federal Libs ahead in polls

[Bloodstained Angel]

The real irony is that Bill Haydens 1975 Federal Budget (the one the Senate blocked) was actually a very conservative and fiscally responsible document !

It got the thumbs up from Treasury, the media - even the then Shadow Treasurer, JOHN HOWARD liked it !

and he telephoned Hayden to congratulate him for a budget that 'would do any Conservative proud'

cheers

 

[Dippers Donuts]

Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
So Bee,

What do you think of Garfield Barwicks advice to Kerr that 'not only should you dismiss the Government, but you have a duty to do so"

Don't forget Barwick was at the time Cheif Justice of the High Court of Australia and quite possibly the greatest lawyer Australia has ever produced.

Does not his legal opinion count for anything ?

Is it not a central principle of the Westminster system that if a government can't get any money, then they can't govern, then they should be dismissed ?

Just wondering what your take on the whole affair is, thats all.

cheers

Garfield Barwick? That paragon of Tory values? He was hardly expected to provide any other advice was he?

It is also simplistic to suggest that if a "goverment can't get any money, then they can't govern, then they should be dismissed".

There were far more murky, complex issues involved.
I could go on for hours about this but to sum up;

1: Kerr, the sneaky bastard, white anted Gough. Gough was ambushed, it is the GG's duty to advise/consult with his PM. Kerr did none of this.
2: The supply bills were not rejected, merely deferred. More time should have been to resolve the issue.
3: Kerr essentially took the GG's recerve powers into new, dangerous territory. He became, essentially, an agent of the conservatives, where his heart always lay.
As for Fraser, Kerr's cur indeed.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

DD

Basically agree with you regarding Barwick, There is at least an impression of bias in that advice he gave to Kerr.

However I think I have to disagree with you on the point of consultation.

The GG is under absolutely no obligation to consult with anybody. The Constitution is quite clear on this. The government is the Govenor General, not the party with the numbers on the floor of the Lower House. The Prime Minister, The Cabinet, indeed the entire Parliament holds office purely at the pleasure of the GG. The GG can do what he likes in this regard. If he feels justified in sacking the Government, he can, and he doesn't have to talk with anybody about it - not even Buckingham Palace.

Kerr DID shaft Whitlam, he didn't talk to anybody about what he was going to do, instead he ran off to Barwick and got a hopelessly biased opinion that said he had a duty to dismiss the government.

Kerr also consulted with the palace, I understand that QE2 was not happy Jan after she found out what was going on - didn't stop Kerr though, who by then had made his mind up to sack the government.

So, in a nutshell, the Constitution clearly says that the GG is da man with all the power, the government holds office entirely at his pleasure, the GG does not have to consult with anybody regarding a decision to sack the government. Kerr consulted with the Queen, he also asked Barwick to write a legal opinion.

But he din't tell Whitlam what he was up to. Although he didn't have to, he should have and this is his critical error that will forever damn the guy in Australian politics.

Cripes ! I could go on about November 75 for ever, somebody please stop me !

cheers

 

[Bee]

Ummm actually you could argue that the GG did consult on the matter. He made a phone call to Fraser at around 10.00 on the morning of November 11 and asked him, if he was commissioned as caretaker PM would he guarantee supply. Mal said yes!
At that stage Kerr had not advised or warned Whitlam of his intentions.

 

[Dippers Donuts]

Bloodstained,

Have to disagree with you regarding the issue of consultation.

The Governor-General's decision not to warn and/or advise the Prime Minister before dismissing him was a serious breach of his constitutional duty. This is a long standing convention which Kerr, for the reasons self interest, ignored.

The Governor-General's decision to exercise the queen's powers without and/or contrary to the advice of a Prime Minister who had the confidence of the House of Representatives was a breach of the constitutional convention that the monarch and her representative should only exercise those powers in accordance with this advice from the PM.

Kerr duty was to advise and warn his Prime Minister before dismissing him; again he failed palpably to do this.

I also ask this, what if Fraser had been unable to secure supply once he was appointed (as was possible as Labor had the majority in the House of Reps)?

What then, Fraser would have had to have been dismissed and Whitlam reappointed!! Farcical.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

DD

It might have been a 'convention' but according to the Constitution the GG does not have to consult with anybody.

I agree with you in that Kerr ignored all these conventions, and was a complete goose for doing so.

But if you read the Constitution, its quite clear :

No consultation is needed, the Government is there solely and purely at the pleasure of the GG, he can do what ever he likes in this respect, he can sack the government whenever he likes, without telling a soul.

In fact such are the huge reserve powers of the GG, he can sack the government without even a good reason for doing so.

Convention is very important, sure, its 'convention' that has stopped successive GGs from being dictators. But 'convention' remains just convention, not law.

Kerr decided to ignore convention, and is rightly condemned for doing so, BUT I have to say, he was perfectly within his rights for doing so.

Thank god successive GGs have had the good sense to ignore Kerrs precedent.

cheers

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

OK Guys so CHOGM has now been officially cancelled , we should be heading to an 1st or 2nd week of November ........ Little Johnny has everything going for him at the moment ..... lets hope its another case of upset in an unloseable election

 

[TheMase]

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS
OK Guys so CHOGM has now been officially cancelled , we should be heading to an 1st or 2nd week of November ........ Little Johnny has everything going for him at the moment ..... lets hope its another case of upset in an unloseable election

Now thats just typical isnt it!

I turn 18 on Sunday 4th November.... !

 

[Dippers Donuts]

Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
DD

It might have been a 'convention' but according to the Constitution the GG does not have to consult with anybody.

I agree with you in that Kerr ignored all these conventions, and was a complete goose for doing so.

But if you read the Constitution, its quite clear :

No consultation is needed, the Government is there solely and purely at the pleasure of the GG, he can do what ever he likes in this respect, he can sack the government whenever he likes, without telling a soul.

In fact such are the huge reserve powers of the GG, he can sack the government without even a good reason for doing so.

Convention is very important, sure, its 'convention' that has stopped successive GGs from being dictators. But 'convention' remains just convention, not law.

Kerr decided to ignore convention, and is rightly condemned for doing so, BUT I have to say, he was perfectly within his rights for doing so.

Thank god successive GGs have had the good sense to ignore Kerrs precedent.

cheers

Again Bloodstained, will have to disagree there;

The constitution clearly states;
"In Australia, the Crown is represented by the Governor-General who exercises the executive power of government in the Monarch's place. In Australia, the Governor-General also complies with the principle of responsible government. References to the Crown in the following also apply to the Governor-General. " s61.

The key point/issue/term is responsible government. This is codified in the constitution. Whilst it is a grey area it clearly states that the GG must act in accordance with the PM's wishes and advice.

Again Kerr didn't and defied the constitution as it is written.

Gotta go now (corporate lunch! Woohoo!). Thanks for the debate, been fun.
Will post later if capable!

 

[Joel]

Originally posted by Bloodstained Angel
a vote for the ALP is a vote for communism is it pies rock ?

get real mate - its 2001, not 1917 for chrissake !

I live very close to Paul Keating here in Sydney - oh yeah he's a commie alright, lives in a mansion in Woolahra called St Kevins.

Oh yeah and he nearly ran me over the other day - in his Bentley.

Hey at least the Bentley was red - is that what you mean by ALP Communists ?

You say you know politics - what is your definition of communism may i ask ?

oh and please tell me where I can see that the ALP will nationalise industries, nationalise the banks, abolish private wealth and private property, force the population into collective communes, etc etc

Do you honestly think the ALP has an agenda to throw out our current system of government and replace it with a Dictatorship of the Proleteriat ?

are you sure you really know what you are talking about - or did you just want to have a rant at all those Dangerous Trotskites in the ALP - lol

cheers

BA - Not having a go at you but, you only picked out one argument and tried to take it to pieces, why not the others?

 

[Fat Red]

Mase, if you're 17 you can register to vote now.

if the election is called for after your 18th birthday, you will be able to vote. If not, of course, you won't.

But if you don't register now, before you turn 18, they close the rolls a couple of weeks before the election.

So get on it if you want to have a say.

cheers

 

[Joel]

Originally posted by Fat Red
I would recommend anyone with a genuine interest read Whitlam's own book, I think it's called "The Whitlam Government".

It's completely self-serving and arrogant, as you'd expect, BUT

it demonstrates the vision Whitlam had for Australia and the comprehensiveness of his dedication to improving Australian life, from sewers to higher education.

Heavy going in parts, and sometimes you want to throw it away, but an education in what government is about and the value of it.

Propaganda?

 

[Fat Red]

Yes it's propaganda, but if you read it with an open mind it shows that unlike today's ALP, he actually had policies.

 

[Joel]

Originally posted by Fat Red
Yes it's propaganda, but if you read it with an open mind it shows that unlike today's ALP, he actually had policies.

Okay!

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

yeah, ok Joel

It might have only been one point - but I feel it was the central point to his whole arguement.

I think he was trying to say somehow the ALP were communists.

Ok, sure - they are the political wing of the Trade Union Movement, they are (nominally at least I guess ?) the main party that is to the left of the political spectrum, hey they even call each other 'comrade'

But to suggest the Australian Labvor Party are 'communists' is plainly ludicrous and I might add, its also insulting to a number of BigFooty people who have personal experience of what it is like to live in a Communist system.

Do you think the ALP are a bunch of commies Joel ?

cheers

 

[TheMase]

Originally posted by Fat Red
Mase, if you're 17 you can register to vote now.

if the election is called for after your 18th birthday, you will be able to vote. If not, of course, you won't.

But if you don't register now, before you turn 18, they close the rolls a couple of weeks before the election.

So get on it if you want to have a say.

cheers

Hehe .. Yeah I realise this, thanks!

 

[Joel]

BA - No I don't think the ALP are a bunch of commies, well 99.98% aren't anyway. I believe most of the ALP is very distant from what you would call communists.

I just can't stand the union connection.

Also, regarding Pies Rock's post; PR was right that it was not the government's fault that Ansett collpased, you can get throught the GST if you can manager you business effectively, and the ALP have had a past of economic mismanagement.

 

[BUBBALOUIS]

Originally posted by Joel
BA - No I don't think the ALP are a bunch of commies, well 99.98% aren't anyway. I believe most of the ALP is very distant from what you would call communists.

I just can't stand the union connection.

Joel without the Union connection the ALP would have no avenue for funding, the coalition are well looked after by the big end of town who throw some crumbs towards the ALP ..... if the Union funding ceased we would have a situation where the Liberals would have an enormous election 'war chest' to use on advertising etc etc and there would be no opposition at all...is that good for the electorate? The conservatives already have the murdoch press stitched up.....I want to see good Government, but i also want a strong opposition...cheers

 

[Joel]

Originally posted by BUBBALOUIS



Joel without the Union connection the ALP would have no avenue for funding, the coalition are well looked after by the big end of town who throw some crumbs towards the ALP ..... if the Union funding ceased we would have a situation where the Liberals would have an enormous election 'war chest' to use on advertising etc etc and there would be no opposition at all...is that good for the electorate? The conservatives already have the murdoch press stitched up.....I want to see good Government, but i also want a strong opposition...cheers

Bubbalouis - I know that, but I still don't like it.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

yeah fair enough Joel

To respond to those other points of Piesrock that you mentioned

Ansett

Transport Minister Anderson has to wear some blame (but he is not solely responsible) It was his decision to permit the sale of Ansett to AirNZ instead of Singapore Airlines. Noe he might say that he was mislead as to the financial position of AirNZ, but even a modicum of due diligence would have found out that AirNz's talk of having a billion dollars in reserve was bull*****.

The GST

Tax reform we had to have, and I applaud this Governemnt for at least having the guts to go where the ALP was too scared to in 85. But implementation and compliance has been badly bungled. One of the key advantages of a GST (or so we were told) is that will halve paperwork for small businesses. Instead its quadrupled, surely a big balls up if ever there was one. The GST is also a highly regressive tax in that it really slugs poor people. Finding an extra 10 percent for goods and services is no big deal for a rich guy, or even a comfortably well off guy, but for a poor guy its a disaster, and I worry about that.

Also the 'deal' with the Democrats to exempt otems of food was misguided and stupid. A broadly based consumption tax MUST be broadly based, otherwise it won't work properly. Far better to have included food but boost compensation for poorer people who will be slugged badly by this.

The ALP policy of 'rollback' is also stupid and dumb in the extreme, and I wonder why they are so quiet about rollback these days ?

Past ALP economic mis-management

Well its hard to argue with the bald facts - ALP ran deficit budgets for most of the time it was in government, Coalition has had supluses 4 out of the 5 years they've been in government. However, the ALP had to battle through 2 huge recessions and the economy was rapidly recovering by the time the Coalition got in in 96. So Howard has had a very fortunate and lucky run with the economy so far. I would be very interested to see how their economic credentials stack up in the rather uncertain future.

Don't get me wrong - Pies rock had a few useful points to make, but he blew all his credibility out the water when he starting ranting on at these darstadley Trotskites lurking in the Labor Party !

sheesh, I had to say something !

cheers