And its probably even less likely that he'll keep it to 2 books given what happened with Dance.
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George R R Martin
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And its probably even less likely that he'll keep it to 2 books given what happened with Dance.
Dance was supposedly nearly finished 5 years ago, but his lack of experience/ability in handling a story of this size and complex has led to many mistakes and rewrites. Half the time he gives the impression he knows where he wants the story to go but doesn't quite know how to get it there.
Nobody doubts his ability to write well, but his lack of experience with plot structure on something this difficult has virtually crippled progress as he chops, changes and rewrites large sections because he gets to a point where something simply does not work.
I am not disappointed it is taking him so long, I am disappointed he is doing so much other stuff and only working on ASoIaF part time.
Given his age, significant health risks and the difficulties he has had since commencing Feast I find it unbelievable that he would...
a) spend as much time on other projects as he has, and
b) take a whole 2 months off without writing a single word
Like I said, I very much doubt he will complete the series before the grim reaper takes him away. I sincerely hope he does as I love the world and characters he has created, but unless his priorites and work ethic changes soon I cannot see it happening.
You keep refering to experience.
How is he supposed to have experience handling a story of this magnitude, when nothing like this has been done before? I can't think of another living author that would have experience of handling a story this vast and complex.
Aside from that though, you are right. It would be nice to see him focus purely on it. But maybe he has reasons for his breaks and tardiness, I would imagine it would be very draining to put something like this together. Maybe he needs the breaks so he doesn't burn out and lose the passion.
I just reckon we need to give him the benefit of the doubt. The only way I will be dissapointed is if he somehow botches the story from here (or kicks the bucket). I don't care how long I have to wait, I just want it completed to the best of his ability.
By experience I mean experience in writing novels. He cut his teeth writing for TV and writing short stories. He is actually inexperienced in writing novels, never mind multiple book series.
FWIW I think there are plenty of authors around today can handle something of this scope, particularly in the fantasy/sci fi genre, purely because they have spent many years refining their art. The more you do something the better you get at it.
Whether they have the imagination and eloquence to create such rich worlds and characters is another matter altogether, but don't kid yourself that Martin is unique in having to handle size and complexity.
Just look at what Brandon Sanderson has done with WoT... which IMO is much larger, richer and more complex than the ASoIaF universe. It took Jordan's extraordinary vision and talent to create such an incredibly rich and diverse universe, but once established there are quite a number of talented (and experienced) authors that are able to complete what is a horrendously large and complex story.
FWIW there is a chance Sanderson will complete the WoT prelude books and another trilogy set in the same world... all of which Jordan left extensive notes on. Brandon has said he doesn't really want to do them, but the prospect of someone else doing them would force his hand.
I have read the first 3 WOT books and unless the plot suddenly gets dramatically more complicated, it is not in the same league as ASOFAI.
All that I have read basically accounts to an adventure/quest similar to dozens of stories beforehand. Don't get me wrong, I am not having a crack at it, I am just saying that you cannot compare it to Martin. One is incredibly complex multi threaded plot, the other is an adventure that sometimes follows two/three chararcters similar to LOTR. The plot is often as simple as Ran needs to get to X and destroy X while X is trying to stop him.
Kaiser, you have absolutely no idea... for starters try reading the rest of WoT before making such sweeping, inaccurate and ignorant statements.
ASoIaF is complicated but no more than other fantasy/sci fi works out there ATM. WoT's scope, world, history and plot is deeper and more complicated than Martin's... but of course you know better having only read three books.
Martin's books & characters have more political scheming, but if you were more well read you would know they are no more complicated than other series out there. If you want complicated try the Peter Hamilton Night's Dawn series.
This still doesn't change the fact that it is Martin's lack of skill in handling his large and complex story that has been the major reason why he has only released one book in 10 years.
Did you know he wrote a large chunk of Feast before abandoning it and virtually starting again? The result was a bloated and unfocused Feast, which had to be eventually split. The book we got was poor, but allegedly most of Dragon was already written. Guess what? He did it again... precisely why 5 years later Dragon is still not finished, and I seriously doubt will be published in 2010 either.
Looking at some of Martin's pics from his trip to Morocco he looks fatter than ever. The life expectancy of an American man that has spent a vast majority of his life obese is not great. Lucky to have made it this far...
ASoIaF is complicated but no more than other fantasy/sci fi works out there ATM. WoT's scope, world, history and plot is deeper and more complicated than Martin's... but of course you know better having only read three books.
Martin's books & characters have more political scheming, but if you were more well read you would know they are no more complicated than other series out there. If you want complicated try the Peter Hamilton Night's Dawn series.
This still doesn't change the fact that it is Martin's lack of skill in handling his large and complex story that has been the major reason why he has only released one book in 10 years.
Did you know he wrote a large chunk of Feast before abandoning it and virtually starting again? The result was a bloated and unfocused Feast, which had to be eventually split. The book we got was poor, but allegedly most of Dragon was already written. Guess what? He did it again... precisely why 5 years later Dragon is still not finished, and I seriously doubt will be published in 2010 either.
Looking at some of Martin's pics from his trip to Morocco he looks fatter than ever. The life expectancy of an American man that has spent a vast majority of his life obese is not great. Lucky to have made it this far...
If you've only read the first three books, this view is somewhat understandable. Although even by then you had it beyond 'Rand goes to X', with the Black Ajah introduced, the location of most forsaken not known, the Seanchan not yet finished with, what the hell is Verin up to really (MAJOR implications later), the plot to free Taim (again major implications) and several more.
And from book 4 onwards the number of major and minor plots expands significantly. ASoIaF is one of my favourite series, but the end of AFFC versus the end of TGS, the number of plots in ASoIaF versus WOT is a lot less. And that's with the world painted in a lot less detail to boot.
The characters in ASoIaF have more depth IMO, and more realism (they aren't nearly all teenagers/young 20's which helps for depth!), but there aren't so many plots they should have gotten away from GRRM. At present most of the plotlines have stayed fairly seperated as well. If he's having trouble with Dance, then when Dany lands and all these plotlines start running through each other everywhere it will take him 15 years to do a book!
Kaiser, you have absolutely no idea... for starters try reading the rest of WoT before making such sweeping, inaccurate and ignorant statements.
ASoIaF is complicated but no more than other fantasy/sci fi works out there ATM. WoT's scope, world, history and plot is deeper and more complicated than Martin's... but of course you know better having only read three books.
Martin's books & characters have more political scheming, but if you were more well read you would know they are no more complicated than other series out there. If you want complicated try the Peter Hamilton Night's Dawn series.
This still doesn't change the fact that it is Martin's lack of skill in handling his large and complex story that has been the major reason why he has only released one book in 10 years.
Did you know he wrote a large chunk of Feast before abandoning it and virtually starting again? The result was a bloated and unfocused Feast, which had to be eventually split. The book we got was poor, but allegedly most of Dragon was already written. Guess what? He did it again... precisely why 5 years later Dragon is still not finished, and I seriously doubt will be published in 2010 either.
Looking at some of Martin's pics from his trip to Morocco he looks fatter than ever. The life expectancy of an American man that has spent a vast majority of his life obese is not great. Lucky to have made it this far...
I'm sorry if I offended you by sugesting that the first three books of WOT did not have an extremely complex plot, IMO, but if you are going to start getting personal and acting like a w***er, I will not be continuing the discussion. Compare your response to the measured and sensible response of Andre.
Everything in bold is spot on. Nothing to with me being offended, it is you making blatantly incorrect statements based on very limited information and knowledge.
You make broad and sweeping generalizations even though you've only read 3 of the 11 published books. If you had of read all WoT books and read a lot more in general then you would have realized that most of your points were nonsense. Instead you chose to stick with your extremely limited knowledge base and pose a "sun rises in the west" argument.
Probably better if you do opt out, were not adding anything of substance to the discussion anyway.
This is my main fear as well.
If he is having trouble navigating his plot structure when most of the POV characters are geographically separate, how the hell is he going to cope with all the storyline convergence and intersection associated with the series end game?
What substance are you adding exactly? Negative bullshit assumptions that Martin will either be dead before he finishes or does not have the ability or experience to write epic plots (laughable based on what he has produced to date). And because I have the temerity to argue with you, you get your knickers in a knot and start making further bullshit assumptions about how well read I am. You have no idea how much I have or have not read and the fact that make this point makes you very foolish indeed.
I am happy to accept that WOT evolves into a very deep plot, I simply stated that up to book 3, imo it was not. I stated that it could well have gotten deeper afterwards, Funny how Andre was intelligent enough to understand my post, but you were reduced to some ill-informed hissy fit. But enough about WOT, it has nothing to do with this thread.
I'm trying to keep a positive view on Martin's upcoming books. The bloke has the runs on the board to deserve the benefit of the doubt, but if you are prepared to write the bloke off already, then go ahead. Let's just hope that he proves you wrong.
Comments like this make it very easy to infer though...
Fact is ASoIaF is not that complex yet and there are plenty of authors capable of handling this sort of scope. Anyone with a moderate amount or reading behind them would recognise that.
Anyway, what we both have in common though is a strong liking for the series and a strong desire for him to complete it before he dies.
Given his current rate of productivity, his work ethic, his other projects, increasing complexity in later books, and finally his significant health risks I think there is a higher probability that he won't.
You blindly believe he will based on nothing other than an emotive want and blind optimism. You seem to make judgements based on minimal information (ie WoT) and that is your prerogative.
Time will tell and I honestly hope you are right and not me.
I believe he has the ability to handle the story based on the quality of the books he has produced to date. I'm not sure how you can call that nothing.
Could you please desist from your ignorant assumptions about my reading knowledge. I could make assumptions about your reading, suggesting that someone who has read an eleven book fantasy series three times over should perhaps broaden their reading horizons a bit more, but hey that would be presumptive of me.
Again, I am sorry that you feel I dissed the WOT, I very much enjoyed the first three. I will get back into it at some stage, I simply space out my reading of fantasy so that I can cover all genres, in an obviously futile attempt to be well read.
This is actually quite true for the first few books, although there are the other threads as well - the girls getting captured twice, Perrin's teen wolf dramas and the emergence of Mat's luck and old memories. I like both series, but WOT can be a bit 'teen drama + magic' sometimes. The internal monologues from some of the more mature characters (like Siuan Sanche) are a bit unbelievable - when they start thinking about men it's as though you're reading about a 15yo's thoughts.
ASOIAF has much more mature, believable perspectives. Even the teens have a mature POV, resultant from their trials in life; none of WOT's sniffing, braid-pulling, skirt-smoothing and 'Men!'
One thing I take issue with is GRRM's 'character development.' It's like he sits down and thinks 'what's the most obvious challenge I can present THIS character with?" And for Brienne and Tyrion it's to make them even uglier than they already are. With Jaime it's to take away his sword hand. I was OK with it for the most part, but when he disfigured Brienne by having her face chewed it was an 'Oh, FFS!' moment.
Still, they're both good, very readable series.
I think he's planning death by viagra overdose there.
I decided back in about 2004 I'd wait until Martin had this series close to completion before starting it (I've taken this wait until the end is in sight approach ever since I started WoT ) and it looks like ADWD isn't going to be done in time for a 2010 release. With 2 more books to go in the series after that I'm probably not going to start reading through it until 2015-16
) and it looks like ADWD isn't going to be done in time for a 2010 release. With 2 more books to go in the series after that I'm probably not going to start reading through it until 2015-16 
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GRRM will be in Melbourne on September 2-6 for Aussiecon IV (Worldcon)
Yet more evidence GRRM has little idea what he is doing... seems everything he writes is purely trial and error.
He seriously lacks the expertise, experience and knowledge to handle this series... thus why he has to constantly go back and rewrite significant sections of books when he corners himself in a dead end of his own making.
He literally doesn't know what POV or narrative structure to employ to tell a story most effectively. He simply guesses, buggers it up, and tries again.
Hopefully his own incompetence, and the associated trial and error approach to writing, leaves enough time to finish the series before he dies... not looking good though.
He seriously lacks the expertise, experience and knowledge to handle this series... thus why he has to constantly go back and rewrite significant sections of books when he corners himself in a dead end of his own making.
He literally doesn't know what POV or narrative structure to employ to tell a story most effectively. He simply guesses, buggers it up, and tries again.
Hopefully his own incompetence, and the associated trial and error approach to writing, leaves enough time to finish the series before he dies... not looking good though.
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- #96
you could be taking his words too literally
it could be him just hiding the fact that he just hasn't done anything up till now, but didn't want to say it.
it could be him just hiding the fact that he just hasn't done anything up till now, but didn't want to say it.
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Sorry didn't know. Just thought I'd put it up there anyway.
No need to apologize, just pointing out that these samples are parts of Feast that were cut and automatically overflowed into Dance.
It is a really good sample, so is the Dani POV that's been up on the site (on and off) for roughly the same time.
His problem is not an ability to write, but to think. Bit like a skilled carpenter trying to design and build his first house, which evolves into is a 50 room mansion.
It is a really good sample, so is the Dani POV that's been up on the site (on and off) for roughly the same time.
His problem is not an ability to write, but to think. Bit like a skilled carpenter trying to design and build his first house, which evolves into is a 50 room mansion.
