Indo-Pacific region (afr.com)

Surprised by the nuclear propulsion part considering we have no real industry to support it. Yay for self-reliance though...

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Surprised by the nuclear propulsion part considering we have no real industry to support it. Yay for self-reliance though...

The US would do all the servicing (Florida I believe) as they do with the UK Trident Subs

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

The US would do all the servicing (Florida I believe) as they do with the UK Trident Subs

They have all the source codes as well. Real blow to the naval program and the ASC.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Some reports it will be the Virginia Class Attack Sub

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Some reports it will be the Virginia Class Attack Sub

Not surprised in the slightest.

This places the whole rolling drumbeat of the naval shipbuilding program in grave jeopardy.

 

[madmug]

Surprised by the nuclear propulsion part considering we have no real industry to support it. Yay for self-reliance though...

We should have had nuclear attack submarines in the RAN 20 years ago.

A place the size of Australia & its surrounding oceans, plus the distances ships have to travel to foreign ports, are really only able to be covered by nuclear Submarines.

We'd never be able to be self reliant with all aspects of such equipment. No matter, we would be able to produce some aspects of the Subs here.

We aren't self reliant in aircraft, nor many of the weapons we use. So what if its one more platform we rely on the UK & US for. We're only a small player, but in a strategic position.

 

[Elroo]

Not surprised in the slightest.

This places the whole rolling drumbeat of the naval shipbuilding program in grave jeopardy.

We'll probably hear an announcement of the upgunning of the 14 new OPV's being built. The ones that were designed with SSM but we decided to not go with this, just a vessel with a single 40mm main gun and 2 x .50 cals.

 

[Juddism]

What a mess...we don't know what we want!

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

We should have had nuclear attack submarines in the RAN 20 years ago.

A place the size of Australia & its surrounding oceans, plus the distances ships have to travel to foreign ports, are really only able to be covered by nuclear Submarines.

We'd never be able to be self reliant with all aspects of such equipment. No matter, we would be able to produce some aspects of the Subs here.

We aren't self reliant in aircraft, nor many of the weapons we use. So what if its one more platform we rely on the UK & US for. We're only a small player, but in a strategic position.

I agree on the nuclear part. We should have committed a long time ago and built the industry to support it.

I am not talking self-sufficiency, that is unattainable. Self-reliance is something different. Our industry will have bugger all involvement in this one and resupply/deep maintenance/source codes/systems/design knowledge/etc will all be US-sourced.

The question remains how much sovereign control are we willing to give up.

.

 

[Elroo]

What was also included in the PM's announcement was the purchase of:

• Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, to be fielded on Navy’s Hobart class destroyers; and
• Joint Air to Surface Standoff Missiles (Extended Range > 925 km) for our Air Force.

 

[madmug]

I agree on the nuclear part. We should have committed a long time ago and built the industry to support it.

I am not talking self-sufficiency, that is unattainable. Self-reliance is something different. Our industry will have bugger all involvement in this one and resupply/deep maintenance/source codes/systems/design knowledge/etc will all be US-sourced.

The question remains how much sovereign control are we willing to give up.

.

You'll need to ask Scumo that one.

As far as the deep technical matters go, the US may have doubts about our ability to keep secrets.

I'm not sure about the Subs, but perhaps they feel that we'd leak like a sieve!

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

You'll need to ask Scumo that one.

As far as the deep technical matters go, the US may have doubts about our ability to keep secrets.

I'm not sure about the Subs, but perhaps they feel that we'd leak like a sieve!

O, I know they don't completely trust us.

I have written a whole PhD thesis on the ever-so curious procurement relationship.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

What was also included in the PM's announcement was the purchase of:

• Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, to be fielded on Navy’s Hobart class destroyers; and
• Joint Air to Surface Standoff Missiles (Extended Range > 925 km) for our Air Force.

The JASSM-ER's have been on the table for a little while now and it is good we are finally committed to some proper longer range cruise missiles. They would be losing their minds over at ASPI.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

 

[CD Xbow]

You'll need to ask Scumo that one.

As far as the deep technical matters go, the US may have doubts about our ability to keep secrets.

I'm not sure about the Subs, but perhaps they feel that we'd leak like a sieve!

I don't think so. We are planning on using the US combat system which ever platform we choose. They wouldn't let us if they had concerns. The USN helped work out the problems with the Kokums propeller and noisy hydrodynamics on the Collins.

 

[madmug]

I don't think so. We are planning on using the US combat system which ever platform we choose. They wouldn't let us if they had concerns. The USN helped work out the problems with the Kokums propeller and noisy hydrodynamics on the Collins.

Mechanical issue of the Collins class subs when first introduced are a bit different to the high tech secrets the US have developed in their nuclear Subs.

Anyway I'm sure they'll sort out any concerns.

ie make sure we don't use Scumo's birth date as our security password etc.