Fascism - What is the likelihood of it really taking hold in Australia?

[faible]

this is the issue I keep having with you

you want to argue what things aren't not what they are

you then bog conversation down in your definition of what a word means rather than anything else

its tiresome and I don't believe it actually achieves what you think it will, which is to get people to agree what a word means and only use it in the agreed fashion

people don't work that way

I agree we're unlikely to become a fascist state because I don't think they will need to go to that specific point to get what they want

but that doesn't mean we couldn't become a fascist state

that doesn't mean that there isn't an element of the population that does want a fascist state

the question really should be how many people are there that want this and how successful are they at getting into positions of power

you think the people behind Project 2025 aren't trying to replicate what they are doing in America in every major western democracy right now?

regardless of whether we specifically get fascism there is a definite push in western democracies to become more authoritarian and that is going to increase the risk of fascism taking root, not decrease it

The only reason this has become bogged down is because you began a long-winded thread to ultimately say the same thing I did!

I agree we're unlikely to become a fascist state because I don't think they will need to go to that specific point

regardless of whether we specifically get fascism there is a definite push in western democracies to become more authoritarian

It's not fascism. Fascism isn't the only problematic thing to be worrying about.

 

[Number37]

It's not meaningless twaddle.

You just keep saying things that aren't fascist as arguments that somehow the government is doing fascist things.

If the government does problematic things, that aren't fascist, then it's not fascist. Problematic things are still problematic.

You seem to be arguing that the sole form of problematic government is fascist ones, when there's plenty of others out there that are just as problematic for the people living under them and far more likely to occur in the Australian context IMO.

I'd be far more concerned about plutocracy or oligarchy here than fascism.

Before 1922 were Mussolini's Blackshirts fascist? Did they do fascist things? No.
Between 1922 and 1925 was Mussolini's govt fascist? Did it do fascist things? By your argument. No.
What about between 1925 and 1929?

 

[faible]

Before 1922 were Mussolini's Blackshirts fascist? Did they do fascist things? No.
Between 1922 and 1925 was Mussolini's govt fascist? Did it do fascist things? By your argument. No.
What about between 1925 and 1929?

FMD mate. It’s like you can’t read or something.

If the government does problematic things, that aren't fascist, then it's not fascist. Problematic things are still problematic.

You seem to be arguing that the sole form of problematic government is fascist ones, when there's plenty of others out there that are just as problematic for the people living under them and far more likely to occur in the Australian context IMO.

It's not fascism. Fascism isn't the only problematic thing to be worrying about.

 

[Number37]

FMD mate. It’s like you can’t read or something.

Fascism - What is the likelihood of it really taking hold in Australia?​

 

[faible]

Fascism

Yes. Fascism.

Not 'bad government' or 'plutocracy' or even 'authoritarianism'.

 

[Number37]

I think its worth remembering that western democracies have been doing these sorts of things without being fascist for literally decades

Western Imperial power isn't benevolent as much as it tries to sell itself as such

and Australia is part of that machine so of course these sorts of things happen here

Australia wants to be a power in its own right, we've got decades of doing terrible things in the region, our treatment of asylum seekers is deplorable

our treatment of Indigenous people is deplorable

but most people don't tend to notice or care until it looks like it could happen to them specifically

and then at that point we start talking about fascism because they could come for us next

but they don't need to be fascists to do that, so they probably won't unless it becomes necessary to protect the money and power

Depriving a person of their liberty isn't fascism but there is nothing worse than depriving a person of their liberty.
Indefinite detention opened the door to preventative detention which opened the door to criminal guilt by association.
In the space of less than 20 years depriving a person of their liberty without the use of the judiciary became cool & normal.
Some people would say tHaTs NoT fAsCiSm.
It's not fascism, it's worse than fascism.
ie Our govt currently does things worse than fascism.

 

[Number37]

Yes. Fascism.

Not 'bad government' or 'plutocracy' or even 'authoritarianism'.

Depriving a person of their liberty without reference to the judicial system is not 'bad govt' or 'plutocracy' or 'authoritarianism', and it's not fascism.
Depriving a person of their liberty without reference to the judiciary is far worse than any of those things.

 

[faible]

Depriving a person of their liberty without reference to the judicial system is not 'bad govt' or 'plutocracy' or 'authoritarianism', and it's not fascism.
Depriving a person of their liberty without reference to the judiciary is far worse than any of those things.

Ok?

But this is a thread specifically about fascism.

If it's not fascism, but it's something else bad, then it's not fascism.

The question wasn't 'what is the likelihood of problematic decisions being made by the Australian government'.

 

[Number37]

Ok?

But this is a thread specifically about fascism.

If it's not fascism, but it's something else bad, then it's not fascism.

The question wasn't 'what is the likelihood of problematic decisions being made by the Australian government'.

More meaningless twaddle.

The most recognised fasicst govt in history did not start off as fascist.
Did some bad things, but they weren't fascism.
And yet, look where they ended up.

I understand that that doesn't suit your strawman arguments, but have a think about it.

 

[faible]

More meaningless twaddle.

The most recognised fasicst govt in history did not start off as fascist.
Did some bad things, but they weren't fascism.
And yet, look where they ended up.

I understand that that doesn't suit your strawman arguments, but have a think about it.

I repeat:

FMD mate. It’s like you can’t read or something.

 

[Number37]

I repeat:

Meaningless twaddle.

 

[faible]

Meaningless twaddle.

You're rapidly reaching Zidane levels of inanity.

 

[Number37]

You're rapidly reaching Zidane levels of inanity.

Even your ad-homs are meaningless twaddle.

 

[sherb]

I'm not an expert on the subject, so I went looking. I found this, it lists 20 warning signs of fascism (listed at the bottom of the page I have linked below).

A significant number of these you could apply to the current US administration, but I'm not if we are that close to too many of them in Australia currently.

What Is Fascism? - Recognize the Warning Signs

Fascism doesn't start with tanks in the streets. Learn to recognize the warning signs before it's too late.

whatisfascism.org

 

[Gralin]

I'm not an expert on the subject, so I went looking. I found this, it lists 20 warning signs of fascism (listed at the bottom of the page I have linked below).

A significant number of these you could apply to the current US administration, but I'm not if we are that close to too many of them in Australia currently.

What Is Fascism? - Recognize the Warning Signs

Fascism doesn't start with tanks in the streets. Learn to recognize the warning signs before it's too late.

whatisfascism.org

You could argue 8-9 of them exist in Australia to vary degrees and there are sections of the media and polticial class trying to increase the degree to which they exist

A couple of others are on the list of being attempted

 

[Gralin]

Of course the degree to which most of this exists in Australia or is at risk of existing compared to the US currently is pretty far apart

But the same money interests behind this in the US are putting money into this in the UK and here and elsewhere

So we've got to remember that

 

[faible]

Even your ad-homs are meaningless twaddle.

Never go full Zidane.

 

[faible]

I'm not an expert on the subject, so I went looking. I found this, it lists 20 warning signs of fascism (listed at the bottom of the page I have linked below).

A significant number of these you could apply to the current US administration, but I'm not if we are that close to too many of them in Australia currently.

What Is Fascism? - Recognize the Warning Signs

Fascism doesn't start with tanks in the streets. Learn to recognize the warning signs before it's too late.

whatisfascism.org

A number of them would consistently appear across all forms of problematic government.

For example;

Controlled Mass Media
Corporate Power Protected
Labor Power Suppressed
Obsession with Crimes and Punishment

These are things pretty much any government will do if they're trying to do bad things, hell even those not necessarily trying to do actively bad things do them to help maintain the status quo (aka our major party duopoly).

Look at Australia; we've got a mass media largely controlled by a couple of people, both of whom are very cosy with both major parties. Big corporates have way too much impact on our political landscape. Labor power comes secondary to big corporates, the unionised labor might 'win' but it's rarely genuinely at the expenses of corporate power. And we're seeing plenty of obsession with crime and punishment even from ALP governments at the moment.

None of this necessarily benefits the average voter, but it's also not fascism.

It's the combination of things problematic governments do, along with the ultranationalism, dictatorship, whitewashing of history and such that make it specifically fascist.

I think Australians should be more worried about plutocratic or oligarchic style issues in the short-term than fascist ones. All the focus on fascism is a distraction from the dodgy stuff going on right now.

Neither major party is appropriately managing the finite natural resources we have. Norway have planned ahead far better. Neither major party is dealing with the long-term housing issues we're obviously creating. Neither major party is interested in proper tax reform. Neither major party is moving the needle on education or healthcare.

They just fiddle around the edges whilst maintaining the status quo those with wealth and/or power already enjoy. It's not fascism, it's not authoritarianism, but it's problematic for the average voter.

 

[10571z]

I'd be surprised if fascism ever took hold. Like proper fascism. But if things get economically bad anything can happen.

 

[Number37]

I'd be surprised if fascism ever took hold. Like proper fascism. But if things get economically bad anything can happen.

What's stopping fascism from taking hold?
What safeguards are there to stop it from taking hold?

The govts who have stripped away the safeguards are not the ones that are going to lead us to fascism.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Keep in mind that in nearly every (if not every) historical case of fascism taking hold, the path to power was to get elected democratically, and then use the legitimacy of having been elected democratically to dismantle the democracy from above.

 

[10571z]

What's stopping fascism from taking hold?
What safeguards are there to stop it from taking hold?

The govts who have stripped away the safeguards are not the ones that are going to lead us to fascism.

Well you can't really safeguard against anything.

The wrong person takes power they can take piece by piece.

 

[Number37]

Well you can't really safeguard against anything.

The wrong person takes power they can take piece by piece.

It is not possible to 100% safeguard against anything.
Our system of govt had for a long time things inbuilt that safeguarded against things like fascism.
Not so much anymore.
In many ways the changes have opened the door to fascism.

But hey, undermining and/or removing fundamental principles of democracy is just 'problematic govt' like differences in tax reform policies.

 

[BomToydd]

I don't think compulsory or preferential voting can safeguard against this. Democracy won't survive and Australia will eventually vote for whoever these people want when they turn their attention here. Just look at the rise of Reform UK

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Really important article. All should read.

The seven lessons of Nazi history

Occasionally something happens that turns our collective minds to history. That happened this week when Nazis dominated Australian headlines for possibly the first time since the end of World War II. Australia’s Nazis are rattling the cage, trying to transform themselves from a secretive...

www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au