Society/Culture Feminism part 1 - continued in part 2

[romeoh]

I have no idea what show you were discussing, or what this point was on about.



Where is your research? I'll read that and enlighten myself.




"Try to install a guilty until proven innocent approach for one of the most muddled, hard to decide crimes."
The guilty until proven innocent approach last happened in early December, and some colleges in the USA are trying to make rules that literally say that men are guilty until proven innocent, and they have the burden of proof.

"Starting campaigns to stop men taking too much space on public transport."
This was a couple of days ago, and has got a ton of support. So obscure. So extremist.

"Getting pissed off some scientist wore a shirt."
How long ago was this, a month? Feminists bullied this guy who has just had a remarkable scientific achievement, into a sobbing apology on live TV. His apology was then criticised for 'not showing he understood what was wrong with the shirt'. Even though his female friend made the shirt for him.

"Getting up in arms you can kill female NPC's in GTA."
Once again, a month or so ago, so obscure. A petition that got 50k+ signatures because hookers can be killed in the game. As can any other character in the game.

"Find a stripper in a game, randomly kill them with no incentive, record it and then say that female NPC's are just things to murder or something."
Maybe 6 months ago I reckon.

"Feminists find male abuse hilarious."
This was more a general point, but it is completely true, and evidence of this always seems to crop up every couple of weeks. If you dispute this, let me know and I'll and find examples.

The examples you give are really obscure, extreme and uncommon. Obscure? No, these were quite easy to find. Uncommon? It was pretty easy for me to find these recent examples. Doesn't make it seem that uncommon. Extreme? All of the things I mentioned that are issues have a heap of support, so there must be many extreme feminists.

I equate these actions, thoughts, behaviours to feminists because of the amount of support they get from feminists.

My antiquated views? Please, point them out and I'll address them. You can't simply disagree with your side of the argument without being put down can you.

Yep -the college law re guilty until innocent is stupid and unfair. It presumably emerged in response to the high rate of rapes on campus that can't be proven for numerous reasons. But it isn't the way to go.
All your other points, sorry, seem to me pretty uncommon despite your efforts ( which I appreciate) and again tied to specific groups-hardly can be put at the door of all 'feminists'. The train stuff- seriously?-give me a break-nutjob stuff that won't attract much support. The shirt-he has poor taste on a number of levels and really people need to understand appropriate dress in a professional job, but I doubt many people gave a real stuff. The game stuff is interesting because I do recognize there is an issue with the amount of violence directed at women on a number of those sites, so think its worth considering and it might need addressing in some way.
Your statement re 'feminists find male abuse hilarious' again u cannot be cereal. A few nutters do not a summer make. You can't ship all these weirdo ideas, fringe groups and so forth onto 'the feminist movement'. Do you think the same as your mates? Nope-there is great diversity in thinking. Why give a bunch of idiots so much time-why not dismiss them for their unfair and loopy ideas. Or come back to me when the law is passed banning men from taking up too much space on trains. Or when a scientist can't wear the shirt he wants to wear.

 

[AngryRanga]

Your statement re 'feminists find male abuse hilarious' again u cannot be cereal. A few nutters do not a summer make. You can't ship all these weirdo ideas, fringe groups and so forth onto 'the feminist movement'.

Yeah, you've got a point there. That isn't an accurate generalisation of feminism. Neither is the thing about men on trains (looking back, a lot of 'support' isn't serious) and the rape law (I assume most people with some logic realise that doesn't work).

The rest of them though, do represent at least a portion of feminism, as shown by having significant backing by feminists. I think that's a pretty fair statement to make.


Can you show me towards research on domestic violence rising in Australia?

 

[romeoh]

Yeah, you've got a point there. That isn't an accurate generalisation of feminism. Neither is the thing about men on trains (looking back, a lot of 'support' isn't serious) and the rape law (I assume most people with some logic realise that doesn't work).

The rest of them though, do represent at least a portion of feminism, as shown by having significant backing by feminists. I think that's a pretty fair statement to make.


Can you show me towards research on domestic violence rising in Australia?

Here are a couple of media links that highlight some of the increases but there is a comprehensive, official link I have seen before that I will try and find.
http://theconversation.com/out-of-the-shadows-the-rise-of-domestic-violence-in-australia-29280
http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-...mily-violence-in-victoria-20140326-35in9.html
http://www.dvvic.org.au/index.php/understanding-family-violence/key-statistics.html
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/d...igher-victoria-police-say-20130828-2sp9n.html

 

[Grin]

Lol. Now you're embarrassing yourself.

How many kids did you raise?

You've got real issues with women.
You're either a virgin, or a product of a failed relationship where your partner refused to be your mother.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Why did feminism emerge as a movement?

That's why anyone who is informed knows there is no feminist movement; there are movements.

Liberal, socialist, sexual, political, personal, Western-oriented, developing world-oriented.

If you inform yourself, you'll see many feminist movements have looked to the plight of women and girls in the developing world, and working class women in the developed world.

Do feminist movements exist or don't they?

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

How many kids did you raise?

You've got real issues with women.
You're either a virgin, or a product of a failed relationship where your partner refused to be your mother.

Lol wat?

Explain to me how mothering is "hard labor". It can be draining and stressful, but it's not hard labor. The point that was made was that the woman staying at home and performing household and motherly duties wasn't really oppression when the man had to go and do hard physical work all day, away from his family.

 

[Lester Burnham]

Here are a couple of media links that highlight some of the increases but there is a comprehensive, official link I have seen before that I will try and find.
http://theconversation.com/out-of-the-shadows-the-rise-of-domestic-violence-in-australia-29280
http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-...mily-violence-in-victoria-20140326-35in9.html
http://www.dvvic.org.au/index.php/understanding-family-violence/key-statistics.html
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/d...igher-victoria-police-say-20130828-2sp9n.html

Has the level of offences gone up or just the reporting?

Police have consistently said they expected the number of reported family violence offences, which leapt 23 per cent to 51,000 in the 2011-12 financial year, to plateau by 2015 as the level of offending matched the rate of reporting. Mr Lay said he was no longer sure that would happen and predicted about 64,000 such offences would be recorded this financial year.

The state government amended the Family Violence Act 2008 last year to create several new offences and harsher penalties.

Despite rising family violence reporting driving up overall crime figures, women were far safer than in the past, he said.​

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-chief-warns-on-rising-cases-20130421-2i8f8.html

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Do feminist movements exist or don't they?

Feminist movements, yes.

Movement, no.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Lol wat?

Explain to me how mothering is "hard labor". It can be draining and stressful, but it's not hard labor. The point that was made was that the woman staying at home and performing household and motherly duties wasn't really oppression when the man had to go and do hard physical work all day, away from his family.

You can answer this when you get some more life experience.

 

[kfc1]

Was interesting to hear DV being discussed with the police on ABC Newsradio this evening - yhe female presenter/reporter was quite forward in asking leading questions and insisting that the female was the victim automatically, whereas the cop made it quite clear that often they are not the victim and the police's priority is for the safety of all involved, not just the women. Was quite a strange report as she kept focusing on women and children being the only victims of DV despite most responses from the cop saying the complete opposite lol

 

[cartwright]

Was interesting to hear DV being discussed with the police on ABC Newsradio this evening - yhe female presenter/reporter was quite forward in asking leading questions and insisting that the female was the victim automatically, whereas the cop made it quite clear that often they are not the victim and the police's priority is for the safety of all involved, not just the women. Was quite a strange report as she kept focusing on women and children being the only victims of DV despite most responses from the cop saying the complete opposite lol

I'm utterly shocked a media outlet was angling for a story
Doesn't that assure you, that the people who should know this, do
Doesn't that assure you that police are aware all can be victims.....
& yet the numbers are still skewed to women being victims.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Motherhood is a hard labor job for 24 hours a day. And its unpaid. Don't be an idiot.

The freedom and agency afforded from being able to work and earn money and control and decisions etc can't be compared to being shackled to a stove.

This argument is little more than trolling.

I don't think you quite understand the concept of what marriage was back then. Divorce was very hard to come by and any income earned by the man was in the family name. By law, men were required to provide for their wives no matter what. It is a fallacy that just because men were the providers that they had all of this power that they could abuse over a woman. The law prevented this.

If a separation took place between a man and a woman, the man still had to provide for the woman and pay taxation for any property owned by the woman. Men who couldn't pay taxation for the owned properties of the woman were imprisoned. Women could take off and refuse to come home, leaving the man to pay the expenses of a woman living the single life, with no hope of divorce.

Also, when the tender years doctrine was legislated, women were given custody of the children by default and men were still required to be the sole providers for the children.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Do feminist movements exist or don't they?

I think that's where a hell of a lot of the conflict exists in this thread and more broadly with feminism and it centers on people talking past each other on the back of different interpretations of what Feminism is.

So many people seem to hold what i'd call weak Feminist position (broad meaning), that Feminism is the pursuit of equality between the sexes and nothing more. The realities is however that equality is a relativistic term, each individual will place different levels of important on sex and gender. Which is where Feminism fractures, across generational and ideological lines.

Difference or Equaity Feminism - Believes that the genders are essentially different and that each gender posses particular traits, which might not necessarily be exclusive but are generally stronger in one gender than the other. These can obviously be

Gender Feminism - Doesn't believe in any gender roles, reject much of sexual dimorphism and psychological differences between the sexes and espouses something similar to the concept of tabula-rasa.

As Kidd Vicious states Feminist movements exist rather than a singular movement, but i don't really think this supports Feminism in any way. Equality is a set of shifting goal posts defined by ones own sensibilities. Feminism as a term is inadequate and represents a range of contradictory and incoherent positions.

The issue Gender Feminism has is that it's politically the most radical, politically as the most exponents within academic and intellectual circles and equally has the most opposition. It attacks the notion of equality not from a position of economic and social opportunities on an individual basis, but instead interprets it on the back of social and economic outcomes. I'm disinclined to believe the two can exist at the same time.

 

[cartwright]

I don't think you quite understand the concept of what marriage was back then. Divorce was very hard to come by and any income earned by the man was in the family name. By law, men were required to provide for their wives no matter what. It is a fallacy that just because men were the providers that they had all of this power that they could abuse over a woman. The law prevented this.

If a separation took place between a man and a woman, the man still had to provide for the woman and pay taxation for any property owned by the woman. Men who couldn't pay taxation for the owned properties of the woman were imprisoned. Women could take off and refuse to come home, leaving the man to pay the expenses of a woman living the single life, with no hope of divorce.

Also, when the tender years doctrine was legislated, women were given custody of the children by default and men were still required to be the sole providers for the children.

when is "back then"
You mentioned the tender years doctrine, so you're what, going back to 1840's?! lol

 

[Raz0r6ack]

when is "back then"
You mentioned the tender years doctrine, so you're what, going back to 1840's?! lol

Women haven't always been housewives "shackled to stoves", cartwright. In the middle ages, women had to work just as hard as men to survive, they ran their own businesses and owned property. Kitchen compliance's were invented by men so that women could adopt the role of being a housewife instead of being apart of the struggling working class.

 

[Santana]

It's about much more. And of course, there are many definitions of equal.

Yes there are, there is the feminist view of equal which is only when it happens to suit their sex and then then there's the normal person's view which is with true equality you have to look at both sides and take the good with the bad sometimes.

It isn't?

If you're a man who actually believes true equality and by that I mean from both sides of the coin, then no, feminism is not for you.

And as for feminist men, since they're all made up of white knight, mommy boys who's balls haven't dropped yet, I would hardly call them men.

Huh?

Please don't play stupid. We've been told for ages from more feminists then I would like to remember that we didn't need to worry about male issues and that we didn't need things like male right groups because the feminists were already working on those issues. Were we being told a lie?

 

[scon]

Kitchen compliance's were invented by men so that women could adopt the role of being a housewife instead of being apart of the struggling working class.

Simply golden!!

 

[little graham]

Saw something quite disgusting on the weekend. Australian feminists using Israel as an example on how to deal with domestic violence. Israel probably oppresses women harsher than any other country. For instance.they still have segregation on some public transport.obscure kerfews on females, even laws where they can't pick thier nose.

Then there's gaza and jewish settlements in the occupied lands where women and children are evicted from their ancestral home by the army to house Jewish immigarnts.

 

[cartwright]

Simply golden!!

LOL !!!!!!

 

[CLUBMEDhurst]

And as for feminist men, since they're all made up of white knight, mommy boys who's balls haven't dropped yet, I would hardly call them men.

As opposed to those hard as nails Men's Rights tough guys that complain of male oppression? Reckon I could beat them on my own with my hand tied behind my back. ****in' pussies of the highest order

 

[Danny Cullen]

Saw something quite disgusting on the weekend. Australian feminists using Israel as an example on how to deal with domestic violence. Israel probably oppresses women harsher than any other country. For instance.they still have segregation on some public transport.obscure kerfews on females, even laws where they can't pick thier nose.

Then there's gaza and jewish settlements in the occupied lands where women and children are evicted from their ancestral home by the army to house Jewish immigarnts.

You made this up.

http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/international/Ten-Worst-Countries-for-Women.html

In the Middle-East:

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4336/desperate_oppression_of_women_continues_in_mideast

You can dislike Israel all you like, but don't make stuff up.

 

[scon]

As opposed to those hard as nails Men's Rights tough guys that complain of male oppression? Reckon I could beat them on my own with my hand tied behind my back. ****in' pricks of the lowest order

Alternately.

 

[Engimal]

As opposed to those hard as nails Men's Rights tough guys that complain of male oppression? Reckon I could beat them on my own with my hand tied behind my back. ****in' pussies of the highest order

Why? Is it so awful to advocate for the rights of men, despite the privilege we may have?

That's like we can't campaign to end poverty in Australia because kids are in worse poverty in Africa.

 

[telsor]

Why? Is it so awful to advocate for the rights of men, despite the privilege we may have?

That's like we can't campaign to end poverty in Australia because kids are in worse poverty in Africa.

Exactly.

I always go by the 80:20 theory. If 80% of the gender inequities favor men, 20% favor women, then why not devote 20% of the effort to dealing with the inequities that favor women? It doesn't deny that women have it worse, but it shows that the goal is equality, and by making a point of doing so reduces the potential for an 'us Vs them' attitude, making the 80% easier to deal with as well.

 

[Santana]

As opposed to those hard as nails Men's Rights tough guys that complain of male oppression? Reckon I could beat them on my own with my hand tied behind my back. ****in' pussies of the highest order

When you compare them to the mommy boys who are so desperate for female attention they'll say and do just about anything then I reckon the Men's Rights folks would still have them covered.