Religion Folau

Evolved1

Senior List
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Posts
203
Likes
182
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
He believes in something and is standing up for it. Nothing wrong with that, while I may disagree with his beliefs, he is allowed to have them.
Nobody is arguing against his right to believe in anything he chooses, regardless of how uneducated or bigoted it is. When he posts his beliefs on social media in violation of his obligations as an employee of RA, that's where issues surface that can potentially lead to termination of his employment.

The argument that everyone should be to free make a stand for their beliefs without consequence falls down quickly when you consider Osama Bin Laden as an example. Did you respect Osama's right to promote religious terrorism; his belief that 9/11 was just and the will of his deity should be freely presented to the public, no?
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Bradesmaen

Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Posts
34,646
Likes
8,899
Location
London
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
SJ Sharks/Everton/NY Jets
Nobody is arguing against his right to believe in anything he chooses, regardless of how uneducated or bigoted it is. When he posts his beliefs on social media in violation of his obligations as an employee of RA, that's where issues surface that can potentially lead to termination of his employment.

The argument that everyone should be to free make a stand for their beliefs without consequence falls down quickly when you consider Osama Bin Laden as an example. Did you respect Osama's right to promote religious terrorism; his belief that 9/11 was just and the will of his deity should be freely presented to the public, no?
Promoting violence is different... That's a pretty obvious one.
 

Bradesmaen

Hall of Famer
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Posts
34,646
Likes
8,899
Location
London
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
SJ Sharks/Everton/NY Jets
I don't see why it's obvious given the statistics relating to mental health issues along with the suicide numbers of our homosexual youth.

Why is the dissemination of homophobic religious propaganda acceptable to you?
I never said it was. Congrats on descending to the level of other people on this forum.

One is directly espousing violence and death to a country. The other is saying that in his beliefs, homosexuals etc will burn in hell. Good for him. As far as I am concerned there is no afterlife and this will not affect me so he's being a dick but he is not suggesting that people should go and kill themselves.
 

aflfootyfanatic

WC for Premiers 2019
Suspended
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Posts
145
Likes
111
Location
in a shed, somewhere in the bush
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
west coast west coast west coast
I know a fundamentalist Christian church full of judgmental ex-druggie assholes just like Folau.

They exchange one form of assholery for another.
You're a bigot. What drives a person to hate people such as Christians? Thank goodness we don't have idiots like you running our country. Tell me right now, give me one good reason why you should hate Christians or other religions because of their beliefs. Jeez, talk about discrimination. I don't want to hear any more of your ******** so ******** and spread your hateful and discriminative comments elsewhere.
 

Evolved1

Senior List
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Posts
203
Likes
182
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
I never said it was. Congrats on descending to the level of other people on this forum.

One is directly espousing violence and death to a country. The other is saying that in his beliefs, homosexuals etc will burn in hell. Good for him. As far as I am concerned there is no afterlife and this will not affect me so he's being a dick but he is not suggesting that people should go and kill themselves.
You claimed there was nothing wrong with Folau taking a stand for his beliefs when he posted homophobic views on social media; in all likelihood, his post will contribute to the mental health issues of LBGTI Australians.

If you have a better explanation for your words below, I'd love to see it...

He believes in something and is standing up for it. Nothing wrong with that, while I may disagree with his beliefs, he is allowed to have them.
 
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Posts
203
Likes
182
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
You're a bigot. What drives a person to hate people such as Christians? Thank goodness we don't have idiots like you running our country. Tell me right now, give me one good reason why you should hate Christians or other religions because of their beliefs. Jeez, talk about discrimination. I don't want to hear any more of your ******** so ******** and spread your hateful and discriminative comments elsewhere.
I'll pray for you.
 
Joined
Apr 8, 2007
Posts
34,646
Likes
8,899
Location
London
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
SJ Sharks/Everton/NY Jets
You claimed there was nothing wrong with Folau taking a stand for his beliefs when he posted homophobic views on social media; in all likelihood, his post will contribute to the mental health issues of LBGTI Australians.

If you have a better explanation for your words below, I'd love to see it...
But did he threaten them? Did he potentially take something away from them? There is a stark difference. As I said I don't agree with him, but it's nothing you wouldn't hear in a church at times. Not sure what you are trying to achieve apart from grandstanding.
 

FrakturedHalo

The Voice of Reason
Joined
May 6, 2017
Posts
325
Likes
383
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Maybe everyone should have a read of this fairly articulate and objective article written by Prof Nick Aroney who is a constitutional law expert on various expert government panels and has been involved in a number of UNHCR panels on human rights and the right to freedom of expression and hate speech etc. I don’t doubt there’ll still be many here who will just close their eyes and ears to anything that doesnt support their opinions or claims however erroneous they may be when it comes to hard verifiable legal facts and that’s their perogative, but others may find it an interesting alternative viewpoint

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/na...n/news-story/740a5404e88decf832a044b4412fbb89
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

CheapCharlie

Premiership Player
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Posts
4,554
Likes
4,779
AFL Club
Sydney
I don't see why it's obvious given the statistics relating to mental health issues along with the suicide numbers of our homosexual youth.

Why is the dissemination of homophobic religious propaganda acceptable to you?
The pathos is heavy with you

You claimed there was nothing wrong with Folau taking a stand for his beliefs when he posted homophobic views on social media; in all likelihood, his post will contribute to the mental health issues of LBGTI Australians.

If you have a better explanation for your words below, I'd love to see it...
How and why would his post contribute to the mental health of the LGBTI community?
How many of the LGBTI community would Folau's post affect? In rough percentage term? 90%? 50%?
How many LGBTI people identify with the same religious beliefs as Folau?
 

CheapCharlie

Premiership Player
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Posts
4,554
Likes
4,779
AFL Club
Sydney
Maybe everyone should have a read of this fairly articulate and objective article written by Prof Nick Aroney who is a constitutional law expert on various expert government panels and has been involved in a number of UNHCR panels on human rights and the right to freedom of expression and hate speech etc. I don’t doubt there’ll still be many here who will just close their eyes and ears to anything that doesnt support their opinions or claims however erroneous they may be when it comes to hard verifiable legal facts and that’s their perogative, but others may find it an interesting alternative viewpoint

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/na...n/news-story/740a5404e88decf832a044b4412fbb89
snip1.PNG
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Posts
322
Likes
421
Location
Sydney
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Liverpool FC, Inter , Padres
Nobody is arguing against his right to believe in anything he chooses, regardless of how uneducated or bigoted it is. When he posts his beliefs on social media in violation of his obligations as an employee of RA, that's where issues surface that can potentially lead to termination of his employment.

The argument that everyone should be to free make a stand for their beliefs without consequence falls down quickly when you consider Osama Bin Laden as an example. Did you respect Osama's right to promote religious terrorism; his belief that 9/11 was just and the will of his deity should be freely presented to the public, no?
Yeah, Osama Bin Ladin was not just promoting extremist religious beliefs, he was funding major terrorist attacks that killed innocent civilians .

Talk about apples and oranges.
 

OniAu

Premiership Player
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Posts
4,946
Likes
3,646
Location
Bendigo
AFL Club
Collingwood
Guy posts hate speech. Guy gets sacked form employer for doing so.

Is there anything really else to discuss ?

Whether it’s a picture or words or part of a list of other “ sins “ through his religion it is what it is. Homosexuality isn’t a choice. He knows that as well as any heterosexual who didn’t choose to be attracted to the opposite sex , they were born that way.

He has every right to have his beliefs and freedom of speech. But don’t have a whinge when it gets questioned. Can’t have it both ways


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

FrakturedHalo

The Voice of Reason
Joined
May 6, 2017
Posts
325
Likes
383
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Collingwood
Sorry, here u go

Legal experts warned of Folau situation

12:00AM May 4, 2019

This weekend Israel Folau will appear before a hearing to determine whether his contract with Rugby Australia will be terminated for controversial posts he made on social media.
There is little publicly available information about the terms of Folau’s contract or the content of his discussions with Rugby Australia about the matter.
Much will depend on the exact nature of Folau’s contractual obligations.
Rugby Australia has a code of conduct published on its website which requires players to treat everyone equally, fairly and with dignity regardless of gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity or religious background, age or disability.
The code also says that bullying, harassment or discrimination have no place in rugby and that players should use social media appropriately, and not in a manner which breaches any of the expectations or requirements contained in the code.
This all sounds reasonable, provided it is applied in a reasonable manner.
Some argue that freedom of religion and freedom of speech are at stake in Folau’s case. Powerful corporations like Rugby Australia should not prevent their employees from expressing their religious beliefs.
Others argue that what Folau said was a harmful form of discriminatory speech which Rugby Australia has every right to prohibit.
This brings to mind article 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which calls for the prohibition of ‘any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence’.
Could Folau’s social media posts be construed as an expression of hate speech in terms of article 20?
When it ratified the International Covenant, Australia reserved the right not to introduce any further laws on these matters. Our government said that it interpreted article 20 as being consistent with the rights to freedom of expression, assembly and association which are also protected by the Covenant.
The line between hate speech and freedom of expression must be drawn clearly and wisely. When carefully assessed, it is highly unlikely that Folau’s social media posts would constitute hate speech as defined in international human rights law.
A distinguished group of legal experts were convened by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights to undertake a comprehensive assessment of the relationship between freedom of expression and hate speech.
Their final meeting was held in Rabat, Morocco in October 2012. The result was a document now known as the Rabat Plan of Action.
The experts identified two serious problems. Some countries turn a blind eye to hate speech which incites people to the most awful acts of violence. Other countries allow policies or practices to develop under which freedom of speech is suppressed and minorities are persecuted.
Charting a course between Scylla and Charybdis, the experts concluded that the International Covenant deliberately establishes a high threshold for the restriction of hate speech because, as a matter of fundamental principle, any limitation of freedom of expression must be exceptional.
They said that freedom to exercise one’s religion or belief cannot exist if freedom of expression is not respected, and free public discourse depends on respect for people’s diverse convictions.
The experts emphasised that any censorship of hate speech must be clearly and narrowly defined, it must adopt the least intrusive means possible, and it must not be unnecessarily broad. It must be proportionate to its purpose and it must accord closely with the precise language of article 20.
In other words, it must only be targeted at speech which advocates hatred and which constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence.
Hatred, the experts said, refers only to the most severe and deeply felt forms of opprobrium.
Folau’s social media posts bluntly warned that ‘drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators’ will end up in hell unless they repent. He was quoting from the Bible. But he also, in keeping with his biblical beliefs, professed his love and acceptance of all people and he did not advocate that anything harmful be done to anyone.
Folau has a considerable profile and following on social media, so his statements reach a significant audience. But his followers were soon dwarfed by the number of people who came to know about his posts through subsequent media reporting. Without this reporting, most of us would never have known about them. Considering his original audience, is there reason to think they would have been incited to discrimination, hostility or violence? I doubt it.
The intent of the speaker is an important factor the experts emphasised. Merely being negligent or reckless in one’s speech is not enough. The advocacy of hatred and the incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence must be deliberate.
It is therefore vital to give close attention to the precise content, manner and context of the speech in question. What exactly is it advocating? What responses is it most likely to evoke?
In addition to repeatedly expressing his love and acceptance of all people, Folau has confessed to having committed many of the sins about which he now warns his readers. This makes it difficult to attribute any intention on his part to advocate hatred against these classes of people, for he numbers himself amongst them.
Considered as a whole, and in the full context in which they were expressed, it is very difficult to conclude that Folau’s posts would be likely to incite people to act in a manner that is discriminatory, hostile or violent.
What Folau has said is not an example of hate speech, and he should not lose his rugby career as a result. The NSW Waratahs have not been the same team without him.
According to the experts who contributed to the Rabat Plan of Action, freedom of expression is essential to creating an environment in which constructive discussion about religious matters can occur, for free and critical thinking in open debate is the soundest way to probe whether religious interpretations adhere to or distort the original values that underpin religious belief.
There has been much public discussion of Folau’s social media posts in precisely these terms.
And that is how it should be.

Nicholas Aroney is a professor of constitutional law at the University of Queensland and was a member of the federal government’s expert panel on the protection of freedom of expression in Australia.
 

Sausages

HIGH PRIEST IN THE TEMPLE OF GG/SNSD
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Posts
4,753
Likes
6,475
Location
space
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Luton Town
Good article Frak.

It's a case that has massive ramifications throughout the professional landscape in Australia.

My position has always been he can say and do as he pleases, but if it breaches his contractual obligations with his employer then he is in strife, which to me is the core issue.

If his contractual obligations infringe on his freedoms, then we have a big problem, since many people operate under similar contracts across many sectors of professional life, be they in sport or otherwise.

He'll never play representative rugby again - but that's neither here nor there. Were I RA, I'd just pay his contract out and then continue assessing the contracts of other players in light of legal advice such as the one you've presented. If this case went to the High Court, the effect across the employment landscape would be significant.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Posts
6,451
Likes
7,889
AFL Club
Fremantle
The pathos is heavy with you



How and why would his post contribute to the mental health of the LGBTI community?
How many of the LGBTI community would Folau's post affect? In rough percentage term? 90%? 50%?
How many LGBTI people identify with the same religious beliefs as Folau?
Threatening suicide is generally thought of as a form of emotional abuse, a highly manipulative form of domestic violence.

It’s strange that it’s allowed in political discussion.
 
Last edited:

CheapCharlie

Premiership Player
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Posts
4,554
Likes
4,779
AFL Club
Sydney
Hatred, the experts said, refers only to the most severe and deeply felt forms of opprobrium.
Folau’s social media posts bluntly warned that ‘drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolators’ will end up in hell unless they repent. He was quoting from the Bible. But he also, in keeping with his biblical beliefs, professed his love and acceptance of all people and he did not advocate that anything harmful be done to anyone.
The bible can be the most widely held book in society, but quoting from it to an audience of like minded people can cost you your job
Doesn't make a great deal of sense.



Folau has a considerable profile and following on social media, so his statements reach a significant audience. But his followers were soon dwarfed by the number of people who came to know about his posts through subsequent media reporting. Without this reporting, most of us would never have known about them. Considering his original audience, is there reason to think they would have been incited to discrimination, hostility or violence? I doubt it.
The intent of the speaker is an important factor the experts emphasised. Merely being negligent or reckless in one’s speech is not enough. The advocacy of hatred and the incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence must be deliberate.
Folau was preaching to the converted, but it was shared outside his target audience.
Why should he apologise or lose his job for something that is legal and he can say or post , or anyone can say and post , any day of the week or at anytime?


In addition to repeatedly expressing his love and acceptance of all people, Folau has confessed to having committed many of the sins about which he now warns his readers. This makes it difficult to attribute any intention on his part to advocate hatred against these classes of people, for he numbers himself amongst them.
Considered as a whole, and in the full context in which they were expressed, it is very difficult to conclude that Folau’s posts would be likely to incite people to act in a manner that is discriminatory, hostile or violent.
What Folau has said is not an example of hate speech, and he should not lose his rugby career as a result.

Speech that can offend the mentally fragile, for sure.
Hate speech, no
hate speech, no
 

skilts

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 14, 2002
Posts
17,611
Likes
6,154
Location
South-West Gippsland
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Lexton, Northcote Park
The bible can be the most widely held book in society, but quoting from it to an audience of like minded people can cost you your job
There is something you mention here that confuses me. Where in any of the many books of the bible is the word, 'homosexual' mentioned? As far as I know, Jesus was never quoted in the new testament as having an opinion on the issue. For these reasons, I doubt the Faulo was quoting the bible, as you suggest.
 

CheapCharlie

Premiership Player
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Posts
4,554
Likes
4,779
AFL Club
Sydney
There is something you mention here that confuses me. Where in any of the many books of the bible is the word, 'homosexual' mentioned? As far as I know, Jesus was never quoted in the new testament as having an opinion on the issue. For these reasons, I doubt the Faulo was quoting the bible, as you suggest.
The quote is men who have sex with men, so yes it was what he was referencing.

It seems to he accepted evidence he was quoting a bible passage.
 
Top Bottom