Forward Issues??

[shawthing09]

That actually a good Question because both Cloke and Dawes seem to be more Lead-Up Forwards then Deep Forwards. Does that mean we use someone like Bryan in the Role or do we trade/draft a Deep Tall Forward or Try and Make Dawes more a Deep Forward but does not sound like it with his big tank

I think at the moment the best outcome for our fowardline long term seems to be if Cloke continues to improve his play a little deeper and plays that CHF/FF role that Pav and Brown play. Dawes making it as a CHF would help this and utilise his good field kicking. I am think Cloke can play the role but I am not sure A) Whether that is where he is best used B) Whether that is where the club want to use him. More so it is no certainty that he can play the role which raises the original question.

 

[daics cousin]

Not really

we have played 1 pre season match and Cloke kicked four and anthony 2 and he played poorly

Medhurst is back to full training, and still has a month

Dawes until this week has looked awesome on the track

Rocca is recovering but will be ready early in the season

Rusling is basically back doing full work we are just being careful with him


More then happy with that

Totally agree with Opti.
Plus why play all these guys now anyway,give players like reid,Anthony,
Macacffer and more of the kids a run up forward.
We need the ruslings,rocca's and the medhursts,ready for the season proper not these practise games.

 

[DaVe86]

Im not overly concerned.


Trav Cloke is the big one for us...and he has had a good pre-season and looked pretty good against West Coast. Maybe a little scratchy but still dobbed 3 or 4.


For Collingwood to make a running, Cloke has to start kicking goals. He is the most important player on our list at the moment. But he has never established himself as a goal-kicker. So the fact that he is in good touch is very pleasing.


Then we have Didak, Thomas and Davis who look ready to burn this year. All look super fit and have points to prove. Didak for obvious reasons, Thomas because he had an inconsistent 08 and Davis because he needs to show he can back up a career best season and really establish himself as an A grader.



Medhurst and Rocca are obvious worries. But im not overly concerned. It may take Medders a month to hit top form, but he will be right for round 1 and would be on a modified program.

Rocca was never going to do a big pre-season and realistically we can only expect 12-15 games out of him this year. He can still have a big impact in these games, but Dawes or Anthony should start pushing him out.


Rusling was also never going to have a big pre-season but it sounds as though he is coming along alright. No rush on him. He would actually be a good X factor inclusion around mid-year after he gets some match fitness up in VFL.

If teams start working us out, then he will really add a new dimension. I don't see a need to rush him in.


Reid to CHB is a cunning move, he may struggle as a forward.

Macaffer is very solid depth...especially if Medhurst is not ready.

 

[shawthing09]

Rocca was never going to do a big pre-season and realistically we can only expect 12-15 games out of him this year. He can still have a big impact in these games, but Dawes or Anthony should start pushing him out.

Sorry to single you out Dave86 but I am just curious as to why and many others believe either of these two guys will be ready to do that??? Whilst fitness is going to be an issue for the big Ant one thing he does as well as almost any foward in the comp is create a target for the midfielders and straighten the team up. Anthony who whilst preforming well personally certainly hasn't done this as is reflected by his low possie and mark tally per game.

Dawes is in the same mould when he has "played well" it has been more that his positions have been goals he also has a low position and mark tally per game and above that has been given decent delievery. I wish there was a way to measure contests won, lost and broke even becuase I'd suggest Dawes is way on the wrong end of those numbers.

I think it's something that goes missing when people judge fowards. There ability to create a target. If a foward kicks 5 goals from 7 kicks but the team break down around half foward because they can't find a target in the foward 50 then the foward structure is failing.

 

[DaVe86]

Absolutely and i actually agree with everything you said.

The thing people have never appreciated about Rocca is his ability to straighten us up and to create a target.

We have always been a side that kicks long to its forward. We play straighter and more direct with Anth there.

He also ensures a contest. The ball always gets to ground level. Even if he doesnt take marks he ensures he brings the smalls into it.

Also, he ensures he takes the best defender...ala Scarlett last year. He dragged Scarlett so far out of his comfort zone that it opened up our forward line.




But when i say Dawes and Anthony will start pushing him out i mean that this is most likely Ant's last year. We have to continue to future proof our forward line.

If Rocca is fit, he is comfortably in our 22....but what i am saying is that we cannot expect more than 12-15 games from him realistically...so that will give Dawes a real chance to play a good 10 or so games this year which would be a good return.


No need to over exert Rock this year either. Bring him in for the impact crunch games and have him set for finals.


But natural progression will start taking place, and Dawes and Anthony must be given their fair share of senior footy in 09 because they will most likely be the focal points in 2010 onwards.

 

[shawthing09]

Yep fair enough it is a tough one if Rocca does get fit and stay fit. Logic says you pick the side to win games now and he is going to be in the side. However then you are running the risk of not knowing where the other fowards and betting on fowards that may not be ready or good enough and hoping they are.

I think that we have a few fowards that have shown enough so competition for a spot will really drive the guys especially Ja, Rus and Dawes. I think there is 22 games as a third tall out there this year and whether one of them takes that and owns it is yet to be seen. Either way we are going to have either 1 foward nudging the 30's games wise or a spread of guys around the 20. On top of that the competition for spot and what should be an improved VFL side especially in the middle with the inclusions we have from the draft, will mean the fowards should get good experince there. Dawes in particular I actually think will benifit from another year of mainly VFL.

 

[well left]

Dawes in particular I actually think will benifit from another year of mainly VFL.

I think you could be right there. I'd be happy for us to start the year off with JA in the 1's and Rusling and Dawes in the VFL. I think Rusling needs to get some confidence back in his body and know he can string together a succession of games and smash a few VFL defenders before he comes back in.

Similarly with Dawes, I'd love him to spend some time in the VFL getting used to having a stronger body and taking pack marks and overhead marks.

If we can get the two of them up and going and kicking bags in the VFL then we can bring them up and see if they can transfer that form to the next level.

 

[shawthing09]

I think Dawes needs to do a lot of work in a lot of aspects of foward play the main ones being 1stly when to lead, 2ndly where to lead, 3rdly judging where to put himself when the ball is in flight and then his hands above his head. The best way for him to improve all of these things is to play as a number 1 target where a team is trying to funnel the ball through him. He will get far more match oppertunity to judge the ball and take it, and it will be more costly and he will get caught out more when he leads into the wrong spot or at the wrong time.

 

[shawthing09]

Just to update this discussion, Ried playing as a foward again last night changes things a little. As I have said before Cloke seems the most likely and complete target playing deeper. Reid is already capable in a Tarrant like high linking half foward / CHF. So if Ried is a foward we have 3 CHF's. Potentially I really like a Reid Cloke as they complement each other pretty well and offer something different, unfortunately the kicking for goal with these two may be an issue.

 

[Quicky]

Just to update this discussion, Ried playing as a foward again last night changes things a little. As I have said before Cloke seems the most likely and complete target playing deeper. Reid is already capable in a Tarrant like high linking half foward / CHF. So if Ried is a foward we have 3 CHF's. Potentially I really like a Reid Cloke as they complement each other pretty well and offer something different, unfortunately the kicking for goal with these two may be an issue.

I was suggesting pretty much the same thing in another thread. With Rocca out of the forward line I see two set-ups as likely.

----Didak----Reid----Thomas----
--Anthony---Cloke---Medhurst--

OR

----Didak----Cloke----Thomas----
--Anthony---Dawes---Medhurst--

I think with Reids good form the former probably looks the most dangerous with Reid leading up the ground and delivering to Cloke, Medhurst and Anthony as deep forward targets. It would mean that Cloke would be a much more dangerous goalscoring option, hopefully straightening us up in a similar way to what Rocca does for us. Reid would be more of a linking player which would limit the importance of his set-shot ability. I'm really interested to see Reid take his next set-shot just to see how he goes. The later option isn't a bad structure either but I don't really think that too much can be expected of Dawes in terms of his output just yet.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

In those set-ups, I wonder if Macaffer might offer more than Jack Anthony.

He's a more natural forward and would probably get involved in the play a lot more, while still being a great kick for goal, and able to capitalise on limited shots on goal.

 

[Optimax]

In those set-ups, I wonder if Macaffer might offer more than Jack Anthony.

He's a more natural forward and would probably get involved in the play a lot more, while still being a great kick for goal, and able to capitalise on limited shots on goal.

I was thinking last night that it was no longer a Rusling V anthony battle for the lead up FF role

But a three way dance with Macaffer involved, he looked very dangerous last night

 

[Bonuspoints]

I'd like to see more of macaffer before figuring him in for a permanent spot in the 22. From his brief time on the field against the Tigers I thought he looked good versatile forward. I lean towards Anthony mainly because I have no faith in the Ruz's body holding up.

 

[Quicky]

In those set-ups, I wonder if Macaffer might offer more than Jack Anthony.

He's a more natural forward and would probably get involved in the play a lot more, while still being a great kick for goal, and able to capitalise on limited shots on goal.

Yeah definately an option. I tend to overlook Macaffer sometimes because I havn't had the opportunity to see that much of him in the VFL. Think it would actually allow Anthony to drop to the bench and be utilised as a utility both back and forward depending on match-ups. Would add some flexibility to the team and as much as I love the job anthony has done in the forward line i'd love to see what sort of a role he can do down back.

 

[buzzbuzz]

Nathan Brown seems to be shaping up to be either an excellent full back or an excellent utility, ala West Coast's Hunter (when in good form). Hunter was able to swing from FB or CHB to FF or CHF when required, and Brownie's kicking seems good enough and so does his marking.

So is there room for Anthony? I suppose we need Brown to replace Presti, and then Anthony can move back and become a backline utility.

I like Reid as a Tom Harley-esque sweeping backman, but if he and Cloke prove to be a good FF/CHF combo then I'm all for that. The thing about Cloke at CHF and Rus at FF is, while Cloke may not be a pinpoint passer, if he marks around 50 to 60 out he can kick for goal. And Dids, Davis and Lockyer can deliver to Rus at FF. And deliver well.

Yes, it's all speculative as the season is yet to begin, but the prospects are intriguing.

Didak - Reid - Thomas
Macaffer - Cloke - Medhurst ?

Didak - Cloke - Davis
Anthony - Rusling - Medhurst ?

Thomas - Cloke - Davis
Dawes - Rocca - Medhurst ?

Lockyer - Brown - Pendlebury
Davis - Medhurst - Macaffer ?

All possibilites.

 

[sava]

There's also the possibility that I think looks most dangerous:

- Didak --- Cloke --- Reid -

- Medhurst --- Rusling --- Davis -

Cloke and Reid Covering opposite wings to give an option either side of the ground and if one gets it out on the wing then the other can become next target in the chain preferably in the corridor. You then have the superstar leading out of the goalsquare and if everyone is worried about Rusling's forward pressure, you have the two best defensive forwards in the comp next to him in davis and medhurst .. obviously davis didak n medhurst will rotate up the ground during the game but as a starting forward 6 that rivals most in the competition as collingwood have the best small forwards in the comp so what better team to play a defensive flawed superstar out of the goalsquare than collingwood ?