Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[clogwearer]

Why regardless of my feelings? Surely the feelings of both parties matter

When people want to be referred to as non he/she pronouns that is a bridge too far for me and goes beyond common courtesy. So long as people aren't purposely going against it to be malicious you shouldn't have to go against your own feelings to indulge someone like they are a 5yo

You are allowed to refuse to extend basic courtesy to another person if it hurts your feelings. Like a 5yo.

TBH - and I don't know if you're aware of how it sounds, but it does sound to me a lot like many arguments I've heard recently where people resist other basic courtesies and rights recognitions of minority groups because - to paraphrase - "I have recently realised that I am offended by the basic right that you've been fighting your whole life to achieve and my feelings matter too." It doesn't actually hurt you to extend this courtesy, but your refusal (whether you intend it to or not) echoes years of bigotry and prejudice.

I don't know what the current state of the thread is like, but as I read through it there were numerous examples of people "purposely going against it to be malicious". And numerous further examples of people displaying wilful ignorance, which is still - in my opinion - not cool.

 

[clogwearer]

46 pages after 2 days? Come on people, finals time! This is such a non issue, although good to see some people showing increased interest in the AFLW.

46 pages after 2 days suggests that for more than a few people, it's an issue. Reading through those 46 pages provides many opportunities for education and for understanding the differing viewpoints surrounding that issue.

 

[chiwigi]

Why regardless of my feelings? Surely the feelings of both parties matter

When people want to be referred to as non he/she pronouns that is a bridge too far for me and goes beyond common courtesy. So long as people aren't purposely going against it to be malicious you shouldn't have to go against your own feelings to indulge someone like they are a 5yo

No, they really don't. That's like me saying I feel like referring to you as only silly fellow, it is intentionally offensive, not matter the veracity.

 

[Jugada]

No, they really don't. That's like me saying I feel like referring to you as only silly fellow, it is intentionally offensive, not matter the veracity.

What?

 

[Stefan_Carey]

46 pages after 2 days? Come on people, finals time! This is such a non issue, although good to see some people showing increased interest in the AFLW.

It only took a man joining the sport to spark interest. AFL:Whatever. Imagine being the women that fought hard to be taken seriously, got their league and after 1 season its been made a complete farce.

Also if it isn't transparent enough, of course this would be introduced during finals time it limits the discussion until he seriously injures some poor women.

 

[Roobs321]

46 pages after 2 days suggests that for more than a few people, it's an issue. Reading through those 46 pages provides many opportunities for education and for understanding the differing viewpoints surrounding that issue.

Fair enough, but I feel like these issues have already been discussed educatively at great length in numerous other threads over the last several years on this forum. I'd be surprised if this new behemoth had contributed anything new to the discussion.

 

[Fadge]

If I had a PhD and someone referred to me as 'Mr' and not 'Dr', should I be offended?

 

[Roobs321]

It only took a man joining the sport to spark interest. AFL:Whatever. Imagine being the women that fought hard to be taken seriously, got their league and after 1 season its been made a complete farce.

Also if it isn't transparent enough, of course this would be introduced during finals time it limits the discussion until he seriously injures some poor women.

I don't really understand how a potential first transgender player in the AFLW (or whatever you dismiss it as being) renders it a farce. She might injure some opponents, and be injured herself in turn, that's the nature of competitive contact sport football.

By all means, continue posting passionately in a thread about a league you call irrelevant and a farce. Tell those poor women how their league should be run.

 

[Stefan_Carey]

I don't really understand how a potential first transgender player in the AFLW (or whatever you dismiss it as being) renders it a farce. She might injure some opponents, and be injured herself in turn, that's the nature of competitive contact sport football.

The article says she's kicked 15 goals in 3 games in the "AFLW Canberra". 5 goals is almost the entire score line of some of these sides. I hope it becomes a specialist position in AFLW - the ruckman. Don't get a ruckwomen to do a ruckmans job . Farcical.

 

[Jugada]

You are allowed to refuse to extend basic courtesy to another person if it hurts your feelings. Like a 5yo.

TBH - and I don't know if you're aware of how it sounds, but it does sound to me a lot like many arguments I've heard recently where people resist other basic courtesies and rights recognitions of minority groups because - to paraphrase - "I have recently realised that I am offended by the basic right that you've been fighting your whole life to achieve and my feelings matter too." It doesn't actually hurt you to extend this courtesy, but your refusal (whether you intend it to or not) echoes years of bigotry and prejudice.

I don't know what the current state of the thread is like, but as I read through it there were numerous examples of people "purposely going against it to be malicious". And numerous further examples of people displaying wilful ignorance, which is still - in my opinion - not cool.

That's not a basic courtesy and just because you recognise yourself one way doesn't make it so or mean that everyone else also has to recognise you that way.

No one is taking away rights. Someone not pretending that they agree with you doesn't take away any rights you have.

Bigotry? Please. Me refusing to refer to you as some made up pronoun based on something that isn't true is not bigotry. Im not ruddy Jesus going around just saying bullshit so no ones feelings ever get hurt, a sense of reality has to kick in at some stage.

 

[Roobs321]

The article says she's kicked 15 goals in 3 games in the "AFLW Canberra". 5 goals is almost the entire score line of some of these sides. I hope it becomes a specialist position in AFLW - the ruckman. Don't get a ruckwomen to do a ruckmans job . Farcical.

How charming...

Hannah kicked 17 goals in 8 games (about 2 goals a game, and well behind the club leading goalkicker), including a bag of 5 in a game where her team scored 94 points, and a 190cm person in mens or womens would often make a good ruck option.

 

[threesixpio]

One last post on this issue.

The science around sex and gender is actually more complex than people think. There is a large amount of variation and many people don't necessarily fit into sex categories that easily. Read more here:

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

That said, most can fit into categories of "male" and "female" but the definition is not as straight forward, particularly for those who are XXX females or XYY males who are actually way more common than you think. There are even people who are anatomically male but chromosomally female.

What the hell has this got to do with a Transwoman? I suppose what I would argue is that putting aside people changing gender that sports need to make a call on people having a gender due to the variations I'm talking about above which are naturally occurring.

This means that the definition of male and female may need to be a little more sophisticated/detailed/complicated than otherwise people would think.

This more detailed definition of male and female may be wide enough to include Transwomen if we accept that the physiology of a Transwoman on HRT is substantially altered.

Anyway - that's all I got for this thread.

 

[Stefan_Carey]

How charming...

Hannah kicked 17 goals in 8 games (about 2 goals a game, and well behind the club leading goalkicker), including a bag of 5 in a game where her team scored 94 points, and a 190cm person in mens or womens would often make a good ruck option.

Hey, I'm not the article that framed it as "15 goals in 3 games" but do ruckmen in AFLW generally average 2 goals a game? From what I saw of the televised comp you'd be ecstatic if your full forward was averaging 2 goals a game.

How many did Fredrick Traub kick last year, she's a high profile ruckman right?

I can't wait to see him grab the ball out of the ruck, break someones collarbone charging through tacklers and kicking 50 meter goals

 

[MightyTiger]

How charming...

Hannah kicked 17 goals in 8 games (about 2 goals a game, and well behind the club leading goalkicker), including a bag of 5 in a game where her team scored 94 points, and a 190cm person in mens or womens would often make a good ruck option.

How many games had the leading goalkicking played for the year compared to Hannah?

 

[Smurftown#11]

How many games had the leading goalkicking played for the year compared to Hannah?

The leading goal kicker for the team kicked 29 goals in 13 games (ave 2.23), Hannah kicked 17 in 8 games (ave 2.125).

For comparison, the two leading goal kickers in the competition kicked 66 & 63 goals respectively, both from 15 games, so an average of over 4 goals per game.

Hardly seems like she was unfairly dominating the competition, though undoubtedly she was a good player relative to some.

 

[Stefan_Carey]

The leading goal kicker for the team kicked 29 goals in 13 games (ave 2.23), Hannah kicked 17 in 8 games (ave 2.125).

For comparison, the two leading goal kickers in the competition kicked 66 & 63 goals respectively, both from 15 games, so an average of over 4 goals per game.

Hardly seems like she was unfairly dominating the competition, though undoubtedly she was a good player relative to some.

Oh cool, were they both ruckmen or does one of them play forward?

Thanks for the context though with the comp leading goal kickers, so they play on a bad team? Kind of makes his goal average even more impressive, wait til he gets to a good team.

They should also scrap the State of Origin and replace it with the Identity of Gender - have a trans team vs a womens team, I bet it'll be an even bigger blowout than Vic vs Allies.

 

[MightyTiger]

The leading goal kicker for the team kicked 29 goals in 13 games (ave 2.23), Hannah kicked 17 in 8 games (ave 2.125).

For comparison, the two leading goal kickers in the competition kicked 66 & 63 goals respectively, both from 15 games, so an average of over 4 goals per game.

Hardly seems like she was unfairly dominating the competition, though undoubtedly she was a good player relative to some.

Thank you for those stats, and would I be wrong in saying that Hannah predominantly as a ruck for the year?

 

[MightyTiger]

Oh cool, were they both ruckmen or does one of them play forward?

Thanks for the context though with the comp leading goal kickers, so they play on a bad team? Kind of makes his goal average even more impressive, wait til he gets to a good team.

They should also scrap the State of Origin and replace it with the Identity of Gender - have a trans team vs a womens team, I bet it'll be an even bigger blowout than Vic vs Allies.

Trans v LGBT exhibition match.

 

[Stefan_Carey]

Trans v LGBT exhibition match.

They missed a trick on that exhibition match, they had the 9 pointers listed as 9 on the scorecard, i.e. 9 G B T. Should of called them long goals.

 

[Gypsy King]

If I had a PhD and someone referred to me as 'Mr' and not 'Dr', should I be offended?

Most individuals I have met who have completed their PhD insist I call them Dr. I have always found that odd, like they have some sort of superiority complex.

 

[Smurftown#11]

Thank you for those stats, and would I be wrong in saying that Hannah predominantly as a ruck for the year?

The games I watched, Hannah mainly played at full-forward, as the changing ruck, rather than as an out and out ruck. Frankly didn't have the tank to play up the ground for any length of time. It was the leading goal-kicker that played a more CHF role.

As to the poster that said the team was rubbish, they finished the regular season 5th out of 11 teams and lost an elimination final in overtime to the eventual premiers, so it wasn't like Fev years ago kicking all the goals for Carlton when they finished at the bottom of the ladder

 

[clogwearer]

Fair enough, but I feel like these issues have already been discussed educatively at great length in numerous other threads over the last several years on this forum. I'd be surprised if this new behemoth had contributed anything new to the discussion.

That may be. I don't venture onto the main board all that often. I've found it enlightening in part because of the extensive participation of the op, a trans woman playing football in Victoria.

That's not a basic courtesy and just because you recognise yourself one way doesn't make it so or mean that everyone else also has to recognise you that way.

No one is taking away rights. Someone not pretending that they agree with you doesn't take away any rights you have.

Bigotry? Please. Me refusing to refer to you as some made up pronoun based on something that isn't true is not bigotry. Im not ruddy Jesus going around just saying bullshit so no ones feelings ever get hurt, a sense of reality has to kick in at some stage.

That is actually a basic courtesy. Listening to people, understanding what's important to them, and treating them fairly in accordance - including using the pronouns you know they prefer to have used, and are legally recognised to be entitled to, is a basic courtesy. If you can't bring yourself to use the pronoun of that person's choice, the next basic level of courtesy is to say "that person" or "they" rather than deliberately (and provocatively in many cases) using a pronoun you know they don't like. Which falls easily inside the category of intolerance (the inability or unwillingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with) towards those who hold different opinions from oneself - the very definition of bigotry.

 

[Stefan_Carey]

If I had a PhD and someone referred to me as 'Mr' and not 'Dr', should I be offended?

Well yeah because you're a real doctor, if you were given an honourary doctorate though you're probably asking too much and I think it's fairly reasonable for people to continue referring to you as they always have

The games I watched, Hannah mainly played at full-forward, as the changing ruck, rather than as an out and out ruck. Frankly didn't have the tank to play up the ground for any length of time. It was the leading goal-kicker that played a more CHF role.

As to the poster that said the team was rubbish, they finished the regular season 5th out of 11 teams and lost an elimination final in overtime to the eventual premiers, so it wasn't like Fev years ago kicking all the goals for Carlton when they finished at the bottom of the ladder

So more like Essendon where they used dangerous science to secure mediocre results then?

I mean is everything in that article a lie? It say's she plays ruck, says she kicked 15 goals in 3 games but now I'm being told that's all wrong as well she is a full forward that has kicked 17 goals in 8 games. I'm starting to suspect she isn't even a woman like the article said either!

 

[Bazzar]

Will be good for a laugh as it needs something to add some sparkle and life to this d grade competition.

 

[Walshy1]

She shouldn't play at all. People are going to say thats discriminatory and the person is being left out or whatever but its just simple. She cant play with girls that will get destroyed from a tackle or on the scoreboard.

I wonder why there aren't any trans-men playing afl?