List Mgmt. Geelong Premiership, why not? Drafting utilities, that's why.

[El Dubya]

Our midfield lacks depth, last year it was held together with two stars and a few cameo appearances. Next year we'll have three stars, but that doesn't bridge the gap between us and the sides that comprehensively beat us in finals. I think there are two issues our gameplan, which I think is selfish and one dimensional, and our drafting, which consistently ignores what we actually need. We consistently recruit players who are kind of good at a lot of things but not great at anything. The in 06 we drafted an absolute pure midfielder who is likely to be in our next team of the century.

In 2007 we drafted Harry Taylor with our first pick. The perfect pick for the time, a brilliant key defender who is now potentially in the twilight of his career, but still comfortably the second best KPD in the game. Tick.

2008 we pick Mitch Brown, who was kind of forward, kind of back and ended up being kind of nothing. Cross.

2009 Dan Menzel. Hard to say what he could have been, but looks like a serviceable forward. Tick.

2010 Billie Smedts, another utility type, small forward, wing, running half back, absolute moron. HUGE CROSS.

2011 Joel Hamling. Hard to judge, but an undersized key defender starved of opportunites. Question mark.

2012 Jackson Thurlow. Hampered by injury at times, but another utility not holding down a spot. Question mark.

2013 Jarrad Jansen. Wells drafted a midfielder and it didn't work out. Cross.

2014 Nakia Cockatoo. Controversial, because he could be gun, but he hasn't done much yet. Question mark.

2015 Ryan Gardner. Too early to tell. Question mark.

2016 Brandon Parfitt. Looks like a tick.

I know some of these are later picks because we've traded our higher picks, and we can't access the top ten in the draft because we consistently make finals, but maybe that's also the issue. Maybe we need to stop trading out of the draft for potatoes like Stanley and actually get somebody who will help us win a flag in five years time.

With all the buzz around season 2018 I think we're in for another massive disappointment in September, and I think if you look deep down you know that you are too. So why?

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Biggest myth circulating.

All of Duncan, Dangerfield and Selwood are A-Graders.

And now Ablett. Menegola was 6th in our B&F and Guthrie finished even higher the year before. The midfield is our strength.

Our system was the reason we didn't win the premiership.

 

[El Dubya]

Biggest myth circulating.

All of Duncan, Dangerfield and Selwood are A-Graders.

And now Ablett. Menegola was 6th in our B&F and Guthrie finished even higher the year before. The midfield is our strength.

Our system was the reason we didn't win the premiership.

I question whether Duncs is an A grader, but he had an outstanding year. I don't think our midfield is defensive enough at time, but what system do you think is the failing?

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

I question whether Duncs is an A grader, but he had an outstanding year. I don't think our midfield is defensive enough at time, but what system do you think is the failing?

We overuse the handball. I've said it time and time again but it doesn't stand up under immense pressure.

Take a look at the stats from the Sydney final where we kicked the ball more and were more direct.

 

[El Dubya]

I much prefer when our mids kick it, because of our small forward line it gives them the opportunity to get that chaos ball going and hit the scoreboard. With only one key forward the patient handball and set up game doesn't work, Tomahawk is playing on two men half the time, and even when he isn't his hands aren't what they were a few years ago.

 

[year of the cat]

We overuse the handball. I've said it time and time again but it doesn't stand up under immense pressure.

Take a look at the stats from the Sydney final where we kicked the ball more and were more direct.

Bingo.

 

[Deep]

I question whether Duncs is an A grader, but he had an outstanding year. I don't think our midfield is defensive enough at time, but what system do you think is the failing?

I'm not sure you could say Joel Selwood is elite if Mitch Duncan isn't. You're only as good as your last year.

 

[El Dubya]

I'm not sure you could say Joel Selwood is elite if Mitch Duncan isn't. You're only as good as your last year.

Nah, runs on the board count.

 

[catempire]

2008 we pick Mitch Brown, who was kind of forward, kind of back and ended up being kind of nothing. Cross.

2009 Dan Menzel. Hard to say what he could have been, but looks like a serviceable forward. Tick.

2010 Billie Smedts, another utility type, small forward, wing, running half back, absolute moron. HUGE CROSS.

2011 Joel Hamling. Hard to judge, but an undersized key defender starved of opportunites. Question mark.

2012 Jackson Thurlow. Hampered by injury at times, but another utility not holding down a spot. Question mark.

2013 Jarrad Jansen. Wells drafted a midfielder and it didn't work out. Cross.

Bloody good effort to be where we are given those picks.

I don’t think midfield depth is the issue. I really hate the gameplan and it needs a complete overhaul. Depth more generally is a problem. We had 8 debutants in 2017, several of whom were not AFL ready and it showed. We have lost depth every year for the past few years which I think is part of the reason we are going to the draft this year instead of looking at top line trade targets (Ablett aside).

 

[Rondog]

More positional + less utilities = improvement

 

[Turbocat]

I question whether Duncs is an A grader, but he had an outstanding year. I don't think our midfield is defensive enough at time, but what system do you think is the failing?

If you question Duncan is an A grader..id think its because it suits your argument. Duncan is an A grade type player to mine unless you only classify A grade as AA type players.

 

[cynical]

problem is poor structures that dont hold up at the MCG

backline has been too tall for about 5 years
midfield is one dimensional, just inside mids, not enough elite ball users
you cant have crabs like Scooter, Blicavs and Menegola all in the same team
rucks Smith is just an average ruck, we dont have a good mobile ruck/forward either (stanley is a no1 ruck, blicavs is just crap)
forwardline havent had a CHF since pods, lack of good smalls and players who kick clutch goals besides motlop

we have a heap of holes in our list and instead of dropping down and filling them we add more b grade talent and continue with terrible structures

have to look at game theory to provide optimal structures that provide the least amount of exploitation and in turn minimal variance in results

to put that simply - you need to look at how we are exploitable and change things to be less exploitable (game theory optimal)

eg too tall backline

works well at KP because there is no room on the wings for outside players to break away and hit up moving targets (more of a congested style play)

however this is extremely exploitable on bigger grounds as those outside players now have space to move and can hit moving targets who are quicker than our lumbering defenders, offensively the tall defenders cant move the ball on as quickly or as well as smalls so our offensive transitions are poor

to become less exploitable in this area we go back to a traditional 2 KPD, 1 3rd tall (who has pace)3 small defender structure

another example is our midfield, we have too many inside players, they get exploited by high pressure teams (causing a lot of turnovers), we become less exploitable by playing more outside players (who have better skills under pressure)

now either the club is completely ignorant of game theory or they are just happy with the financial success of finishing top 4 (despite having no chance of winning the flag)

 

[Ricketz]

Our midfield lacks depth, last year it was held together with two stars and a few cameo appearances. Next year we'll have three stars, but that doesn't bridge the gap between us and the sides that comprehensively beat us in finals.

Menegola, S Selwood and Mitch Duncan say "Hello, friend!"

From what I recall, during Paddy's suspension and Joel's injury, they all stood up when required. And they weren't cameos either, all three had pretty consistent years when they were on the park. I didn't really get past this paragraph, because your premise appears to be false.

 

[Turbocat]

We overuse the handball. I've said it time and time again but it doesn't stand up under immense pressure.

Take a look at the stats from the Sydney final where we kicked the ball more and were more direct.

I could debate with you on the over use of handball .. I basically agree with you but I think its a consequences of the mind set. dont mess up pass it too who a teammate etc...to me its a symptom of of placing to greater emphasis on possession retention and too little emphasis on trusting the next players to win his contest.

The quickest way to move the ball is to kick it , then hard aggressive running at speed using handball( its always been a Catempire bug bear about legspeed) but I do think now with such a contested game that the burst speed from a contest and players around the ball is more important than it has ever been ..but the worst way to move the ball quick is the back foot kicks to players across the backline , almost just building their stats tally and handballing to guys under pressure at little pace ..

I agree certainly agree handballing under pressure , when tense as in a big games or finals is very vulnerable to failure .. we struggled even with our best teams and we are not as good now as then , we really struggle to absorb pressure . Ablett was (not sure if still is) classic at creating space for a team mate by draw , absorb and get the ball on... but he also did it at pace a lot of the time..it forces opponents to hurry and be unsettled. The Sydney final .. the Swans looked cooked.. did we kick it more long , where we allowed to kick it long and pick out team mates. Not sure.

 

[El Dubya]

More positional + less utilities = improvement

My thinking exactly. Recruit pure positional players, like Harry and Joel.

 

[Vdubs]

No flag because under intense pressure we have repeatedly been shown to wilt. If we come out hunting and exert that pressure, we can win, but it seems to work best at KP.
Beating Swans at the G gives hope, unless they were just off and stuffed.
Pressure.

 

[cynical]

a utility has a few uses

1 - to cover injury to avoid being exploited hugely, eg injury during a game (this is extremely unlikely and not worth planning for)
2 - to cover or expose a potential weakness eg if you play an extremely small backline and a KPF is dominating you might send back this "utility" to cover and viceversa

the only ways i see that you could fill a major exploit with 1 utility player would be in the ruck, or as an extra tall defender/loose man in defence

injury to a ruck is extremely unlikely so its not really necessary to have cover, but a tall defender/forward who can potentially ruck is a bonus, not something you'd plan for specifically

a loose man in defence can be filled by 1 player, usually an experienced midfielder, dont need to recruit this

a 3rd tall defender is generally a utility who can play on a tall or smalls

to sum up, having a tall who can ruck is useful in an emergency (but unnecessary) and having someone as a 3rd tall defender(eg stewart) is generally all you need as far as utilities

 

[cynical]

the reason we overuse handball is because we have too many inside players

good outside players can make space and hit targets with hand or foot and give the next person time (sam mitchell was the best at this)

inside players dont have the skills to hit targets under pressure thus the next link in the chain is under more pressure

eg you'd like J Selwood handballing to Duncan who passes to Motlop who kicks to the advantage of a forward

vs J Selwood handballing to Blicavs who handballs behind Menegola who kicks it long into the forwardline where a defender marks infront of Hawkins

we just dont have enough good outside players to win a flag so we better fast track whoever we have/or get

 

[Two Planks]

Richmond changed their thinking this year and just went forward no matter what. None of the sideways and backwards garbage that they had done in the past.

 

[Spazz Cat]

the reason we overuse handball is because we have too many inside players

good outside players can make space and hit targets with hand or foot and give the next person time (sam mitchell was the best at this)

inside players dont have the skills to hit targets under pressure thus the next link in the chain is under more pressure

eg you'd like J Selwood handballing to Duncan who passes to Motlop who kicks to the advantage of a forward

vs J Selwood handballing to Blicavs who handballs behind Menegola who kicks it long into the forwardline where a defender marks infront of Hawkins

we just dont have enough good outside players to win a flag so we better fast track whoever we have/or get

Spot on. A massive problem for us.
Also if a player runs really hard to make space theough the middle a player such as Menegola,Blitz ,Scooter can't take that risk of kicking from the wing to the middle over a couple of players heads in case of a bad turnover.
Therefore we miss out and hold up and kick to a contest or just go around the outside.

 

[Vdubs]

I question whether Duncs is an A grader, but he had an outstanding year. I don't think our midfield is defensive enough at time, but what system do you think is the failing?

If you question Duncan is an A grader..id think its because it suits your argument. Duncan is an A grade type player to mine unless you only classify A grade as AA type players.

I still have trouble rating Duncan as a true A grader. But that is tough when we have Danger, Selwood and now GAJ. He is just not in that league. And there are so many good mids in the comp from each team that are just ahead of him, imo. But objectively, maybe this year he has reached A grade status.

 

[PhatBoy]

We have a lot of issues.

Midfield is not one.

Any team in the competition would be happy with our centre rotation and that includes Smith.

He wouldn’t be good enough to do a Gawn and turn an ok middle into a decent one but with what we have, he’s doing a fine job.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

I could debate with you on the over use of handball .. I basically agree with you but I think its a consequences of the mind set. dont mess up pass it too who a teammate etc...to me its a symptom of of placing to greater emphasis on possession retention and too little emphasis on trusting the next players to win his contest. ...

The risk and reward philosophy is long dead. So has skilling up players so they could exploit such a mentality. Been amazed at the kms some of our most skilled players chalk up in a game. I'm wondering what that is about.

 

[El Dubya]

a utility has a few uses

1 - to cover injury to avoid being exploited hugely, eg injury during a game (this is extremely unlikely and not worth planning for)
2 - to cover or expose a potential weakness eg if you play an extremely small backline and a KPF is dominating you might send back this "utility" to cover and viceversa

the only ways i see that you could fill a major exploit with 1 utility player would be in the ruck, or as an extra tall defender/loose man in defence

injury to a ruck is extremely unlikely so its not really necessary to have cover, but a tall defender/forward who can potentially ruck is a bonus, not something you'd plan for specifically

a loose man in defence can be filled by 1 player, usually an experienced midfielder, dont need to recruit this

a 3rd tall defender is generally a utility who can play on a tall or smalls

to sum up, having a tall who can ruck is useful in an emergency (but unnecessary) and having someone as a 3rd tall defender(eg stewart) is generally all you need as far as utilities

The only utility we've dragged that's turned out to be a genuine gun is Mackie.

 

[Vdubs]

We have a lot of issues.

Midfield is not one.

Any team in the competition would be happy with our centre rotation and that includes Smith.

He wouldn’t be good enough to do a Gawn and turn an ok middle into a decent one but with what we have, he’s doing a fine job.

Agree completely.
I like Smith- very honest and skilled, and had quite a few scalps this year