Opinion Gary Ablett Senior

[SJ]

No, I don't agree.
Under the AA selection criteria for teams chosen between 1953 & 1988 Ablett snr was chosen 0 times.
Under the AA selection criteria for teams chosen between 1991 & 2013 Ablett snr was chosen 4 times.

In the years when an All Australian team has been chosen, there is only one AA team so naturally a player can only be selected once for that year.

Don't be duped (however innocently) into diluting career records of the past simply to glorify achievements of those of a more modern era.

Heavens, if we fudge the terminology too much we'll end up with ridiculous situations like the following hypothetical: "Gerard Healy was All-Australian three times in 1986." Huh ?
(1 genuine AA, 1 VFL team of year, 1 International Rules...or if he played 2 or 3 IR does that make him 4 or 5 AA for the year ?)

I agree exactly with what you are saying. But then can you say Geelong has won nine premierships in the AFL?

 

[Partridge]

It's nice that there's a bit of Gazza reminiscing going on in the footy world at the moment. I suppose Cats fans do it often but it's nice he's not as easily forgotten as others can be as new eras come along. Thankfully we have some reasonable footage.

I'm not sure anyone has put together as good a finals series as Gazza's '89, or at least the last 3 games. '89 was probably his physical peak in terms of weight (around 90kg then), fitness, pace, power & leaping and putting it all together at the right time, vs the permanent FF frame of around 100kg.

The 89 prelim was the best of those finals, probably one of the best individual finals games ever played. I put all his play involvements in that game up on YouTube a while back but took it down, might pop it back up again when i get a chance. He really put on a footballing exhibition that day. One bit that never makes the highlights tapes was where he launches a torp from about 70-75m I'd say after Commetti joked he was too far out to score, and as the torp comes back down to earth Billy appears to stop it with the back of his head on the goal line, costing him a goal

I'm absolutely convinced that it was the best finals series ever played by anyone. The previous goals record was Ron Todd's 23 in 1939, followed by Bartlett's 21 in 1980. He comfortably eclipsed that with 27. Even with the extra game in the Qualifying Final his final 3 games yielded 24 goals. But the numbers only tell half the tale. It was the way he did it. Younger fans don't realise he did things in that finals series that we'd never seen before.

He had taken one-handed marks before, but then took a brilliant one against Grinter (in the wet) and nailed the kick from 50m in the First Semi-Final. I'd never seen anyone run around the man on the mark before until he did it to Hamilton in the Prelim. I'd never seen anyone take the ball out of the ruck until he did it in the Grand Final.

His weight was absolutely perfect as you say. Had amazing strength but still had his speed and agility. Unfortunately I suspect they let him put on too much muscle in his final years and that cost him some pace. These days they'd do it so much better.

 

[Partridge]

Checking back through the lists I think there are eight...

All Australian = 4 (1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)

VFL Team of Year = 3 (1984, 1986, 1989)
AFL Team of Year = 1 (1990)

so in summary, describing career of Gary Ablett snr, he was chosen All Australian four times,
and chosen four times in other teams of the year.

I have one obvious question - how the hell did he not get picked in 1985 and 1988? He kicked 82 goals from the half forward flank in both years? And in sides that didn't play finals! In 1985 he came third in the Coleman.

 

[Cosmic Energy]

I'm absolutely convinced that it was the best finals series ever played by anyone. The previous goals record was Ron Todd's 23 in 1939, followed by Bartlett's 21 in 1980. He comfortably eclipsed that with 27. Even with the extra game in the Qualifying Final his final 3 games yielded 24 goals. But the numbers only tell half the tale. It was the way he did it. Younger fans don't realise he did things in that finals series that we'd never seen before.

He had taken one-handed marks before, but then took a brilliant one against Grinter (in the wet) and nailed the kick from 50m in the First Semi-Final. I'd never seen anyone run around the man on the mark before until he did it to Hamilton in the Prelim. I'd never seen anyone take the ball out of the ruck until he did it in the Grand Final.

His weight was absolutely perfect as you say. Had amazing strength but still had his speed and agility. Unfortunately I suspect they let him put on too much muscle in his final years and that cost him some pace. These days they'd do it so much better.

I suppose the extra bulk particularly from 1993 onwards (at least 5kg heavier) suited the grappling one-on-one style which he started using more and more at full forward, but probably didn't allow him to play anywhere else really for any length of time. He was still pretty agile in '93 but not quite the same. I suppose now they'd manage his workload better too to have him flying for the finals, Brad Ottens style Might have cost him 100 goals a year in one of those years, and a few thousand supporters through the gate too I recall he seemed pretty stuffed by the '94 & '95 GFs, obviously in 1995 he was injured in the lead up to the finals. He still played some handy finals post '89.

 

[Berserker26]

I think a consensus has been reached - at least in Geelong fans' minds - that he isn't the best player we ever had.

Very very clever!

I see what you did there you sly dog, you've taken the overwhelming consensus by not only the cats supporters but the overall football public/media/past players and current players and, for fun, turned it around to say he isn't the best we ever had (or the league).

A little bit like if I said Michael Jordan wasn't the best basketball player ever because he took too many games off (when he retired then came back).

Hilarious stuff and keep it up!

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

Checking back through the lists I think there are eight...

All Australian = 4 (1992, 1993, 1994, 1995)

VFL Team of Year = 3 (1984, 1986, 1989)
AFL Team of Year = 1 (1990)

so in summary, describing career of Gary Ablett snr, he was chosen All Australian four times,
and chosen four times in other teams of the year.

Show me another player that is even close.

The bloke didn't even begin in earnest until he was 23....he was a poor trainer, an enigma and rogue, yet when he turned up to a game he would do things that modern players who practice since there early teens can't. He could take hangers, contested marks, body marks, kick 50m plus with either foot and snap to equal effect both sides. His pace was phenomenal as was his agility...yet he had one of the toughest bodies in the comp and could put anyone down if required. Then, to top it all off he retires at peak of his powers only to come back and reinvent himself as the most consistent and successfull full forward of all time averaging 5.5 goals a game when aged over 31..

FFS, there is not anyone close to being able to match the freakishness and ability of the great one.

Quite honestly, its embarrasing when people try to argue a Lance Franklin type is his equal.....buddy hasn't even registered a kick on the opposite side of his body and he has 15+ coaches looking after him every day.

Yes, you would pick a Leigh Matthews or Ted Whitten before him as more valuable to a team...but you can go get farked if you think there is a more complete physical football talent to ever play the game

Don't know the bloke, don't want to, but his football prowess, his mystery and his story are precisely why I love this game....I'm just a happy man knowing I grew up following and appreciating the greatest.

 

[SJ]

Show me another player that is even close.

The bloke didn't even begin in earnest until he was 23....he was a poor trainer, an enigma and rogue, yet when he turned up to a game he would do things that modern players who practice since there early teens can't. He could take hangers, contested marks, body marks, kick 50m plus with either foot and snap to equal effect both sides. His pace was phenomenal as was his agility...yet he had one of the toughest bodies in the comp and could put anyone down if required. Then, to top it all off he retires at peak of his powers only to come back and reinvent himself as the most consistent and successfull full forward of all time averaging 5.5 goals a game when aged over 31..

FFS, there is not anyone close to being able to match the freakishness and ability of the great one.

Quite honestly, its embarrasing when people try to argue a Lance Franklin type is his equal.....buddy hasn't even registered a kick on the opposite side of his body and he has 15+ coaches looking after him every day.

Yes, you would pick a Leigh Matthews or Ted Whitten before him as more valuable to a team...but you can go get farked if you think there is a more complete physical football talent to ever play the game

Don't know the bloke, don't want to, but his football prowess, his mystery and his story are precisely why I love this game....I'm just a happy man knowing I grew up following and appreciating the greatest.

Great post.

Elite players often are referred to by their 'tricks' - outstanding skills in certain areas of the game. Greats of the game might have two or three of these. Ablett had eight to ten.

 

[David the Cat]

Certainly the best I have ever seen...and I have seen a few...

At times, beyond belief.

 

[Partridge]

Show me another player that is even close.

The bloke didn't even begin in earnest until he was 23....he was a poor trainer, an enigma and rogue, yet when he turned up to a game he would do things that modern players who practice since there early teens can't. He could take hangers, contested marks, body marks, kick 50m plus with either foot and snap to equal effect both sides. His pace was phenomenal as was his agility...yet he had one of the toughest bodies in the comp and could put anyone down if required. Then, to top it all off he retires at peak of his powers only to come back and reinvent himself as the most consistent and successfull full forward of all time averaging 5.5 goals a game when aged over 31..

FFS, there is not anyone close to being able to match the freakishness and ability of the great one.

Great post.

Still think the "poor trainer" tag is exaggerated. From what I've read, it was always applied to pre-season training, and even then before Blight arrived. Ablett himself said after a few blistering games in 1985 the comment was "and he's not even fit etc.". He pointed out that although he hadn't done all the pre-season, he had been doing plenty of physical exercise to keep himself in shape. Very different era then, and he wasn't alone.

I've yet to hear any story of him not training under Blight, so I suspect it's yet another legend that has grown with the telling.

 

[manboob]

Stephen McBurney reflects on his career saying Gary Ablett Snr was ‘scary' on the field.
http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st...ary-on-the-field/story-fnelctok-1226696312230

 

[David the Cat]

A pity about the photo tho...the aftermath of a terrible decision by McBurney to gift St Kilda another goal before half time in the 2009 GF.

Good umpire though....good luck to him.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I was around to see all of Polly's Cat games, Goggin, Lords, Marshall, Walker, Newman, Turner... down to GAJ
IMHO, Ablett snr = #1. GAJ = #2. Farmer = #3. They are all amazing, and I'd bet strongly as a non betting man, that we would easily have the BEST TOP 3, by a mile.

This is probably not the place, but I reckon you'd get a serious argument there from several clubs.

As for ranking players (and I'm only speaking from my experience here) I'm not even sure that having seen them all is always enough. By the time I was old enough to go to Geelong games, Senior's career was nearly halfway over. So yeah, I saw him on TV, went to several games where he was playing, cheered for him, listened to the commentators go apeshit at some of the things he was doing, but since from the first game I saw of him to the last I was either too young to play myself, or just getting started, a lot of the things that he did didn't really register with me as to how amazing they were. I mean, I knew he was our best player, especially as I grew a little older and got a better understanding of just how bloody good he was, but at the time, I'm not sure that I considered him that much better than Couch, Hocking, Bairstow and everyone else. That probably sounds ridiculous now, but I bet there'd be other people around my age who were the same. Do you even know who the best players in the team are just by watching the game as a kid, or do you rely on what you hear from the people that take you to the games and the commentators on TV?

Since I'm pretty close to Junior's vintage, I was able to appreciate the nuances of his game that much more. It was easier to understand just how skillful he had to be to pull off some of the stuff he was doing. And I wonder if it's the same for people who were old enough to see Polly, but were a similar age as I was when I was watching Senior.

 

[manboob]

I never saw Polly but have watched the two Ablett's I can tell you that there is daylight between Snr and Jnr - all the Geelong supporting commentators would agree. Snr's best was otherworldly. Also I reakon Snr would have won half a dozen a games off his own boot a year... if that's a measure of anything.

 

[FredLeDeux]

I never saw Polly but have watched the two Ablett's I can tell you that there is daylight between Snr and Jnr - all the Geelong supporting commentators would agree. Snr's best was otherworldly. Also I reakon Snr would have won half a dozen a games off his own boot a year... if that's a measure of anything.

You can only measure blokes from different eras by how good they were in comparison to their contemporaries. Polly and Gazza are still well clear. In my opinion.

 

[Seeds]

I'm absolutely convinced that it was the best finals series ever played by anyone. The previous goals record was Ron Todd's 23 in 1939, followed by Bartlett's 21 in 1980. He comfortably eclipsed that with 27. Even with the extra game in the Qualifying Final his final 3 games yielded 24 goals. But the numbers only tell half the tale. It was the way he did it. Younger fans don't realise he did things in that finals series that we'd never seen before.

He had taken one-handed marks before, but then took a brilliant one against Grinter (in the wet) and nailed the kick from 50m in the First Semi-Final. I'd never seen anyone run around the man on the mark before until he did it to Hamilton in the Prelim. I'd never seen anyone take the ball out of the ruck until he did it in the Grand Final.

His weight was absolutely perfect as you say. Had amazing strength but still had his speed and agility. Unfortunately I suspect they let him put on too much muscle in his final years and that cost him some pace. These days they'd do it so much better.

I think your memory is a bit selective. Ablett took the ball twice out of the ruck in the 89 prelim the week before. He missed one and think he may of got the other.

That 89 series was something else. I would say in that 89 finals series alone, Ablett had a more exciting 5 minutes highlight package then what the likes of Carey and Lockett had for their whole careers.

 

[Partridge]

I think your memory is a bit selective. Ablett took the ball twice out of the ruck in the 89 prelim the week before. He missed one and think he may of got the other.

That 89 series was something else. I would say in that 89 finals series alone, Ablett had a more exciting 5 minutes highlight package then what the likes of Carey and Lockett had for their whole careers.

You could do a highlights package from just the Prelimary Final. His marks, goals and all around game were better than 99% of players ever reach. Very thankful I was there. I'll never forget diehard Essendon fans in front of me applauding (as the game wore on) and looking at me with open mouths after every goal or mark.

 

[dazbroncos]

I never saw Polly but have watched the two Ablett's I can tell you that there is daylight between Snr and Jnr - all the Geelong supporting commentators would agree. Snr's best was otherworldly. Also I reakon Snr would have won half a dozen a games off his own boot a year... if that's a measure of anything.

and put an extra 10k bums on seats a week and drawn more non geelong or other team supporters to Geelong games than anyone on record...

Go Catters

 

[Partridge]

This is probably not the place, but I reckon you'd get a serious argument there from several clubs.

As for ranking players (and I'm only speaking from my experience here) I'm not even sure that having seen them all is always enough. By the time I was old enough to go to Geelong games, Senior's career was nearly halfway over. So yeah, I saw him on TV, went to several games where he was playing, cheered for him, listened to the commentators go apeshit at some of the things he was doing, but since from the first game I saw of him to the last I was either too young to play myself, or just getting started, a lot of the things that he did didn't really register with me as to how amazing they were. I mean, I knew he was our best player, especially as I grew a little older and got a better understanding of just how bloody good he was, but at the time, I'm not sure that I considered him that much better than Couch, Hocking, Bairstow and everyone else. That probably sounds ridiculous now, but I bet there'd be other people around my age who were the same. Do you even know who the best players in the team are just by watching the game as a kid, or do you rely on what you hear from the people that take you to the games and the commentators on TV?

Since I'm pretty close to Junior's vintage, I was able to appreciate the nuances of his game that much more. It was easier to understand just how skillful he had to be to pull off some of the stuff he was doing. And I wonder if it's the same for people who were old enough to see Polly, but were a similar age as I was when I was watching Senior.

Great post.

I was a little more fortunate. I was 14 the first year I started going every single week - which was 1986. I saw some games in 1984 and 1985 but after that it was more or less everything in Victoria. So I was just old enough - albeit very impressionable - to appreciate it a little more.

The first time I thought Ablett was the best player in the competition was late 1984, when he kicked 3 late goals against Richmond at the MCG and we won a close one (there is footage of a left foot snap and a torp that Jacko shepherds through). By 1985 I thought he was better again, and after I started going and seeing him every week there wasn't any doubt at all.

It wasn't just his output - averaging 4 goals a game from a half forward flank - but how he did things. For younger fans, if you combined the strength of Hawkins (pound for pound), the agility of Smedts and the burst of speed Motlop has you're getting some idea of what he was like. And he read the ball in flight better than any player I've ever seen. Then you add very real football smarts (say Steve Johnson but without the stupidity) and a genuine mean streak. Although I maintain he wasn't anywhere near as dirty as Garry Hocking or Damian Bourke.

He did the basics brilliantly - he led hard, he always marked the ball in front of his face, he rarely fell over, and his kicking on his left foot for then (or now really) was ridiculous. You just felt when he really wanted the ball nothing could stop him.

To me it wasn't that he just was our most consistent and dynamic player (and he was). It was also that he did things no one else could do, and the gap between his best and everyone else's was enormous. I met Richard Osborne through work when I was in my mid-20s and he said he thought Ablett was so far ahead of the rest there wasn't any comparison. I agree.

 

[footscore]

Richard Osborne

Very underrated player that bloke.

 

[Vdubs]

Great post.

I was a little more fortunate. I was 14 the first year I started going every single week - which was 1986. I saw some games in 1984 and 1985 but after that it was more or less everything in Victoria. So I was just old enough - albeit very impressionable - to appreciate it a little more.

The first time I thought Ablett was the best player in the competition was late 1984, when he kicked 3 late goals against Richmond at the MCG and we won a close one (there is footage of a left foot snap and a torp that Jacko shepherds through). By 1985 I thought he was better again, and after I started going and seeing him every week there wasn't any doubt at all.

It wasn't just his output - averaging 4 goals a game from a half forward flank - but how he did things. For younger fans, if you combined the strength of Hawkins (pound for pound), the agility of Smedts and the burst of speed Motlop has you're getting some idea of what he was like. And he read the ball in flight better than any player I've ever seen. Then you add very real football smarts (say Steve Johnson but without the stupidity) and a genuine mean streak. Although I maintain he wasn't anywhere near as dirty as Garry Hocking or Damian Bourke.

He did the basics brilliantly - he led hard, he always marked the ball in front of his face, he rarely fell over, and his kicking on his left foot for then (or now really) was ridiculous. You just felt when he really wanted the ball nothing could stop him.

To me it wasn't that he just was our most consistent and dynamic player (and he was). It was also that he did things no one else could do, and the gap between his best and everyone else's was enormous. I met Richard Osborne through work when I was in my mid-20s and he said he thought Ablett was so far ahead of the rest there wasn't any comparison. I agree.

Brilliant summary.
Greg Williams, Rob Walls, Nicky Winmar just to name a few, said exactly that too.
That Richmond game you noted, Mike Turner who was captain, told us that he recognised only Ablett could rescue us that day, and suggested to him to pull the finger out, and , literally, BANG.

 

[dazbroncos]

Great post.

I was a little more fortunate. I was 14 the first year I started going every single week - which was 1986. I saw some games in 1984 and 1985 but after that it was more or less everything in Victoria. So I was just old enough - albeit very impressionable - to appreciate it a little more.

The first time I thought Ablett was the best player in the competition was late 1984, when he kicked 3 late goals against Richmond at the MCG and we won a close one (there is footage of a left foot snap and a torp that Jacko shepherds through). By 1985 I thought he was better again, and after I started going and seeing him every week there wasn't any doubt at all.

It wasn't just his output - averaging 4 goals a game from a half forward flank - but how he did things. For younger fans, if you combined the strength of Hawkins (pound for pound), the agility of Smedts and the burst of speed Motlop has you're getting some idea of what he was like. And he read the ball in flight better than any player I've ever seen. Then you add very real football smarts (say Steve Johnson but without the stupidity) and a genuine mean streak. Although I maintain he wasn't anywhere near as dirty as Garry Hocking or Damian Bourke.

He did the basics brilliantly - he led hard, he always marked the ball in front of his face, he rarely fell over, and his kicking on his left foot for then (or now really) was ridiculous. You just felt when he really wanted the ball nothing could stop him.

To me it wasn't that he just was our most consistent and dynamic player (and he was). It was also that he did things no one else could do, and the gap between his best and everyone else's was enormous. I met Richard Osborne through work when I was in my mid-20s and he said he thought Ablett was so far ahead of the rest there wasn't any comparison. I agree.

This is a great point. I saw plenty of GAS and I don't recall him hardly ever going to ground. His core and balance was incredible.

Go Catters

 

[Vdubs]

This is a great point. I saw plenty of GAS and I don't recall him hardly ever going to ground. His core and balance was incredible.

Go Catters

True, and when he did gtg, he was taking an explosive diving mark.

 

[dazbroncos]

True, and when he did gtg, he was taking an explosive diving mark.

the times he did go to ground, I seem to recall him chasing ball and he would slide and or pick it up, but if he did hit the ground his recovery was always better than his opponent. Rarely did he get up second...

Go Catters

 

[SJ]

Great post.

I was a little more fortunate. I was 14 the first year I started going every single week - which was 1986. I saw some games in 1984 and 1985 but after that it was more or less everything in Victoria. So I was just old enough - albeit very impressionable - to appreciate it a little more.

The first time I thought Ablett was the best player in the competition was late 1984, when he kicked 3 late goals against Richmond at the MCG and we won a close one (there is footage of a left foot snap and a torp that Jacko shepherds through). By 1985 I thought he was better again, and after I started going and seeing him every week there wasn't any doubt at all.

It wasn't just his output - averaging 4 goals a game from a half forward flank - but how he did things. For younger fans, if you combined the strength of Hawkins (pound for pound), the agility of Smedts and the burst of speed Motlop has you're getting some idea of what he was like. And he read the ball in flight better than any player I've ever seen. Then you add very real football smarts (say Steve Johnson but without the stupidity) and a genuine mean streak. Although I maintain he wasn't anywhere near as dirty as Garry Hocking or Damian Bourke.

He did the basics brilliantly - he led hard, he always marked the ball in front of his face, he rarely fell over, and his kicking on his left foot for then (or now really) was ridiculous. You just felt when he really wanted the ball nothing could stop him.

To me it wasn't that he just was our most consistent and dynamic player (and he was). It was also that he did things no one else could do, and the gap between his best and everyone else's was enormous. I met Richard Osborne through work when I was in my mid-20s and he said he thought Ablett was so far ahead of the rest there wasn't any comparison. I agree.

Great stuff.

He had the lot, really. There is a goal in one of footscore 's videos I always shake my head at, when he belts through a 60m drop punt on the left foot. I mean no one can do that, even now.

 

[vinum coupe]

I wonder if there is footage of gazza in the night game where he kicked the ball off the ground from outside 50 and it never touched the ground again until it had gone through the goals.

lol

Freak.