Religion Folau

Gough

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Whatever the result, if it goes to court
and the judge awards costs, someone is in for a tidy little earner. The Oz said Issy was paying 25k a day before they'd even hit arbitration.
 

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herculez09

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Alan Joyce is an absolute dickhead the fact is that if he wasn't so offended by a bible verse (if he's an atheist then it doesn't apply to him anyway). Then none of this was gonna happen, the result is pathetic, Alan Joyce is a pussy, and his airline is **** as well.
Yes, it's Alan Joyce's fault that Folau is a campaigner.

Next up: Why the Armenians are to blame for the Armenian Genocide.
 

FrakturedHalo

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He was found guilty of a high level breach the players' code of conduct by a three person panel.
Wrong, the language in the media certainly has been using the word “guilty” so you (and the general public at large) can be forgiven for also thinking of it this way, but in actual fact he was found “to have committed a high level breach” which is very different. And that 3 person panel you speak of is not by any means an independent panel it is basically their version of our AFL Commission. You find me an Essendon supporter anywhere who will say the AFL Commission is a transparent, impartial and fair governing body and I will give you a million dollars. Many years ago I did my articles under a solicitor who served as a Commissioner who shall remain nameless, and make absolutely no mistake about it their entire modus operandi and motivations are to protect the organisation/s running it and to a lesser extent the game itself. Yes there is a players union representative on the panel but don’t think he was there to protect the interests of Folau any more than the AFLPA would stick their neck out for any one player they’re nothing like the police associations, you don’t bite the hand that feeds you is their general way of thinking. The fact that they took over four days to deliberate and reach a decision anyway when RA assumed it’d be done in one indicates that the whole thing is not as clear cut and dry as people may like to tell themselves and others it is. Will be interesting to see what the penalty they are going to decide to issue is, personally I can’t see them being brazen enough to uphold the termination but you never know, it isn’t the end of it nowhere near it
 

randyzany

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It all boils down to quoting a bunch of scriptures from the Bible. If that laughable initial decision is upheld (sacking Folau and terminating his contract without proper reason) Folau should take the RA to the cleaners. Because what they're essentially saying is that Christian scriptures (commonly used in court rooms lol) amount to 'hate speech' and basically terminating Folau's employment for being one. And I'm pretty sure that falls under discrimination of religion.

I understand that homosexuals don't appreciate having their sexuality labeled as 'sinful'/'immoral'/etc.. but that hardly constitutes hate speech. Now had Folua argued for decapitating gays, throwing them off roofs etc... then that's a different story altogether.
 

madmug

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It all boils down to quoting a bunch of scriptures from the Bible. If that laughable initial decision is upheld (sacking Folau and terminating his contract without proper reason) Folau should take the RA to the cleaners. Because what they're essentially saying is that Christian scriptures (commonly used in court rooms lol) amount to 'hate speech' and basically terminating Folau's employment for being one. And I'm pretty sure that falls under discrimination of religion.

I understand that homosexuals don't appreciate having their sexuality labeled as 'sinful'/'immoral'/etc.. but that hardly constitutes hate speech. Now had Folua argued for decapitating gays, throwing them off roofs etc... then that's a different story altogether.
What does Folau's contract say about it?

Anyway having your beliefs is not the same as using your profile to attack another group in the Community.

The question is, his brand of religion loving & inclusive, or divisive & hateful? Does a high profile organisation have to tolerate divisive & hurtfull comment which serves no good purpose? In fact it attracts undeserved attention.

Should Folau resign & then do & say whatever he wants without damaging his employer?
 

Bomberboyokay

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I'm loving this. For literally most of life I was exposed to homophobia on a regular basis, it became water off a duck's back for the most part but that's something you have to work at. Now the boot is on the other foot, and that sort of thing is no longer considered acceptable for whatever reason, the amount of pleasure I'm getting from seeing the usual cultural warrior suspects work themselves into a lather over this is considerable.
Not gay or old (sorry) but I'm dismayed how many people, basically only right wing people, think Falou is the victim in this story. Showing their true colours. Where's this concern for refugees? Loudmouth Muslims? Aboriginals? They have none. Honorary white Christian in trouble for homophobia, ******* pissed about that though. Dark look at the people who vote Liberal.
 
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Socrates2

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To be fair, Israel is a religious zealot.

Israel Folau has revealed how he resisted the “temptation” of a peace offering from Rugby Australia that would have allowed him to resurrect his playing career
 

Sausages

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Why is the independent tribunal not impartial, what did you base this on or did you just make it up as you went along?
Whilst I'm not the author of the original post you are referencing, the tribunal, it can be argued, is neither independent nor impartial.

It can be argued that it's not independent, since it is comprised of 3 people, with EACH PARTY represented within that tribunal. Each party in this (RA/Folau) have their advocates, who are in turn presenting and arguing their respective sides' position to a tribunal where there is AT LEAST ONE person receptive to their view - RA representative Kate Eastman SC (for RA) and the Rugby Union Players’ Association-elected John Boultbee (for Folau). The term 'independence' used here is done so to indicate the tribunal chair, John West QC, is connected to neither party and will likely function as the judge within the tribunal deliberations (which nobody outside of the tribunal will see of course) - hence, "independent".

Furthermore, it could also be argued that it's not impartial since they are interpreting a contractual dispute in a way that serves the best interests of all parties and is justified by referring it to the legalities and intention of that contract. This is fundamentally different to a Court of Law, which strives to achieve impartiality through application of the law irrespective of the damage any ruling may have and does so in the interests of the public good, as opposed to in the best interests of the parties present - and which is precisely why the ruling can be challenged in a court should either Folau or RA disagree with the decision of the tribunal. In a judicial judgment, there are concepts introduced such as interpretation of the law, legal precedent and jurisprudence which can perceptually alter the judgement beyond the legalities presented. Whilst this is why the head of tribunal is a QC - bringing this expertise to bear in an effort to achieve impartiality - with the tribunal ALSO being comprised of 2 persons who are connected to the plaintiff and defendant, the argument of impartiality could be disputed.

So, it's exactly what it says on the box - it's a 3 person independent tribunal. Two barristers (one for either side) and the QC who is presiding. Large corporate bodies often have these tribunal processes to AVOID the increased costs, both financial and public, of a true court process. This is why most observers believe this will end up in a court anyway, since Folau won't accept a ruling against him and RA can't afford to keep him on if they are ruled against.

And before you go bashing out a response, whether you, me or anyone else agrees that it is independent, impartial or not is up to that person to decide for themselves. I have just presented you with some arguments as to why it COULD BE CONSIDERED neither independent nor impartial. If you wish to believe it is, that's fine. Likewise, if someone else believes it isn't, that's fine too.
 

Kwality

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He is allowed to express them but if his employer has asked that he not post anti-gay stuff online and he goes ahead and does that, then he has to accept the consequences.

If I was to do the same thing at my place of work, (that is post what he did and identify my place of work) I would definitely expect a call from HR to pull down the posts and not to do it again, if I was lucky. Not only did he do it after being warned to do it, he refused to take down the posts after being asked by his employer to do so. Why should Folau be any different to a pleb like me?

I do note that just about every political party has dis-endorsed a candidate in the current election because of stuff they've posted online.

He is free to express whatever he wants to. And his employer is free to sack him if they believe those actions are not in line with what they expect from their employees.
Fine in theory Rusty, isnt the point that Folau has a contract & if his employer wants to void it, its the employer that has the problem at law. Free to sack in line with the contract.
Then the bigger issue that he may not be able to be re employed due to an agreement between the ARU & the NRL, does that represent a restraint of trade for which Folau should/could/might be compensated ...

Yet to understand why the offended even read what he had to say given his views were well known prior to the latest explosion of offence being taken.
 

Bomberboyokay

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To be fair, Israel is a religious zealot.

Israel Folau has revealed how he resisted the “temptation” of a peace offering from Rugby Australia that would have allowed him to resurrect his playing career
Like more than a few devout religious types, Folau's said he only went all in on being a sanctimonious asshole after he had his fill of sex and drugs (which I imagine was quite a lot as a professional footballer).
 

Rusty Brookes

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Fine in theory Rusty, isnt the point that Folau has a contract & if his employer wants to void it, its the employer that has the problem at law. Free to sack in line with the contract.
Then the bigger issue that he may not be able to be re employed due to an agreement between the ARU & the NRL, does that represent a restraint of trade for which Folau should/could/might be compensated ...

Yet to understand why the offended even read what he had to say given his views were well known prior to the latest explosion of offence being taken.
Sorry I'm missing the gist here. The contract is void because Folau didn't follow the terms and conditions of the contract - that's the argument that the ARU would be taking. He was given ample opportunity to comply with the terms of his employment and chose not to. It will be up to Folau to argue why contract shouldn't apply in the situation if he takes it to court. The contract goes both way.

The restraint of trade thing - is there a contract/agreement between the ARU and NRL? I'm not aware of one but if there is then yes, that would sound like a restraint of trade. But that surely would be a separate issue.

And your last point doesn't really come into it. Whether anyone is offended or not is not really the point - the point was he was asked not to post stuff like he did by his employer. He chose to post stuff that could be construed as homophobic after being given a warning and then refused to take it down when asked to do so.
 

AM

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That clears it all up. Turns out Israel hears voices. Wonder if he always follows what these 'voices' tell him to do.

"God spoke to me". That was the explanation Israel Folau gave for his second round of inflammatory social media posts when he fronted a Rugby Australia disciplinary hearing.
SMH
 

Cooldude

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That clears it all up. Turns out Israel hears voices. Wonder if he always follows what these 'voices' tell him to do.



SMH
Seems like all those sex and drugs he used to do has damaged his brain, that is a more valid deterrent to drugs than telling people you'd go to hell: if you do drugs you'd be as crazy and stupid as Izzy
 

Evolved1

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It’s understood Super Rugby’s all-time leading try-scorer would have been allowed to resume playing again had he agreed to take down his latest controversial post.

“There have been many opportunities to potentially make the situation a little bit easier. I could go back and play the game, get everything back to the way it used to be,” Folau said.
“The way Satan works is he offers you stuff that could look good to the eye and makes you feel comfortable, and if you follow that path all the worries and troubles will go away.
“(But) it is always the will of God that comes first.”
https://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby...s/news-story/c8340afb65f89155e75d2715e32a538f

IOW Folau was given many opportunities to delete his tweet and receive little more than a slap on the wrist for being a dumb campaigner...yet he bravely resisted the tempting offer of comfortable satin sheets.

It's the same level of bravado I saw during his 'all too brief' AFL career. :poo::poo::poo:
 

Bradesmaen

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It’s understood Super Rugby’s all-time leading try-scorer would have been allowed to resume playing again had he agreed to take down his latest controversial post.

“There have been many opportunities to potentially make the situation a little bit easier. I could go back and play the game, get everything back to the way it used to be,” Folau said.
“The way Satan works is he offers you stuff that could look good to the eye and makes you feel comfortable, and if you follow that path all the worries and troubles will go away.
“(But) it is always the will of God that comes first.”
https://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby...s/news-story/c8340afb65f89155e75d2715e32a538f

IOW Folau was given many opportunities to delete his tweet and receive little more than a slap on the wrist for being a dumb campaigner...yet he bravely resisted the tempting offer of comfortable satin sheets.

It's the same level of bravado I saw during his 'all too brief' AFL career. :poo::poo::poo:
He believes in something and is standing up for it. Nothing wrong with that, while I may disagree with his beliefs, he is allowed to have them.
 

Evolved1

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Like more than a few devout religious types, Folau's said he only went all in on being a sanctimonious asshole after he had his fill of sex and drugs (which I imagine was quite a lot as a professional footballer).
I know a fundamentalist Christian church full of judgmental ex-druggie assholes just like Folau.

They exchange one form of assholery for another.
 
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