Future of Super Rugby

[Seedsfan]

So based on this the reason the ARU can't ditch the rebels is because they're worried the Vic Government won't want the Lions games?

Are they stupid?

Lions tours are massive. The amount of extra tourism from cashed up Poms would be great for any city. The Vic government will be interested regardless of whether the Rebels are dead or not.

The Victorians won't be, if the Rebels get cut the Wallabies will run out infront of a sea of red.

 

[The_Reaper]

The Victorians won't be, if the Rebels get cut the Wallabies will run out infront of a sea of red.

Bullshit.

Vics are like the most reliable fans in the world for turning up to sporting events.

Sure some hardcore rebels might not turn up (and vice versa Force) but the public will.

And in any case the big money will come from Europe and that influx isn't something any state government will ignore.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

There is BARELY enough talent for 4 teams let alone 5. This is a sensible decision, and one that should have been made a few years ago. Look at some of the rather average players making staring 15 spots across all the Australian teams. There isn't enough depth. Fans want teams to be competitive, at the moment no Australian side is near competitive.

 

[chibimatty]

(if so was it between the Brumbies and the Force, or was it always down to the Force)

Yeah mate, to be honest it was always down to the Force. I've been at the small members meetings with the RugbyWA board since last year. Last year was actually the first time we needed a bailout, so we thought that we may able to get similar bailout money à la the other four franchises over the years. However, instead of getting a grant, we were offered the "sell your IP" deal. This was a wake-up call to us, and made us realise how precarious we were in the competition. It came as a bit of a surprise, because the Force's actual mission was to establish a new growth area outside of Brisbane and inner Sydney, and our programmes of player development and growth of numbers in WA are successful. But the criteria they were looking at from a franchise-culling perspective was mainly to do with SANZAAR travel costs, market population size and overall team success like attendances, performance, ratings, etc. Plus, there was also the threat they would move the team to western Sydney, keeping the name but dropping the RugbyWA logo.

This is why the Force have been looking at the Bundesliga fan-ownership models since last year. So yeah, we've known that we were on the chopping block for a while now.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

At the end of the day (and yes I know NSW, QLD and the Brumbies have been lower) you can't get 8k crows and for questions to not be asked. Honestly be serious are there more than say 5 maybe 6 genuine top line players in that Force side? Surely those 5-6 will get picked up anyway. It makes the other sides stronger.

 

[Hap Hapablap]

At the end of the day (and yes I know NSW, QLD and the Brumbies have been lower) you can't get 8k crows and for questions to not be asked. Honestly be serious are there more than say 5 maybe 6 genuine top line players in that Force side? Surely those 5-6 will get picked up anyway. It makes the other sides stronger.

have the rebels been doing better with their crowds?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

have the rebels been doing better with their crowds?

From absolute memory yes they have this season at least.

The good players (lets cut to the chase that is only a handful) will be picked up by the other 4 sides. It improves our conference against the other conferences. We have been belted by the NZ conference. We don't have the depth to have 5 sides, I said it years ago.

 

[Maester]

We don't have the depth to have 5 sides, I said it years ago.

Whether Australia has the depth to have 5 sides full of Australian players should be irrelevant as rugby has a global player pool.

The ARU could have just increased the number of non-Wallabies eligible imports teams were allowed to recruit. It's stupid to give up having a professional presence in either Perth or Melbourne just as the grassroots benefits of having these teams was starting to bear fruit.

 

[chibimatty]

Whether Australia has the depth to have 5 sides full of Australian players should be irrelevant as rugby has a global player pool.

The ARU could have just increased the number of non-Wallabies eligible imports teams were allowed to recruit. It's stupid to give up having a professional presence in either Perth or Melbourne just as the grassroots benefits of having these teams was starting to bear fruit.

It also makes me furious at the amount of union players who are now being lost to RL at very young ages. Cooper Cronk is but one example of this, but there are plenty more like him around the country. It's one of the reasons I was so glad we saw the returns of WA union boys like Chance Peni and Curtis Rona.

There has been a thread of mismanagement since the Wallabies golden era finished, and the ARU significantly dropped the ball. Growing the game is one thing, but to see the game actually shrink in it's heartlands, is criminal for a national administration.

 

[robbieando]

So based on this the reason the ARU can't ditch the rebels is because they're worried the Vic Government won't want the Lions games?

Are they stupid?

Lions tours are massive. The amount of extra tourism from cashed up Poms would be great for any city. The Vic government will be interested regardless of whether the Rebels are dead or not.

Its for a whole range of Test matches as well as the Lions Test and a Tour match (which becomes pointless if there is no team in that city), plus funding for a Centre of Rugby Excellence.

Also beginning with the next Lions Tour to South Africa in 2019 there will be 2 less matches during the Tour while their Tour fee with the Host Nation rises in 2025 when the new agreement with SANZAAR begins, the result will be less money returning to the Host Union. The new agreement might also have to include Argentina meaning Lions Tours will become once in every 16 years events rather than once in every 12 year events. Sure the fans will come and Governments will be interested thats not the question, this is the first time the ARU have tried "selling" games in this manner to States. The ARU are selling the rights to the Lions Test in connection with rights to other big ticket tests against the likes of New Zealand (already done such a deal for Sydney with the NSW Government until 2031) to make up for the loss of money due in 2025.

So the ARU know they are due a Lions Tour which won't be a lucrative as the 2013 version due to the new SANZAAR agreement with the Lions, so they are trying to make up the shortfall now with State Governments and have a deal in place pending on a team being in said market. Sadly this come up at a time when they decide to cut a team and they are basically broke

 

[robbieando]

Whether Australia has the depth to have 5 sides full of Australian players should be irrelevant as rugby has a global player pool.

The ARU could have just increased the number of non-Wallabies eligible imports teams were allowed to recruit. It's stupid to give up having a professional presence in either Perth or Melbourne just as the grassroots benefits of having these teams was starting to bear fruit.

Agreed with this 100%.

The ARU's cap on imports was always a joke, while having a local only Wallabies selection policy (now somewhat watered down). Super Rugby can't hope to match the English Premiership or the Top 14 in terms of wages but the ARU in trying to force players to stay for the slim chance they might get a Wallabies Cap hurt the expansion teams as players didn't commit long term as they would always keep their options open and thus over time because the Wallabies players in their prime didn't move around it was the fringe players who moved overseas thus creating the gap between the Original 3 and Force and the Rebels. But once the Wallabies started getting the huge offers from Japan and Europe the horse was well and truely bolted.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Whether Australia has the depth to have 5 sides full of Australian players should be irrelevant as rugby has a global player pool.

The ARU could have just increased the number of non-Wallabies eligible imports teams were allowed to recruit. It's stupid to give up having a professional presence in either Perth or Melbourne just as the grassroots benefits of having these teams was starting to bear fruit.

So your great solution is to have a bucketload of imports? I'd rather have 4 good sides rather than 5 pretty average at best sides and I'm being kind there!

Get 4 sides contending and then perhaps expand.

 

[robbieando]

So your great solution is to have a bucketload of imports? I'd rather have 4 good sides rather than 5 pretty average at best sides and I'm being kind there!

Get 4 sides contending and then perhaps expand.

So why would your "back to the future" plan work now, it didn't last time. Only way you can have 4 sides contending is by having imports quotas lifted to complement the remaining players and grassroots development. Even then that would be a tough ask but hey lets get the Waratahs fans to tell us how to improve Rugby

 

[LukeParkerno1]

So why would your "back to the future" plan work now, it didn't last time. Only way you can have 4 sides contending is by having imports quotas lifted to complement the remaining players and grassroots development. Even then that would be a tough ask but hey lets get the Waratahs fans to tell us how to improve Rugby

We probably have 4 good enough squads as it is. We don't have another 30 players on top of that. Look at half the duds NSW have picked this year. We got a few injuries early on and then we had to play barely much more than club standard players.

We need to focus on the areas that are critical and then in the future when we have 4 top quality sides (rather than barely 1) we can think about going back to Perth!

If there was that much demand for a Perth side they would get more than 8k to a game.

 

[robbieando]

We probably have 4 good enough squads as it is. We don't have another 30 players on top of that. Look at half the duds NSW have picked this year. We got a few injuries early on and then we had to play barely much more than club standard players.

Problem with your idea is that the team that gets the cut won't see their players spread evenly around the remaining sides and thus there will still be uneven quality in the squads with the best talent going to either the Reds or the Waratahs. Hardly good for Rugby in this country.

As for the injury excuse at the Waratahs, look at the Rebels who have an even worse injury list. Your idea would hardly help them.

We need to focus on the areas that are critical and then in the future when we have 4 top quality sides (rather than barely 1) we can think about going back to Perth!

Explain why WA isn't important for Rugby Union in this Country over the ACT in terms of population and grassroots development growth? You can't as you seem to think this is about making this about the quality of the teams rather than the stated aims of the ARU. You are just greedy for the Waratahs to get a few better players in the vain hope they might compete against the likes of the New Zealand teams. Good luck doing that with the player drain and keeping the code a import free zone.

If there was that much demand for a Perth side they would get more than 8k to a game.

A strawman argument. Bet the Waratahs would battle to get 8,000 to a game if they were under threat of being closed up as well. Note however that the 3 teams that have been put up for the axe have all drawn 8,000 to a game to its a pointless state to hold the Force to.

 

[The_Reaper]

In five years time the extra squad depth in the other teams will be in the NH anyway.

I'd remind you that the Reds did pretty well shortly after the Rebels came in so five teams didn't weaken them in 2013

 

[Maester]

So your great solution is to have a bucketload of imports? I'd rather have 4 good sides rather than 5 pretty average at best sides and I'm being kind there!

Get 4 sides contending and then perhaps expand.

Why not have more imports if they strengthen the weaker teams? Fans don't care where the players come from, they just want a team to support based in their local area or region or from where they grew up. No one cares how many people from Manchester play for Manchester United or how many people from Chicago play for the Chicago Bulls. I'd rather the ARU focus on Australian fans and Australian communities by having a good professional presence in as many parts of this country as possible rather then continuing in an ultimately futile effort to keep all the Wallabies in the country year round.

The fact is the wage gap between European rugby and Australian rugby is only ever going to increase. So if you want to maintain a model where you pick nearly all the Wallabies from Australian clubs you'll eventually have to consolidate again down to 3 teams, and maybe 2 one day. Ultimately it's a choice between having very few top level teams and little geographic reach, or having a footprint throughout the country that connects to the grassroots, focuses on tribalism and a high amount of well scheduled local content. It works for all the other codes! The Wallabies would probably benefit from that too as there'd be no restrictions on who could be picked.

Rugby basically has no chance of competing with the other codes anywhere that it doesn't have a professional team. It's pretty ridiculous that there isn't a team in Western Sydney for example, and it's stupid to give up on either Perth or Melbourne. Personally I think it's about time the ARU left Super Rugby, picked the Wallabies no matter where they play (or at least reduced the restrictions considerably), and built a sustainable national competition based around our 5 existing teams and maybe an extra 3 to start with. Might not be the best competition in the world but it'd still be a very high level with entertaining rugby and it'd be a base to build from. Better to go backwards a bit to go forward than go through the slow death Australian rugby is putting itself through while the sport booms pretty much everywhere else in the world.

 

[chibimatty]

...It's pretty ridiculous that there isn't a team in Western Sydney for example...

It's funny actually, when you think about it, western Sydney has always had a team, the NSW Waratahs. It's hard to believe more NSW games haven't been taken to the grounds out there, Penrith, Campbelltown, Parramatta. And what of Newcastle?

You know, the more I look at it, there's a hell of a lot of wastefulness going on in NSW rugby, these areas are under their jurisdiction, yet have been under developed. The NSWRU should have been out there growing the game in their own territory, but they didn't. Maybe the solution over the last ten years was actually to allow Australia's most successful union, the Brumbies, to incorporate western Sydney into their provincial borders, rather like they did with NSW Southern Inland and NSW Far South Coast? It certainly says a lot about the NSWRU that they were happy to see two of their own country unions jump ship. You would think they would be enraged about losing legitimate parts of their State to another union, and all the potential players that go with it. Instead, the comment made was "At least the Brumbies can develop their own players rather than stealing ours!" Someone needed to remind them that with the acquisition, the Brumbies are now actually developing your own players to play for them instead.

 

[Pj.Rj.Hj]

Curiously, does anyone know the GDP of Greater Melbourne and that or Greater Perth?
Melbourne is 2.2 times bigger than Perth but no doubt its economy is much more than 2.2 times that of Perth.
Just trying to grasp a very basic sense of the saturation of each market.

As for onfield results, the Force and Rebels are very close. As of this week: The Force has a 31.32%W, 4.22%D, 64.46%L record, The Rebels has a 31%W, 0%D, 69%L record.
WA has generally had stronger grassroots Rugby Union and Rugby League than Victoria but as far as I recall, the current National Junior squads currently have more Victorians (or transplants) than West Aussies.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

There is BARELY enough talent for 4 teams let alone 5. This is a sensible decision, and one that should have been made a few years ago. Look at some of the rather average players making staring 15 spots across all the Australian teams. There isn't enough depth. Fans want teams to be competitive, at the moment no Australian side is near competitive.

Player talent is irrelevant to the decision to cut a team.

 

[Maester]

It's funny actually, when you think about it, western Sydney has always had a team, the NSW Waratahs. It's hard to believe more NSW games haven't been taken to the grounds out there, Penrith, Campbelltown, Parramatta. And what of Newcastle?

You know, the more I look at it, there's a hell of a lot of wastefulness going on in NSW rugby, these areas are under their jurisdiction, yet have been under developed. The NSWRU should have been out there growing the game in their own territory, but they didn't. Maybe the solution over the last ten years was actually to allow Australia's most successful union, the Brumbies, to incorporate western Sydney into their provincial borders, rather like they did with NSW Southern Inland and NSW Far South Coast? It certainly says a lot about the NSWRU that they were happy to see two of their own country unions jump ship. You would think they would be enraged about losing legitimate parts of their State to another union, and all the potential players that go with it. Instead, the comment made was "At least the Brumbies can develop their own players rather than stealing ours!" Someone needed to remind them that with the acquisition, the Brumbies are now actually developing your own players to play for them instead.

The Waratahs are basically an Eastern Suburbs and North Shore of Sydney team. As someone who grew up in the North West I've always thought if a 2nd Sydney team was introduced based in Parramatta or Homebush that I'd probably switch allegiance, even though I now live near North Sydney. There's a great local rivalry to be had for Rugby in Sydney because the Waratahs just can't shake their kind of snooty, private school image - and with a local rival they could even embrace it and be a great villain to a 2nd Sydney team.

Ideally I think the west of Sydney is too big and important to be just a 1 or 2 games a year area for either the Tahs or the Brumbies, but I think you're right that the Brumbies would probably do more for it than the Waratahs do despite them being based in Sydney!

While I still have a small amount of hope that something will happen that forces the ARU and SANZAAR to keep 5 Australian teams, if the one team is to be cut I think it has to be the Rebels, with the Brumbies then incorporating Victoria and playing a couple of games per year in Melbourne. This strikes me as the least bad option. The Force fans have more passion and the grassroots gains in WA are too important to give up. I don't like cutting the Rebels at all but if the Brumbies could incorporate the region, play a couple of Super Rugby games in Melbourne and run the Rebels in the NRC then I think there'd still be some future for Rugby there.

 

[chibimatty]

It's so true what you say about the Waratahs and I really wish the ARU would push them to do more to bring the "New South Wales" back into the "New South Wales Waratahs." It's kind of ironic that "Waratah Rugby Park" was over there in Concord.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the difference in rugby cultures of Melbourne and WA. I do feel that Victoria can still survive without the Rebels by continuing to have test matches there; however the same can't be said for WA. The public has become so disillusioned with the game, that our Springbok test will now be held at the Force/Glory's rather small stadium. Quite a state of affairs when you consider the numbers of people involved in the game here has grown exponentially, and the overwhelming numbers who've put their hands in their pockets to "Own the Force". It seems, rather like we've seen with the Shute Shield, the rugby folk are none too happy with the top end of town, and are going back to their local club scene to remember what they loved about the game and rekindle their passion for rugby. It would explain why the Perth Spirit's home games are such fun events.

I must admit, I would like to see some part of the footprint kept, even it's the Rebels and Force working together as a joint-venture situation, as disastrous as that may sound, I think it's imperative that something is kept in both cities. Admittedly the Brumbies-Victoria idea is more geographically sound. I honestly can't see any joint-venture working, but given the rather strange behaviours of the ARU over the last couple of years, you never know what may happen; they may try to coerce one out of Cox and RugbyWA.

I'm actually quite pragmatic about the whole thing compared to a lot of other Force die-hards. My major concern is that rugby has a legitimate development area here in WA. I quite frankly don't care that much about the Force itself, but more about rugby in WA. I was an advocate of getting rid of the Force years ago and replacing them with a new WA team, after being frustrated at the mismanagement of the side. Unfortunately, after attending members/board meetings, I have since discovered that a lot of the problems with the Force didn't actually come from the Force itself, it was a combination of State government, ARU and other States' shenanigans that has made a significant contribution to leading us down this path of sub-mediocrity. (For example, Dave Wessels is the first coach we have actually appointed ourselves, all our other coaches have come from extenuating circumstances or outside influences, I was astonished when I found that out.) Having said that though, our own decision-making didn't help the issue which is why I wanted someone else to take over the WA license.

Regardless of whether it's the Force or not, I would not like to see WA miss out on professional rugby, I think it's imperative to have a pathway here. We are in too unique a position by having no NRL presence here, that is something that must be taken advantage of. The ARU must understand also, that the RL vs RU cultural divide is not as prevalent here, schools that play a rugby game have both codes therein. It's why so many WA leaguies have a union background. The NRL therefore has a ready-made pool of players which it can develop quite swiftly once union leaves town. That would be the death-knell of the fifteen-man code.

Because of that impending threat, I am actually quite serious in proposing that as a compromise for the Sunwolves entering the Australian conference, RugbyWA should be aided by the ARU or even SANZAAR in getting a Western Australian team into the Japanese Top-League. The quality of the local players/Perth Spirit would be strong enough to compete, especially if they are all professionalised. I know it's a long-shot though and I can't see why Japan would want us, but there has been a push in Japan recently by the company teams to seek a greater stage for their rugby, so there may be a seed that can bear fruit there, especially if the Hong Kong Rugby Union can be brought along for the ride.

 

[Maester]

Because of that impending threat, I am actually quite serious in proposing that as a compromise for the Sunwolves entering the Australian conference, RugbyWA should be aided by the ARU or even SANZAAR in getting a Western Australian team into the Japanese Top-League. The quality of the local players/Perth Spirit would be strong enough to compete, especially if they are all professionalised. I know it's a long-shot though and I can't see why Japan would want us, but there has been a push in Japan recently by the company teams to seek a greater stage for their rugby, so there may be a seed that can bear fruit there, especially if the Hong Kong Rugby Union can be brought along for the ride.

While I think it'd be good for the Force to seek out other options if they are cut from Super Rugby, the biggest obstacle to joining the Top League would be the fact it's played during the Australian summer. And I can't see Japanese clubs being willing to play away games in Perth during December or January. So unless they change their season I can't really see it happening.

A professional franchise in Hong Kong does make a lot of sense though, especially as the HKRU is flush with cash as a result of good management of decades of HK Sevens revenue. There's also the Asia-Pacific Dragons group based in Singapore that almost won the Super Rugby license over the Sunwolves.

 

[chibimatty]

You're forming the basis of a new Asian league there Maester!

The weather is a big problem for me also, I can only hope that all the games are played at night in Perth.

To be honest, it's a pipedream for someone who wants to ward off the imminent take-over of RL in Perth. That's actually the biggest threat here. But truly if Japan wanted to expand their influence, I get the feeling they would have already made overtures to Korea and Hong Kong by now.

 

[Maester]

I think there could be some bigger things happen in Asian rugby after the 2019 World Cup. But SANZAAR will want this to be within Super Rugby not some other competition, hence their commitment to the Sunwolves.