Expansion Gold Coast going past many other clubs?

[Ian Dargie]

I am also putting Essendon, North, Carlton, Port and all those teams who think they're building something towards challenging. Obviously they're leaving Melbourne, Brisbane and St Kilda in the dust.

What makes it worse is that Hawthorn, Freo and probably still Sydney are a long way ahead of everyone so the teams I mentioned earlier are probably playing for one spot in a prelim.

Surely too early to say this.

 

[SUNS]

Well done to Gold Coast for winning - but i think their key forwards presently McKenzie and Dixon aernt good enough - and they will struggle when they come to Melbourne

McKenzie? Our 190cm half back flanker?

 

[Damon_3388]

Well done to Gold Coast for winning - but i think their key forwards presently McKenzie and Dixon aernt good enough - and they will struggle when they come to Melbourne

Or their actual key forwards - Sam Day and Tom Lynch.

 

[Damon_3388]

look at both GCS and GWS! they both get an extra "priority pick" in the Draft this year again! they'll both be smashing sides week in, week out in 3 years time. they are guarenteed success by the AFL.

Simple solution - Get better.

 

[caitsith01]

Simple solution - Get better.

Probably easier if you get the first 2000 picks for 10 consecutive drafts.

One part of the problem IMHO is that when a Melbourne or St Kilda or Bulldogs gets one early pick, it's maybe 50/50 that the player will turn out to be good. But when these expansion clubs get a bunch of early picks, it's guaranteed that a good few of them will be guns.

The only hope is that some of the talent gets lured away. But looking at the current potential both teams are quite scary. The AFL went too crazy with the concessions, IMHO.

 

[Damon_3388]

One part of the problem IMHO is that when a Melbourne or St Kilda or Bulldogs gets one early pick, it's maybe 50/50 that the player will turn out to be good. But when these expansion clubs get a bunch of early picks, it's guaranteed that a good few of them will be guns.

Why are their picks any more "guaranteed" to be guns than any other clubs' high selections? They've still got to develop the players, with less "protection" from veterans around them in the early years.

 

[caitsith01]

Why are their picks any more "guaranteed" to be guns than any other clubs' high selections? They've still got to develop the players, with less "protection" from veterans around them in the early years.

They aren't, but they get multiple shots at it every draft, so they are likely to get a few guns and a few duds. Melbourne say might just get one dud.

 

[Damon_3388]

They aren't, but they get multiple shots at it every draft, so they are likely to get a few guns and a few duds. Melbourne say might just get one dud.

Good on them. We can't go back in time and change the decisions that have been made re: the draft process.

TBH, if clubs like Brisbane, Fremantle and a relocating South Melbourne had been given greater concessions on start-up, their success might not have been as hard won, and the league could have been even more prosperous outside of Victoria even sooner. In a way, we're simply making up for the sins of the past.

 

[Dan12]

Ok there has been a few wins against them already, however, this one was different. Gold Coast with two on the bench where headed .... and then went on to smash them for 10 min....
I admit the headline is a bit of a troll, but I'm not just picking on Richmond here. I am also putting Essendon, North, Carlton, Port and all those teams who think they're building something towards challenging. Obviously they're leaving Melbourne, Brisbane and St Kilda in the dust......
As a supporter of a team other than Hawthorn, Freo, Sydney, GCS and GWS I think we can forget about winning a flag for the next 7 or 8 years. The only thing that may stop that is free agency. It will be easier to pick apart their lists.

Sorry OP, this bolded bit is garbage. Gold Coast and GWS will be good teams and I think both will probably win a flag, but they won't be the unstoppable juggernauts as some are predicting. Sides with top draft picks have failed before, and sides who draft and develop players smartly have been rewarded. I mean look at the 'big three' right now, in Hawthorn, Sydney and Fremantle. Did any of them have draft picks you drooled over? Of course not. Melbourne and Carlton did, yeah that worked out well

Sydney have two top 10 picks on their list, and huge chunks from the trade table and the lower picks. Freo have used lots of low picks well, and Ross Lyon gets so much out of his lesser lights or 'role players' it's fantastic to watch. Hawthorn have traded for players extremely well, they've got some guns with their top picks picks and draft particularly well.

Oh but now GWS and GC have awesome picks, so that all changes and everyone is done for because there's some new AFL super teams rising.... Wow You actually think we can forget about winning flags.... and what's more delusional is that you reckon free agency will stop these new footballing super powers! So not effective coaching, good drafting, trading, player development, fitness coaches, tactical innovation.... (like all the current top teams have done) no, free agency is all that can stop them!

Last year GC beat some very poor sides below them plus Collingwood and North, who along with Brisbane were easily the most inconsistent teams of 2013. Not much at all. The expansion sides have been massively overhyped for teams that have done quite little in their short existence, so much unfulfilled potential that so many make preemptive judgements on. I know there's promise, but they haven't done a whole lot more than manage their list full of talented youngsters very well (which only applies to GC anyway).
GWS had an amazing win today and they looked really promising, but after one hugely impressive game it's not enough to pencil them in for any premierships.

By the way, Brisbane have beaten Gold Coast the last five times. Perhaps they haven't left us in the dust just yet Oh I love bandwagons, we're a rabble! Awful! Joke of a club! Gold Coast... full of talent, best midfield in the comp oozing with class, yep awesome. We haven't even seen Melbourne or St. Kilda play this year.... Oh well, also rabbles I guess. GWS would have been thrown in that basket too.... 12 hours ago I'm guessing

 

[KeilorUnder9s]

Good on them. We can't go back in time and change the decisions that have been made re: the draft process.

TBH, if clubs like Brisbane, Fremantle and a relocating South Melbourne had been given greater concessions on start-up, their success might not have been as hard won, and the league could have been even more prosperous outside of Victoria even sooner. In a way, we're simply making up for the sins of the past.

Yeah Sydney and Brisbane have been really hard done by....

 

[Damon_3388]

Yeah Sydney and Brisbane have been really hard done by....

Well they were on initial start-up, and for pretty much the first decade of their respective existences in their northern locations, yeah. Didn't get anywhere near the support and assistance from the league that their new cross-town rivals have gotten, and both nearly died within their first decade up north as a result. That was a mistake though, and the league has learnt from those mistakes, and has ensured a good starting base and a stable and successful future for these two new clubs. For the growth of the game and the future of the league, I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[Hellgood]

Probably easier if you get the first 2000 picks for 10 consecutive drafts.

One part of the problem IMHO is that when a Melbourne or St Kilda or Bulldogs gets one early pick, it's maybe 50/50 that the player will turn out to be good. But when these expansion clubs get a bunch of early picks, it's guaranteed that a good few of them will be guns.

The only hope is that some of the talent gets lured away. But looking at the current potential both teams are quite scary. The AFL went too crazy with the concessions, IMHO.

Surely you aren't arguing that Melbourne haven't had the luxury of 'a bunch of early picks' over a sustained period?

 

[00Stinger]

Not that I care, but if you think so, yeah.

The irony is that when Melbourne's rebuild will start bearing fruit in 4 to 5 years GWS and GC will be dominating and a
premiership will be beyond reach, or should I say further beyond reach.

I'm betting then you'll be a sore loser yourself.

Meh, I will just be happy to see us win a few games for a change.

 

[Xtreme]

They might towel up the weaker teams, but the GCS are still a work in progress. Sure on a very good day they could beat the more fancied teams. But they are still learning as they go along.

 

[lennon]

its now time for Victorian clubs to go in hard, get the cheque book out and poach a few of these gws and gc players, they cant keep them all under the salary cap, ****ing Vlad, gave them way to many concessions, what a turd he is , what a money guy he is , millions in salary, he has really taken us for suckers, and I hate seeing abblett running around getting his million odd, another money hungry turd, hoping like hell a knee reconstruction isn't far away for him

 

[Viceregal]

We can all remember what it was like with Brisbane having been given a massive free kick by the AFL with COLA + getting to pick away at Fitzroy.

Probably a waste of time but ...

- Brisbane never had a COLA - they had retention allowance which was available to every single club in the land
- they got to pick 8 (I think it was) of the players off of what was left of the Fitzroy list after everyone else had feasted on them for years while the AFL systematically destroyed them and 'encouraged' their best players to move on
- re startup ... which superstar dripping with talent and awesomeness did the Dons provide to the fledgling bears team ....?

 

[Smoocher]

GWS & Suns will dominate the comp from 2016 onwards until 2020. So all other teams that think are building for premiership in the next 5+ years, please think again. We are no hope. AFL has stuffed up this comp by giving the 2 expansion clubs way too many concessions. I for one will not be watching any Grand Final or Final if GWS V Suns. Stuff the AFL, stuff Vlad, stuff the Suns and stuff you GWS.

 

[Janus]

There are two kinds of people in this world - those that accept their fate, and those that give it the finger and do whatever they can to make sure that it doesn't happen. Remember Essendon's dominance in 2000/2001? Remember the Matthews mantra 'If it bleeds, we can kill it'? Why does everyone just accept that Gold Coast and GWS are going to dominate, like as if it excuses clubs like Sydney and Richmond for their pathetic performances over the weekend, the same way Fremantle's dominance over Collingwood somehow excuses theirs? The mountain just got harder to conquer, that's all. But it can still be conquered.

Anyone saying 'we have no hope' have a loser mentality as far as I'm concerned. Port Adelaide in the SANFL won many flags in the face of opposition that was more highly rated than they were, simply because they understood a fundamental tenet - endeavour, application and teamwork will always triumph over talent and individual brilliance.

The successful clubs are going to be the ones that welcome the challenge when the competition's version of the Miami Heat rolls into town. Ask the Dallas Mavericks about how they had no hope against them when they faced off for a championship.

 

[fishardansin]

Sorry OP, this bolded bit is garbage. Gold Coast and GWS will be good teams and I think both will probably win a flag, but they won't be the unstoppable juggernauts as some are predicting. Sides with top draft picks have failed before, and sides who draft and develop players smartly have been rewarded. I mean look at the 'big three' right now, in Hawthorn, Sydney and Fremantle. Did any of them have draft picks you drooled over? Of course not. Melbourne and Carlton did, yeah that worked out well

Sydney have two top 10 picks on their list, and huge chunks from the trade table and the lower picks. Freo have used lots of low picks well, and Ross Lyon gets so much out of his lesser lights or 'role players' it's fantastic to watch. Hawthorn have traded for players extremely well, they've got some guns with their top picks picks and draft particularly well.

Oh but now GWS and GC have awesome picks, so that all changes and everyone is done for because there's some new AFL super teams rising.... Wow You actually think we can forget about winning flags.... and what's more delusional is that you reckon free agency will stop these new footballing super powers! So not effective coaching, good drafting, trading, player development, fitness coaches, tactical innovation.... (like all the current top teams have done) no, free agency is all that can stop them!

Last year GC beat some very poor sides below them plus Collingwood and North, who along with Brisbane were easily the most inconsistent teams of 2013. Not much at all. The expansion sides have been massively overhyped for teams that have done quite little in their short existence, so much unfulfilled potential that so many make preemptive judgements on. I know there's promise, but they haven't done a whole lot more than manage their list full of talented youngsters very well (which only applies to GC anyway).
GWS had an amazing win today and they looked really promising, but after one hugely impressive game it's not enough to pencil them in for any premierships.

By the way, Brisbane have beaten Gold Coast the last five times. Perhaps they haven't left us in the dust just yet Oh I love bandwagons, we're a rabble! Awful! Joke of a club! Gold Coast... full of talent, best midfield in the comp oozing with class, yep awesome. We haven't even seen Melbourne or St. Kilda play this year.... Oh well, also rabbles I guess. GWS would have been thrown in that basket too.... 12 hours ago I'm guessing

RE the bolded bit:
We're not talking about a few high draft picks here. We're talking about

1. A whole suite of draft picks in the first round so on the grounds that 75% of top ten draft picks become very good players assures them 3 players in that draft.

2. First dibs on players before the drafts from zones like NT and their home states.

3. The ability to trade state league players for draft picks.

4. The allowance to grab players from other teams combined with the extra salary cap for extra players and how that is able to be used to front end contracts for players like Ablett and Scully as the future superstars are on peanuts for the first two years.

5. The ability to trade 17 year olds for GWS and GCS using that to pick up probably the two highest rated mids to go along with Swallow, who despite not coming on yet was a star at VFL level when 17.

6. 3 years of rubbish results allowing for further high draft picks.

7. Not to be seen yet (well GCS have shown with Caddy) but GCS bristling with midfield talent and GWS with three of the top ten young KPPs will be able to continue the list building as they start to challenge which will sustain the period of challenging.

8. Once the ridiculous nature of how much better they are compared to the rest of the comp becomes clear players wont want to leave.

I think the AFL know that this is going to happen. They are banking on rusted on support for clubs in traditional states through this period. The like of St Kilda and Footscray supporters and Richmond over the last few decades. If there is a massive loss in support for Sydney and Brisbane though this will be seen as a disaster in my eyes.

Credit to GWS and GCS for the way they've gone about it. Those concessions were agreed upon by other clubs because they thought that those clubs would be trading away draft picks and picking up lots of above middle of the road players to go with a bunch of developing talent to be close to middle of the road immediately and hope that the young talent pushes them into contention within 5 years. Not completely write off a few years by poaching youngish players, keeping all their draft picks and obviously have their young players in the gym all year round showing zero concern about whether they can run a game out.

That final point is worth noting. Last year I went to the GWS game against the bombers at docklands. I was shocked that a bunch of 19-21 year olds were more musclely that the mature Essendon players. It has since dawned on me that most players look like that in round 1, but their size and definition dwindles through the season as they lessen their load to get through.

I remember thinking that the best, and I think completely legitimate, way to tank would be to put all mature players who have any niggles into end of season surgery around July so that they hit the preseason 100% from day one and not play young players out of position but get them on medium to high weight training loads through the season so they keep gaining weight and learn how to compete when sore. Finally players who you're going to trade/delist give heaps of game time on a lighter load and let them "star".

I believe GCS and GWS have continued to do this throughout the season as well, which makes their fade outs worse that just young kids not ready for it yet. Just wait till they stop that, I suspect GCS will stop this year, and they have the best talent running around with the effect of 5+ preseasons training over just their first 3 years in the comp.

Lets not forget that Richmond completely out ran Essendon in a practice match played on a warm afternoon just a week ago but were themselves completely out ran last night by a young team with two players out of their rotation for a half.

 

[fishardansin]

Smoocher Janus lennon

I agree that it's a loser mentality to say "that's it". However, there is truth to it unless their is a concerted effort by the other clubs here. All clubs need to start bidding wars on ALL of their kids as they approach their contracts. If all of their players are getting market rates then they'll have to shed a fair few. Of course GWS and GCS can play that wisely and while they may be giving up talent every year they may also have 3 first round picks every year.

 

[smasha]

We haven't played em in Melbourne but by that time it may be too late.

You can't beat teams loaded with first round draft picks on their patch where the conditions are different to Melbourne's.

You need a totally different game plan for that one game.


It's a miracle we beat em in Cairns last year.

Anyway probably good thing we got that game out of the system straight away instead of playing good footy at home and then having to travel up there.

 

[lennon]

Smoocher Janus lennon

I agree that it's a loser mentality to say "that's it". However, there is truth to it unless their is a concerted effort by the other clubs here. All clubs need to start bidding wars on ALL of their kids as they approach their contracts. If all of their players are getting market rates then they'll have to shed a fair few. Of course GWS and GCS can play that wisely and while they may be giving up talent every year they may also have 3 first round picks every year.

agree, with this, time to start on GWS and GCS and try and get every player we can from them, and show Vlad he cant **** the system to his preferred teams

 

[Janus]

Smoocher Janus lennon

I agree that it's a loser mentality to say "that's it". However, there is truth to it unless their is a concerted effort by the other clubs here. All clubs need to start bidding wars on ALL of their kids as they approach their contracts. If all of their players are getting market rates then they'll have to shed a fair few. Of course GWS and GCS can play that wisely and while they may be giving up talent every year they may also have 3 first round picks every year.

This is going to happen regardless. Also...from 2018 onward both GCS and GWS will have to stave off raids for their players through free agency. Compensation won't be a factor by that stage - the AFL isn't going to say to them "Yeah, you can lose all these first round draft picks that we stupidly gave you so you can become a powerhouse dynasty and we'll give you more of them" - it just won't happen. The AFL is run for the clubs it represents. And what those existing clubs wanted was the tv rights to increase.

Take a look at Sam Day. His new contract will end exactly at the point where free agency becomes a factor. Every other player on their list will do the same thing, because there's no club loyalty to a franchise like this. It's a construct built out of nothing, in a state that doesn't really have an AFL following.

I reckon you're worried about nothing, personally. They'll be strong...but they aren't going to be unbeatable. It's not going to be Geelong 2007-2008 Mark II.

 

[TheMcGrathMan]

I think Gold Coast at Metricon and GWS in the wet @ Skoda or whatever it is called are hugely different propositions to playing them at your home ground.

Gold Coast could win 8-9 home games this year, but I struggle to see them winning more than 2 away games. They actually have a relatively hard travel tour this year, getting a lot of teams where they are pretty formidable. So 10-11 wins is pretty good, but it's just continued improvement, 8 last year etc etc. I can't see them dominating as soon as Freo for e.g. falls off the peak, I reckon they could be 3-4 years away still (O'Meara, Martin, Lonergan, Lemmens will still be 23-24 by then and the likes of Swallow, Bennell, Prestia, McKenzie, Thompson, Nicholls and Matera will be that 25-26 age group). And GWS is a year or 2 behind that.

I can't see the Hawks/Dockers/Swans having a monty on the flag for 2014-2015-2016-2017. GWS/GC might get the backend one and Hawks/Freo/Swans might get the 2014, but it's not like there's no interest for North/Essendon/Richmond/Port/Geelong/Carlton fans over that time...draft similarly to Geelong, use free agency wisely, and don't be afraid to lose a good player if that player is going to compromise your salary cap. Teams need to be bold and there will be a couple, maybe 3, flags there for the taking.

 

[TheMcGrathMan]

Take a look at Sam Day. His new contract will end exactly at the point where free agency becomes a factor. Every other player on their list will do the same thing, because there's no club loyalty to a franchise like this. It's a construct built out of nothing, in a state that doesn't really have an AFL following.

What a load of shit.

You think the likes of O'Meara, Swallow, Bennell, who have been there since they were 17-18, will get to 26 years old and think "good now I can **** the club over and get my $$$"? A couple will be forced out, granted. That will be due to the stars emerging into top 10-20 players in the AFL and just naturally commanding more $$$. But to just write off players having any sort of desire/love/sentimentalism for the club because it "is in QLD and an AFL expansion club" is dumb.