federal Libs ahead in polls

[Briedis]

Originally posted by Joel


That is what they are supposed to do. Doesn't happen when you get militants (may be a slight exaggeration) controlling some of them.

I agree that that can happen, but I think it is better to have them than not.... As a whole unions are run fairly.

 

[TheMase]

Originally posted by Briedis


Exactly, when are people going to wake up to the fact that the current political culture in Australia is about conning voters.

Exactly!!

 

[TigerTank]

Originally posted by Briedis
I would say that the current Democrats political stance is very close to that of the Whitlam-led Labour Party in the mid-70's. And how many wonderful changes were made in that era that increased the quality of life of ALL Australians?

I would say none.

I am with the large proportion of Australians who say that Gough Whitlam was Australia's worst-ever Prime Minister.

Whitlam destroyed the Australian economy by spending too much on useless white elephants like Clyde Cameron College.

You are right about one thing - the Democrats are Whitlam's legacy. They have learned nothing.

 

[TigerTank]

Originally posted by Briedis


Exactly, when are people going to wake up to the fact that the current political culture in Australia is about conning voters.

Can't disagree with that at all. But that's true in every democratic government anywhere. And what makes you think the Democrats, or the Nationals, or the Greens or the Call to Australia Party are any different?

The alternative is to ignore the people completely - it's called totalitarianism.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

...not to mention the Whitlam Governments highly un-orthodox methods in raising loans.

... or how they showed courage and moral leadership over the Indonesian 'annexation' of East Timor

cheers

 

[Pies rock]

My favourite topic as I am majoring in Politics at University.

Anyway, Joel your post have been fantastic and incredibly accurate. To the person that said his dads business would close down under Liberal he has got to be kidding! The ALP's policies are fundamentally anti-business and they hate the fact that business thrive when they're not Government owned. The GST is extremely simple if your business is well-organised. All it does is force you to pay the correct amount of tax on everything, the only reason it may put you out of business is if you are incompetent. It's a s simple as that. Labor Governments all over the world and particularly a staunch union man in Beazley, are obsessed with keeping business down. Their main aim is to control everything and have everything run through the public sector, they do this by granting the Unions too much. What these Labor people must remember is that they are backing Communism when they vote ALP. Labor wants all people to be controlled by themselves and aren't at all interested in free-enterprise. A proven fact is that the ALP cannot run the economy, when they were in power Interest rates went through the roof (17%) and Unemployment skyrocketed (11%) because they tried to keep their Union mates happy. The Libs are professional business people and you can see at the moment, despite the world's economy tumbling around them, Australia's economy is staying strong.

Ansett was ruined by Air New Zealand. They were charging all their fuel, maintenance, food etc. onto Ansett, thus the collapse of the company. That is a management issue and has nothing to do with the Government. Any Labor supporter can question me on any issue, but I've been studying politics for a long time now and the incompetence of the Labor people, mixed with their inability to break away from their Union ties, means they couldn't manage an ant farm, let alone a country. I hope I've convinced at least one person out their that Labor is the wrong way to go, unless they break away from the Unions, they will never be able to govern efficiently. To those of you who will vote ALP at the next election, just ask yourself if you want jobs, if you want to live in a strong economy, with low interest rates and a pwerful stock market.

 

[Briedis]

Originally posted by TigerTank


I would say none.

I am with the large proportion of Australians who say that Gough Whitlam was Australia's worst-ever Prime Minister.

Whitlam destroyed the Australian economy by spending too much on useless white elephants like Clyde Cameron College.

You are right about one thing - the Democrats are Whitlam's legacy. They have learned nothing.

Apart from introducing Medicare, Free education and equal rights for women among many other major benefits we can only dream of having back in todays climate....

OK, so he made a few mistakes, but he so in trying to serve the Australian people. I suggest you read John Pilgers book about the topic....

I think you would be in the minority re Whitlam.....

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

a vote for the ALP is a vote for communism is it pies rock ?

get real mate - its 2001, not 1917 for chrissake !

I live very close to Paul Keating here in Sydney - oh yeah he's a commie alright, lives in a mansion in Woolahra called St Kevins.

Oh yeah and he nearly ran me over the other day - in his Bentley.

Hey at least the Bentley was red - is that what you mean by ALP Communists ?

You say you know politics - what is your definition of communism may i ask ?

oh and please tell me where I can see that the ALP will nationalise industries, nationalise the banks, abolish private wealth and private property, force the population into collective communes, etc etc

Do you honestly think the ALP has an agenda to throw out our current system of government and replace it with a Dictatorship of the Proleteriat ?

are you sure you really know what you are talking about - or did you just want to have a rant at all those Dangerous Trotskites in the ALP - lol

cheers

 

[Pies rock]

Whitlam introduced FREE education did he? FREE benefits such as Medicare? If you did any research on the topic, the ultimate Communist in Whitlam, raised taxes incredibly in this period, people were paying through the nose for these FREE beneifts. As his bumbling ways led to less and less jobs, the fewer people in work were forced to pay more and more in taxes. Talk about a Union man, Whitlam was a fool and was rightfully sacked by Sir John Kerr.

On the other hand, the GST has meant we all pay substantially less tax. Where the increased tax revenue comes from, isn't through the GST making us pay more, it is through business being unable to dodge tax nowadays. Take my next door neighbours plumbing business for example, he used ot be able to do cash deals that weren't recorded and claim back 2000-2500 at tax time each year. Now everything has to be accounted for and he pays the correct amount of tax and only receives about 450-1000. This is where the extra money is coming from, and from this money, the States are able to fund their hospitals and schools.

 

[Pies rock]

Bloodstained Angel, another ignorant lefty. I'll tell you the process they follow from the beginning when they get into power. Surely you know they were begun by the Unions, so straight away they all strike to get what they want, even if the country and business can't afford it. This puts pressure on business and jeopardises their ability to run efficiently and stay viable. They are unable to hire more people because they have to pay them too much - this leads to more dependance on Government welfare (communism at work Bloodstained, you can't deny that). Can you deny they follow Communist ideaology in this sense? I think not.

Beazley is a very similar leader to Whitlam and when he was defence Minister he decided that GAF must go, which has stuffed up our defence and has helped close down Ansett!

 

[Fat Red]

Originally posted by Pies rock
Whitlam introduced FREE education did he? FREE benefits such as Medicare? If you did any research on the topic, the ultimate Communist in Whitlam, raised taxes incredibly in this period, people were paying through the nose for these FREE beneifts.
Yes, Whitlam's achievements cost money. That's what taxes are for, to pay for things that we all benefit from, that we couldn't have if we didn't get together and pay for them

As his bumbling ways led to less and less jobs, the fewer people in work were forced to pay more and more in taxes.

For a politics student, that is a very ignorant slant. Whitlam's govenment was hit by the double whammy of WORLDWIDe stagflation, ie inflation without growth, a completely new economic phenomenon caused mostly by the oil price rises.

Admittedly they didn't cope very well with it, but neither did most other governments around the world.

Talk about a Union man, Whitlam was a fool and was rightfully sacked by Sir John Kerr.

Fool!? He could run rings round you matey. Whether he was a good politician or not, he is recognised as an intellectual powerhouse.
Anyway, fool or not, he was the elected PM and Kerr who represented nobody had no right to sack him. I suppose you're a constitutional lawyer as well.

On the other hand, the GST has meant we all pay substantially less tax. Where the increased tax revenue comes from, isn't through the GST making us pay more, it is through business being unable to dodge tax nowadays.

That still means that we are paying more tax. It may be people who were cheating before who are paying it, but more tax is still being paid.

Take my next door neighbours plumbing business for example, he used ot be able to do cash deals that weren't recorded and claim back 2000-2500 at tax time each year. Now everything has to be accounted for and he pays the correct amount of tax and only receives about 450-1000.

Serious question, how? How does GST stop him from doing cash deals?

 

[TigerTank]

Briedis,

I will never read another John Pilger book again. I consider him an anti-Australian liar, who is attempting to re-write history. When I read Australian history I read Geoffrey Blayney, not Pilger.

Also, I don't think I'd be in the minority on Whitlam, but who can tell? I'm not sure if anyone has done a survey on it.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

How dare you call me an ignorant leftie pies rock - you have absolutely no idea do you ?

Please tell me where it has EVER been ALP policy to place the means of production into the hands of the proletariat and then to mange that process by means of a dictatorship of the proletariat ?

Thats what 'comminism' is pies-rock - or are you one of these twits thats instantly equates anything even vaguely left of centre as 'communism'

With such intellectually feeble analysis, are you sure you haven't flunked your course?

Never mind, always a promising career as a Tabloid Columnist waiting for you down at News Limited.

I'm sure with an attitude like yours, you'll find lotsa kindred spirits down there.

have a nice day - and don't forget to look under your bed before retiring for the evening, careful there isn't a trade unionist hiding there waiting to eat your children.

cheers

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

I think its almost an exact 50-50 split with the people for and against Whitlam.

I think he balls up big time, but Australia wouldn't be such a grouse place as it is today if Whitlam never happened.

cheers

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Pies Rock,

I notice with your union thread you use the words 'they' quite often. It seems to me you have had very little real experience with unions. I am a Union member and proud of it. I have never striked for higher pay, engaged in illegal activity, etc.

I have worked (not studied) but worked in highly unionised areas and in most cases see why they exist. As I posted before I have worked 40 hour shifts without a break (Higher Education Sector)and I have seen FIRST HAND horrific injuries in other areas. Once the Unions were involved these situations were remedied.

Hopefully your politics course will allow you to understand the difference between the ALP and Communism. There is a huge difference and I know a lot of people who would be offended by the comparison given that they escaped from Totalitarian Communist Regimes.

Lastly, I'd be wary of calling someone who has a different opinion as 'ignorant'. As far as I can tell BloodStained Angel has crafted each post with a considered opinion. I'm glad we all have different opinions (it is what a true democracy is all about) but we should respect other points of view when they have been carefully considered and well argued.

 

[Fat Red]

I would recommend anyone with a genuine interest read Whitlam's own book, I think it's called "The Whitlam Government".

It's completely self-serving and arrogant, as you'd expect, BUT

it demonstrates the vision Whitlam had for Australia and the comprehensiveness of his dedication to improving Australian life, from sewers to higher education.

Heavy going in parts, and sometimes you want to throw it away, but an education in what government is about and the value of it.

 

[Pessimistic]

Let me give you an example to discuss, comrades and enrepreneurs.

Recently the government pumpt huge amounts of money to make us all take out PRIVATE MEDICAL INSURANCE.

Lots of us took it up through fear that they would slowly dismantle the public sector and we would be locked out of the system.

But it costs a fortune to use when you go to hospital. We recently were in a maternity hospital which was chock full because of the governent policies. But the rub is that despite the increased income they must surely now be getting they had reduced staffing levels and there were other cutbacks around the place.

If efforts went into the public system it would leave the private system behind. I really resent the government for forcing me to do this.

 

[Rohan Coventry]

Labor voters are moronic fools who want to revisit the "dark old days". A number of shadow ministers are the same people that ran Australia into the ground in the "election we had to have".

I am pretty well versed on the economic side of things as I have a commerce degree. I am also in touch with the small business side as my dad operates one.

Australia has come in leaps and bounds since Howard swept into office. As I have said numerous times, the Government has lowered unemployment, maintained good economic growth and lowered foreign debt.

It is a hell of a lot better than what Labor achieved when they were in government. This despite an Asian crisis and an impeding world recession.

Labor is trying to gain votes by scare tactics and no policies. Someone said no party has ever put their policies on the table before an election, which is wrong. Howard did so before the 1996 election.

They focus on matters that the government has no control on (such as Ansett) and lay blame incorrectly.

The unions are as much to blame as anyone. Sure they look after their member’s interests, but they are a major reason why productivity has fallen in this country.

Fraudulent members who “take off the side” and contribute ineptness run most major unions.

 

[Fat Red]

Originally posted by Rohan Coventry
Labor voters are moronic fools they all think highly of you too Rohan. Play the ball not the man son.

who want to revisit the "dark old days".
Do you actually open your brain before posting? Show me these Labor voters who want to revisit the dark old days. And exactly which days are those anyway?

John Howard wants to revisit the 1950s. Are they the good old days?

A number of shadow ministers are the same people that ran Australia into the ground in the "election we had to have".

Well we did have to have an election. It's the law, one every three years

I am pretty well versed on the economic side of things as I have a commerce degree. I am also in touch with the small business side as my dad operates one.

Australia has come in leaps and bounds since Howard swept into office. As I have said numerous times, the Government has lowered unemployment, maintained good economic growth and lowered foreign debt.

It is a hell of a lot better than what Labor achieved when they were in government. This despite an Asian crisis and an impeding world recession.

This is mostly true. However it's a bit more complex than that. In particular, the fall of the dollar and the loss of big companies shows the weaknesses in our economy. And the employment has virtually all been in low-paying part-time jobs.
And much of the growth is due to global food prices and a good harvest.

Labor is trying to gain votes by scare tactics and no policies.
As against Coalition, which is trying to gain votes by desperately changing all their unpopular policies.


They focus on matters that the government has no control on (such as Ansett) and lay blame incorrectly.

The government did not have 'no' control over Ansett. The failure wasn't their fault, but they could have got involved and made it less of a bumpy landing.

The unions are as much to blame as anyone. Sure they look after their member’s interests, but they are a major reason why productivity has fallen in this country.


Actually, productivity has generally increased.

[/B]

 

[Rohan Coventry]

The exchange rate has been a big problem of the Government. Normally with favorable exchange rates it would attract FDI.

Overseas companies would want to invest heavily into the Australian sector.

This is not the case as the practices of workers and unions have scared off foreign investors.

People may say its bad having too much foreign investment but you only have to look at the example of Ireland to see how FDI can make an economy thrive.

 

[Bee]

Originally posted by Pies rock
. Talk about a Union man, Whitlam was a fool and was rightfully sacked by Sir John Kerr.

.

Rightfully sacked was he Piesrock?
If you are studying politics at uni you would know that the dismissal of the Whitlam Government was actually illegal.
Legal and constitutional advice that has been used for over 100 years has been that the Queen's representative is bound to follow the the advice of the Prime Minister of the day, providing that he held majority support in the House of Representatives.
Whitlam held a clear majority. So the validity of Kerrs actions whether legal or constitutional are highly questionable.

I think that uni course is letting you down. Come talk to me I'll teach you and I promise I'll put my red rag away.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

So Bee,

What do you think of Garfield Barwicks advice to Kerr that 'not only should you dismiss the Government, but you have a duty to do so"

Don't forget Barwick was at the time Cheif Justice of the High Court of Australia and quite possibly the greatest lawyer Australia has ever produced.

Does not his legal opinion count for anything ?

Is it not a central principle of the Westminster system that if a government can't get any money, then they can't govern, then they should be dismissed ?

Just wondering what your take on the whole affair is, thats all.

cheers

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

Geeze i respect the opinions of Joel and TT, even though i disagree with them ...... but PIES ROCK YOU ARE A DISGRACE! I too studied politics at Uni, nowhere in my studies did i learn such codswallop as your espousing, COMMUNISTS...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA , are you sure you studied politics? wasnt playdoh was it? The Labour Party is so far removed from communism it isnt funny... oh by the way who privatised half the Commonwealth Bank? Who deregulized the banking industry? etc etc Maybe you should attend some of your politics lectures rather than skipping them and going to Nortons Pub. As for interest rates under Keating, they did get to 17% which was a disgrace BUT at the time they were voted out of office interest rates were at @ 7% and on there way down, inflation was almost non existent. I could go on but im sure youll just come back at me and call me a commo or leftie or pinkie lolololololololololol. And whats wrong with providing medical assistance through government...is the better system that of the yanks when only the rich can afford treatment? Wake up to yourself open both eyes and them maybe you can contribute to the discussion

 

[Bee]

Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
So Bee,

What do you think of Garfield Barwicks advice to Kerr that 'not only should you dismiss the Government, but you have a duty to do so"

Don't forget Barwick was at the time Cheif Justice of the High Court of Australia and quite possibly the greatest lawyer Australia has ever produced.

Does not his legal opinion count for anything ?

Is it not a central principle of the Westminster system that if a government can't get any money, then they can't govern, then they should be dismissed ?

Just wondering what your take on the whole affair is, thats all.

cheers

Yes, I realise that Barwick was Chief Justice of the High Court at the time. But his legal opinion was apparently wrong. If Whitlam had majority support in the House of Reps, which he did, then Kerr had no right to dismiss him. Maybe, just maybe Barwicks opinion was a little parochial?
Correct, a government cannot govern without money. Which of course was Frasers motive in blocking supply. Grab power anyway you can.
Ironic really isn't it. A man as brilliant as Gough Whitlam brought down by an alcohol soaked representative of a foreign head of state and a megalomaniac millionaire grazier.

 

[Blues_Brat]

Originally posted by Bee
Ironic really isn't it. A man as brilliant as Gough Whitlam brought down by an alcohol soaked representative of a foreign head of state and a megalomaniac millionaire grazier.

.. and some involvment of the CIA.

Gough was not popular with them for blowing the cover of Pine Gap.