Analysis Gameplan

[triggering bro]

what if P66 is Richo

richo did say he spent his offtime on the mower

hang on....holy s**t

 

[StCicatriz]

it all suddenly makes sense now. HE WASNT LYING WHEN HE SAID HE KNEW THESE PEOPLE. HE KNEW ALL ALONG!

 

[StCicatriz]

*goes to review tape and GPS tracker*

HOLY s**t

the defencive zone when viewed from above says:
P66

 

[plugger66]

what if P66 is Richo

richo did say he spent his offtime on the mower

hang on....holy s**t

You joke when you have nothing of note to say. I’ve knocked richo plenty enough. I just don’t carry on like you do after every loss you don’t like. You are what think as an extreme supporter. Either rate us way to high or crack it like a spoilt kid.


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[Gangnam Saint]

Haven't posted coz it is the most disappointed I have been for a long time.

The issues we have at a talent, development , skills & gameplan level were totally exposed against North.

Unfortunately there's no quick fixes, we are a long way from where we should & need to be.

 

[triggering bro]

Haven't posted coz it is the most disappointed I have been for a long time.

The issues we have at a talent, development , skills & gameplan level were totally exposed against North.

Unfortunately there's no quick fixes, we are a long way from where we should & need to be.

I feel your disappointent. It’s like we were building to something big for a few seasons & it’s suddenly come to a grinding halt.

 

[Saintbloke]

Bloody harsh on jack Steven


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I'm letting Steven off, but I really mean the players who have been in the system a couple of years and are just going the soft option instead of stepping up.

 

[Present Not Past]

I do have another alternative. Support the club because there is no other choice. It’s round friggin 2.


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Right Bro - I've been doing that for 40 years.

 

[plugger66]

Right Bro - I've been doing that for 40 years.

Good


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[gringo2011]

Mate, over the last 2 years we have won more games than we lost.

Are we improving or not? Sadly you won't know until mid season at the earliest.

If we were playing Adelaide the reaction would have been different. But we were expected to win both internally and externally.

Still, a collective handful cannot control their emotions - which they are entitled to do.

Sadly, you can't fix stupid.

We all cope in different ways, you come on and use your passionless composure to feel superior to others. The players seemed to treat the game in a similar fashion as you treat posting. Disrespectfully poor performance.

 

[VDS66]

We all cope in different ways, you come on and use your passionless composure to feel superior to others. The players seemed to treat the game in a similar fashion as you treat posting. Disrespectfully poor performance.

No wonder you get banned with that attitude. And frankly my comments were not directed at you because you are balanced.

Edit: I am who I am. I don't post the way I do to make myself feel better superior to anyone. I call it as I see it.

If others feel inferior becauseof my style, that's their problem.

Just as you cope in your way, passionless analysing is how I cope.

If people think I'm a dickhead, then that's their entitlement. I don't have a problem with that.

 

[saints2066]

Kamikaze Gameplan—-fast attacking footy

Brisbane—-11 bounces
Nth Melbourne—17 bounces

We have an insane amount of bounces compared to the comp, which proves there is a gameplan that is unique. We have an attacking gameplan, that is relying on winning contested ball, running as many metres as you can, for metres gained and kicking quickly into F50 as quickly as we can; hoping that the defenders are out of position and we can lock the ball in. But the oppo coaches have worked out you just need to put numbers back, then what happens is, they can attack from defence, hence all of our players are out of position. That is why our kicking efficiency inside 50 is so poor. Our lack of pace and outside spread also exposes the fast footy we try to play and then we haven’t developed our skills, because we have been playing fast (rushed) footy for the past 5 years. Our youngsters haven’t learnt the art of poise.

Essendon played similar last night against Freo, and Worsfold mentioned that they were trying to play to fast and as a result Daniher and Bellchambers couldn’t get a look at the ball. Essendon has pace though, but even then it worked against them.

The problem is if we change the gameplan to holding the ball longer and maintaining possession, the players will need a few years to get the skills. Enjoyed Goddard bullet hand passes last night, when have any of our players given a 15 metre bullet? Our players have poor hands, I think there is a massive neglect on skills, they barely do a warm up. Even 1 metre handpasses are too quick or hit the legs.





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[Strahany]

One key area where we get burned massively appears to be on the rebound. Whenever I manage to watch games between two opposition sides, there doesn't seem to be a single side that is so consistently scored against on the rebound as us. This, in itself, is not necessarily a bad thing, provided that the vulnerability to rebound scoring is the negative flip side to an offensive positive.
For example, if a side takes a manic approach which facilitates forward movement and scoring, but opens themselves up on the rebound; that could be justifiable. Or if a game plan is designed around creating open players to maintain and control possession whilst moving forward, at the expense of leaving the opposition players free for a rebound attack; that also could be justifiable.
But, at the moment, the offensive portion of the game plan is completely lacking teeth and is riddled with turnover issues, whilst also opening us up to being scored against on the rebound.

The game plan either has so little room for error that it will require even more time for the players to properly adapt and, once they do, it will be extremely effective. Or, well, it's utterly flawed. We can all hope that it's the former, but how long can we afford to keep waiting whilst missing out on valuable time within the so called 'premiership window' of list demographics?

 

[Gangnam Saint]

The seeming inability to stick tackles is driving me bananas. Opposition is constantly standing up and dishing off comfortably when the tackle is applied which largely negates the pressure act. It's like boys against men.

 

[Nutsngum]

The seeming inability to stick tackles is driving me bananas. Opposition is constantly standing up and dishing off comfortably when the tackle is applied which largely negates the pressure act. It's like boys against men.

This is the major thing I noticed on friday up close, we went in far too soft.

If you go back and watch our more successful games our tackling is absolutely top notch and we actively hurt the opposition with it which forces hasty disposal and turnovers.

Its almost like we are either afraid to overcommit or to give away frees, however giving away a free in this situation should be a secondary consideration. Either you * up the tackle and they get away with it quickly, you stick the tackle and win the free yourself or go high/in the back/etc and give away the free which is going to likely hold up play giving you time to flood back.

Obviously you have to be more careful in defensive 50 but you NEED to take those risks in the midfield. Make them feel every hit.

 

[Moral Decay]

Opposition coaches following the loss to Carlton and following the Sidney model, when playing the Saints only three players matter, Jack Stevens, Dylan Roberton and Seb Ross.

With Armitage back in the team as the

Hard to know the exact reasons why. The only personal change to the centre bounce is Armo. This has meant Dunstan has been dropped, Steele goes to a flank, Acres moves from flank to wing & Sinclair from wing to fwd pocket. As you can see, that one personal change has compounded the problem & impacted other areas on the ground. Do we go back to Seb, Steven & either Dunstan/Steele at the centre bounce?

But, our formline is nothing new. We were poor in the JLT, lucky to beat Brisbane & smacked by the wooden spoon favourites. Now this is alarming from Darren Parkin’s Twitter:

“In Round 16 2017 St.kilda beat Richmond by 67 points. Both sides were 9-6 and seperated by just 1 per cent and 1 ladder position.
Since then
Richmond 10 wins, St.Kilda 3
Quarters won. Richmond 32, St.Kilda 13
Saints percentage 82.8
Tigers percentage 163.1”

Opposition coaches following the loss to Carlton and following the Sydney model, when playing the Saints only three players matter, Jack Stevens, Dylan Roberton and Seb Ross. For the rest it's just one one contested ball. By playing Armo in the centre and Longer I the ruck we diminish our own competiveness and give the opposition a free slap at Ross and Steven, by reducing the coalface time the have, and Steele ends up playing as a stopper. The rucks are doing as they please against Billy whatever possessions or touches he and Armo get, can be written off as not hurting at all.

As you say with Armitage back in the team as the no 1 mid Dunstan has been dropped, Steele goes to a flank, Acres moves from flank to wing & Sinclair from wing to fwd pocket. As you can see, that one personal change has compounded the problem & impacted other areas on the ground. Do we go back to Seb, Steven & either Dunstan/Steele at the centre bounce? ; Armo and Dunstan only play as that inside mid, we probably need to go back to Seb, Steven and Steele. Sinclair and Acres on the wings, Dunstan and Coffield to the bench. If we plan to concede every centre ball up, (with Longer and Hickey as first choice ruck men we probably are) then we simply have to fight for every midfield possession and we're not. Maybe Armo can do it, but against Nth he really didn't, 3 stoppage clearances and none at the centre vs Bruce 3 stoppage clearances and 1 in the centre.

We need to give ourselves the best chance possible, give Ross, Sinclair, Steele, Acres and Steven as much exposure to the contest as possible, we simply have to play Marshall just to give the mids a chance, Sinclair in a pocket is giving them another free pass.
We need to examine the Webster/Roberton dynamic too, forward pressure on Roberton means his disposal count drop to 19 and his D/E fell to 57.9 %.
The opposition can afford Jimmy to get 30 touches because his D/E of 70% isn't going to hurt, remembering that a long kick to a contested situation counts as an effective disposal, God help us if that get out kick is to Longer. Opposition planning is always looking for Roberton to go to the centre corridor and set up accordingly. Coming out of the backline we are both easy to predict, easy to nullify and even when we get it right easy to force the turn over on.
With four mids on the bench with only Clarke with decent disposal and Newnes as a putative reserve hbf , Roberton being held we have no one in defense to hurt with running and kicking possessions.

We've conceded the centre bounce, the midfield contest and rebound from defense before we've started.​

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

So I picked a good time to start reading again after deciding to stay away for a few months!

Having been to both games and after watching both on replay (yes I am a sucker for punishment), and giving it a few days to get over the emotional response, I did want to deliver one whack.

Not so much about the zone defence and structure we are employing, but who is where in this structure.

Take our kick ins on Friday. I lost count of the number of situations where this (or a variation of this) happened.

Brown is the option in the pocket, Carlisle is hovering about 25-35 out. Two of Paddy and or Membery are up on the wing at least two kicks away. One of Bruce or Longer is about 50 out as an option on one side of the ground and the other appears to be on the bench. Now the payers positioning might have some variation on this each time, but the point that I am making is that as we transition out of defence, one side of the ground (about 50m from the kicker) is left with no St.Kilda KPP.

One of Geary, Roberton or Savage then proceeds to bomb long from defensive 50 to the side with no KPP targeting someone such as Sincs, Billings, Gresh or Newnes (often against two or three opposition big men). No switch, no look backwards, just bombs it on top of our short (by comparison) players head who gets either outmarked or outworked in the contest. No big man close enough to impact the contest. Unsurprisingly it comes screaming back in at 100 miles an hour.

I don't understand this. I know there are questions of workrate and the impact of some of our big men around the ground. But it happened too many times to solely come down to work rate and bad decision making.

I realise we have bigger issues than this. But there was something fundamentally broken with our onfield structure when transitioning out of defence on Friday. And most importantly, neither our coaches or onfield leaders were able to fix it on the fly. Right there I think we just got a huge wakeup call to some of the work Joey / Roo / Gilbo / Fisher / Lenny did off the ball.

So for my whack I am not going after some kid who has played 20 odd games and looked to have no confidence and no licence to play on instinct. Instead my whack is for Richo, Kingsley, Geary and Brown who should have the experience to correct a structural flaw coming out of defence during the two hours we watched repeat entry after repeat entry.

Unfortunately my solutions involve throwing bags of cash at Sloane, or implementing a Grant Thomas style leadership development program (which produced up to 5 players capable of captaining the club at any one time). Sadly neither option would fix the problem for next week.

Pretty much every week for the last 20 years, St.Kilda has run out with at least one of Harvey, Hamill, Lenny or Roo to lead the way with players actions, structures and efforts on the field (especially when things are going really bad). So I guess I just needed to vent after having it hit home what no truly great onfield leader means for St.Kilda when things start going wrong

 

[FQFjt]

The game plan is so abysmally ineffective that it actually hurts to watch.

Our losses look terrible, our wins are grinds.

As every week passes it becomes more and more clear that the Richmond win was an aberration.

Beyond the very serious concerns with Richo, I seriously doubt whether this team has the competitive zeal to succeed.

 

[Saint Shags]

From my view and it has been mentioned by a few on here.

1. New defensive setup has put the defenders out of whack. Doubting that the plan is to have Carlisle and Brown 50m off of their opponents.

2. Having both Armo and Stevens in the team creates unbalance. We sat here last year arguing that the team could not sustain both Dunstan and Stevens, we seemed to play better through the midfield when there was only 1 of them. The question is who out of the 3 gets first crack. Imo Dunstan should get a shot. Armo and Stevens while serviceable were comprehensively beaten for contested ball and they struggle with spread. This in turn places pressure on both backs and forwards to try and help out.

3. If point 2 is rectified then the structure of team changes. For instance with 1 spot left in the centre you place Acres. Free spot on wing goes to Sinclair. Clark slots into the forward line. With the spare spot we bring in one of Weller Coffield Rice or White.

4. Out of form players. Few of those really need a perhaps a bit of time in the 2s. And not talking Paddy. He needs continuity.

5. Workrate. Like any gameplan if the workrate isn't there then everything compounds. And that on the weekend was severely lacking. Would love to know what truths were spoken in the meeting on Saturday.

 

[sasaint]

Want to see game plans. Sit down and watch any Hawthorn game. Then a Swans game. Then a Freo game. Each have a distinctive game plan. Then watch a Saints game. IMHO a bit of a mess in comparison. And you can't put that down to the quality of the players.

 

[Tyrian Loinstar]

So I picked a good time to start reading again after deciding to stay away for a few months!

Having been to both games and after watching both on replay (yes I am a sucker for punishment), and giving it a few days to get over the emotional response, I did want to deliver one whack.

Not so much about the zone defence and structure we are employing, but who is where in this structure.

Take our kick ins on Friday. I lost count of the number of situations where this (or a variation of this) happened.

Brown is the option in the pocket, Carlisle is hovering about 25-35 out. Two of Paddy and or Membery are up on the wing at least two kicks away. One of Bruce or Longer is about 50 out as an option on one side of the ground and the other appears to be on the bench. Now the payers positioning might have some variation on this each time, but the point that I am making is that as we transition out of defence, one side of the ground (about 50m from the kicker) is left with no St.Kilda KPP.

One of Geary, Roberton or Savage then proceeds to bomb long from defensive 50 to the side with no KPP targeting someone such as Sincs, Billings, Gresh or Newnes (often against two or three opposition big men). No switch, no look backwards, just bombs it on top of our short (by comparison) players head who gets either outmarked or outworked in the contest. No big man close enough to impact the contest. Unsurprisingly it comes screaming back in at 100 miles an hour.

I don't understand this. I know there are questions of workrate and the impact of some of our big men around the ground. But it happened too many times to solely come down to work rate and bad decision making.

I realise we have bigger issues than this. But there was something fundamentally broken with our onfield structure when transitioning out of defence on Friday. And most importantly, neither our coaches or onfield leaders were able to fix it on the fly. Right there I think we just got a huge wakeup call to some of the work Joey / Roo / Gilbo / Fisher / Lenny did off the ball.

So for my whack I am not going after some kid who has played 20 odd games and looked to have no confidence and no licence to play on instinct. Instead my whack is for Richo, Kingsley, Geary and Brown who should have the experience to correct a structural flaw coming out of defence during the two hours we watched repeat entry after repeat entry.

Unfortunately my solutions involve throwing bags of cash at Sloane, or implementing a Grant Thomas style leadership development program (which produced up to 5 players capable of captaining the club at any one time). Sadly neither option would fix the problem for next week.

Pretty much every week for the last 20 years, St.Kilda has run out with at least one of Harvey, Hamill, Lenny or Roo to lead the way with players actions, structures and efforts on the field (especially when things are going really bad). So I guess I just needed to vent after having it hit home what no truly great onfield leader means for St.Kilda when things start going wrong

Great post!

 

[austinnn]

So I picked a good time to start reading again after deciding to stay away for a few months!

Having been to both games and after watching both on replay (yes I am a sucker for punishment), and giving it a few days to get over the emotional response, I did want to deliver one whack.

Not so much about the zone defence and structure we are employing, but who is where in this structure.

Take our kick ins on Friday. I lost count of the number of situations where this (or a variation of this) happened.

Brown is the option in the pocket, Carlisle is hovering about 25-35 out. Two of Paddy and or Membery are up on the wing at least two kicks away. One of Bruce or Longer is about 50 out as an option on one side of the ground and the other appears to be on the bench. Now the payers positioning might have some variation on this each time, but the point that I am making is that as we transition out of defence, one side of the ground (about 50m from the kicker) is left with no St.Kilda KPP.

One of Geary, Roberton or Savage then proceeds to bomb long from defensive 50 to the side with no KPP targeting someone such as Sincs, Billings, Gresh or Newnes (often against two or three opposition big men). No switch, no look backwards, just bombs it on top of our short (by comparison) players head who gets either outmarked or outworked in the contest. No big man close enough to impact the contest. Unsurprisingly it comes screaming back in at 100 miles an hour.

I don't understand this. I know there are questions of workrate and the impact of some of our big men around the ground. But it happened too many times to solely come down to work rate and bad decision making.

I realise we have bigger issues than this. But there was something fundamentally broken with our onfield structure when transitioning out of defence on Friday. And most importantly, neither our coaches or onfield leaders were able to fix it on the fly. Right there I think we just got a huge wakeup call to some of the work Joey / Roo / Gilbo / Fisher / Lenny did off the ball.

So for my whack I am not going after some kid who has played 20 odd games and looked to have no confidence and no licence to play on instinct. Instead my whack is for Richo, Kingsley, Geary and Brown who should have the experience to correct a structural flaw coming out of defence during the two hours we watched repeat entry after repeat entry.

Unfortunately my solutions involve throwing bags of cash at Sloane, or implementing a Grant Thomas style leadership development program (which produced up to 5 players capable of captaining the club at any one time). Sadly neither option would fix the problem for next week.

Pretty much every week for the last 20 years, St.Kilda has run out with at least one of Harvey, Hamill, Lenny or Roo to lead the way with players actions, structures and efforts on the field (especially when things are going really bad). So I guess I just needed to vent after having it hit home what no truly great onfield leader means for St.Kilda when things start going wrong

It probably doesn't belong in the game plan section but as just a reply to this one post, I would say that right now there IS a leadership vacuum and that leaders will be born From This Moment.

Geary is an extension of Richo a good ordinary bloke and in my mind i had him pegged as Captain Cannonfodder, an interm skipper to take all the pressure of following Nick Riewoldt. He is a probably great bloke and the players' choice, he has turned himself into a valuable player, but he is no General. He is a Sergeant, and that's no bad thing. But perhaps he's too close to the rest of the team, plus how much can a back pocket defender really grab today's game by the scruff of the neck? The best he can do (and has done in the past) is set examples with his ferocity and tenacity. By the end of this year he will have served his purpose as skipper and if this team is fair dunkum, then I expect one of his teammates to demand he hand over captaincy to him.

Anyway, in 2016 the choice was simple: Newnes or Weller. Mav will be lucky if he ever gets back into being a lock for the firsts, while Newnes is severely in need of a touch up in the twos and a skills bath. Maybe one or both of them will emerge from their shadows to claim the crown but should they not, I hope someone else will say "This is my team and if no one else is going to drag it up the hill then I bloody will and you'll all help me"

Dunstan looks likely, I must say, but he needs to get back in the team first. The alternative is a ring-in like Sloane or Gaff.

 

[Saintbloke]

Who in our leadership group, led by example against North? There is a lack of leadership on and off the field when you look at a soft loss like that.

 

[JG22]

Who in our leadership group, led by example against North? There is a lack of leadership on and off the field when you look at a soft loss like that.

geary

 

[triggering bro]

Opposition coaches following the loss to Carlton and following the Sidney model, when playing the Saints only three players matter, Jack Stevens, Dylan Roberton and Seb Ross.

With Armitage back in the team as the

Opposition coaches following the loss to Carlton and following the Sydney model, when playing the Saints only three players matter, Jack Stevens, Dylan Roberton and Seb Ross. For the rest it's just one one contested ball. By playing Armo in the centre and Longer I the ruck we diminish our own competiveness and give the opposition a free slap at Ross and Steven, by reducing the coalface time the have, and Steele ends up playing as a stopper. The rucks are doing as they please against Billy whatever possessions or touches he and Armo get, can be written off as not hurting at all.

As you say with Armitage back in the team as the no 1 mid Dunstan has been dropped, Steele goes to a flank, Acres moves from flank to wing & Sinclair from wing to fwd pocket. As you can see, that one personal change has compounded the problem & impacted other areas on the ground. Do we go back to Seb, Steven & either Dunstan/Steele at the centre bounce? ; Armo and Dunstan only play as that inside mid, we probably need to go back to Seb, Steven and Steele. Sinclair and Acres on the wings, Dunstan and Coffield to the bench. If we plan to concede every centre ball up, (with Longer and Hickey as first choice ruck men we probably are) then we simply have to fight for every midfield possession and we're not. Maybe Armo can do it, but against Nth he really didn't, 3 stoppage clearances and none at the centre vs Bruce 3 stoppage clearances and 1 in the centre.

We need to give ourselves the best chance possible, give Ross, Sinclair, Steele, Acres and Steven as much exposure to the contest as possible, we simply have to play Marshall just to give the mids a chance, Sinclair in a pocket is giving them another free pass.
We need to examine the Webster/Roberton dynamic too, forward pressure on Roberton means his disposal count drop to 19 and his D/E fell to 57.9 %.
The opposition can afford Jimmy to get 30 touches because his D/E of 70% isn't going to hurt, remembering that a long kick to a contested situation counts as an effective disposal, God help us if that get out kick is to Longer. Opposition planning is always looking for Roberton to go to the centre corridor and set up accordingly. Coming out of the backline we are both easy to predict, easy to nullify and even when we get it right easy to force the turn over on.
With four mids on the bench with only Clarke with decent disposal and Newnes as a putative reserve hbf , Roberton being held we have no one in defense to hurt with running and kicking possessions.

We've conceded the centre bounce, the midfield contest and rebound from defense before we've started.​

Good call regarding our three most important players. If the opposition is putting work into Ross, Steven & Robbo it’s up to the individuals to work through it & the coach to implement some positional changes to get them into the game. I’m not sure if the latter occurs often enough.

I understand where you & aussierulesrules are coming from with regard to Armo in for Dunstan & the team dynamics should not be effected for that one for one swap. Without putting in the effort to look at time on ground & heat maps stats, it appears that it isn’t that simple.

A few unanswered questions that may or may not have been impacted by the inclusion of Armo:
- is he being utilised primarily in the centre & were Steele/Dunstan sharing the same role playing 50/50? Has this change negatively effected our stoppage work?
- with Armo taking up more time in the centre & the role not being shared has this meant that Steele has been cast as a winger/flanker which has negatively effected a further field position?
- with Sinclair pushed into a deeper forward position does this mean he is no longer getting the footy in space & able to utilise his skills/creative ability? Is this again impacting our setup negatively?

I’d have to compare heat maps for this year & last year & stoppage stats for this year vs last year. But to the eye it appears there’s been a number of positional changes since the inclusion of Armo which look to have negatively effected our game.

Im sure the club will be looking at all the numbers in order to rectify our poor stoppage work & if positional changes have negatively effected individuals & the overall game plan.

Imo we played our best footy with Ross, Steven & one of Dunstan/Steele attending stoppages. Moving forward though, we need to run players through the middle that move the ball forward because as our now it’s only really Steven that consistently breaks the lines. The obvious inclusion to our stoppages is GOAT who is a metre eater & causes one on ones for our forwards cos he gets the defence on the back foot.

Furthermore, it appears that we haven’t got the right makeup of defensive vs offensive midfielders attending stoppages. Too often the opposition have torched us out of the middle. Dunstan & Steele are defensive minded players & I think we’d benefit by rotating them more often.

For all Steven’s pressure acts & tackles he doesn’t appear to hold the ball in/cause turnovers often enough, which is likely because he’s a small midfielder that lacks the strength & power of the beforementioned. Armo’s back is cooked & too often is out of the contest after one effort. I don’t think it’s sustainable to have him as one of our main midfielders. He’s better suited as a pinch hitter imo.

I think it’s obvious that some of our key players are out of form & not being utilised effectively. The coaching team has a lot of work to do because there doesn’t appear to be a quick fix. We’ve got major problems all over the park.