Good, Bad and Ugly Versus Essendon

[Crow-mo]

We've been without Bock for the last five games:-

Essendon - Neagle/Hurley
Carlton - Fevola/no one
West Coast - Kennedy/McKinley
Hawthorn - Franklin/no one
Collingwood - Cloke/Dawes

The impact of not having Bock hasn't been truly tested yet in the way it would against Riewoldt/Koschitzke. Pretty comfortable that Rutten and Stevens can match up against Rocca and Cloke though.

I wonder if our semi final opponent will determine whether we roll the dice with Bock?

well considering Riewoldt destroyed Bock last time, I am not sure if he's a saviour in that matchup.

 

[Elite Crow]

well considering Riewoldt destroyed Bock last time, I am not sure if he's a saviour in that matchup.

But what would he have done to Stevens? And Bock has a good record against Reiwoldt so you cant make that claim on one game.

And how would we have gone against the Hawks if Roughead was playing and we couldnt put Rutten on Franklin?

 

[Crow-mo]

But what would he have done to Stevens? And Bock has a good record against Reiwoldt so you cant make that claim on one game.

does he?

And how would we have gone against the Hawks if Roughead was playing and we couldnt put Rutten on Franklin?

if Roughead was playing we could still choose to put rutten on franklin if we wanted

after all Bock's record on franklin isn't spectacular.

 

[Moonwatcher]

Ugly - The photos and caption of McVeigh punching BV in the jaw in the Herald Sun.

The caption was "Cop this. McVeigh gives Vince one to go on with".

WTF! No mention of cowardly, illegal, unfair, fine, suspension etc.

The first shows the punch while the second photo shows an open hand but only the second photo is online.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/gallery/0,22010,5060161-19894-4,00.html.

I hope justice is done with McVeigh.

Bad - Why didn't the umpires stop this rubbish?

Good - Vince playing good footy despite the attentions

At least they showed the picture, as it would say everything.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

well considering Riewoldt destroyed Bock last time, I am not sure if he's a saviour in that matchup.

Riewoldt did beat him last time, kicking 4 goals. Comfortably got the points. However it was also the biggest thrashing our midfield has copped this season and the odds were heavily weighted in Riewoldt's favour. If our midfield gets beaten like that again it won't matter who plays in defense.

And Bock had a better game on Riewoldt in Round 2. That night it was Kossie who did the damage, Riewoldt and Bock pretty much broke even IIRC. It would be a massive leap of faith to entrust the match up to Stevo who, I'm fairly sure, has never played on Riewoldt.

 

[marvin]

Riewoldt did beat him last time, kicking 4 goals. Comfortably got the points. However it was also the biggest thrashing our midfield has copped this season and the odds were heavily weighted in Riewoldt's favour. If our midfield gets beaten like that again it won't matter who plays in defense.

And Bock had a better game on Riewoldt in Round 2. That night it was Kossie who did the damage, Riewoldt and Bock pretty much broke even IIRC. It would be a massive leap of faith to entrust the match up to Stevo who, I'm fairly sure, has never played on Riewoldt.

He did, in this game. The game in which he moved from "what the @%@#$ is he doing on our list" to "that was a good game" status. Incidentally, Bock's breakout game was against the same opponent 12 months earlier.

Having said that, Riewoldt in early 2006 although good was not the player of today. I'd take a fit Bock on him over a fit Stevens every time and twice on Sundays - just because Stevens once had a good result on him doesn't mean he's the right match up in an ideal world. Just ask Kris Massie, or Stevens, who took turns being carved up by Riewoldt in this match

 

[Crow-mo]

Having said that, Riewoldt in early 2006 although good was not the player of today.

that's just not true - he won his 3rd B&F in 2006, and was all australian for the second time.

incidentally you don't think our dominance in 2006 had any impact on his output?

I'd take a fit Bock on him over a fit Stevens every time and twice on Sundays - just because Stevens once had a good result on him doesn't mean he's the right match up in an ideal world.

no one has said Bock isn't individually a better player, the question is by how much - and what impact does it really have given our defensive structures?

Bock doesn't have a great record on either Riewoldt or Franklin, so its not like he's the 2nd coming of Rutten's owning of Tredrea for example.

Just ask Kris Massie, or Stevens, who took turns being carved up by Riewoldt in this match

and where was Bock in that match?

 

[Crow-mo]

Riewoldt did beat him last time, kicking 4 goals. Comfortably got the points. However it was also the biggest thrashing our midfield has copped this season and the odds were heavily weighted in Riewoldt's favour. If our midfield gets beaten like that again it won't matter who plays in defense.

you mean like all those games in 2005 and 2006 when our midfield was dominant?

 

[Elite Crow]

his absence hasn't impacted our results so far this year.

You have suggested trading Bock for Griffen, but not having Griffen has not impacted on our results. As a matter of fact Griffens absence hasnt impacted on Western Bulldogs results either.

stevens hasn't provided the same drive and rebound as bock, but he has been happier to stay at home and mind the store.

we're better with bock, but he's not a difference maker.

Your right in one respect, Stevens hasnt provided the same drive and rebound as Bock, but Bock doesnt have to sacrifce his run while minding the store. He does both exceptionally well.

does he?



if Roughead was playing we could still choose to put rutten on franklin if we wanted

after all Bock's record on franklin isn't spectacular.

Thats crap, Bock has a good record against Franklin, and who knows if Craig has played Bock on Buddy in the 07 final, I dare say we would have won it.

Yeh we could have decided to play Rutten on franklin, whilst having no match up for Roughead. That would be a good move.

that's just not true - he won his 3rd B&F in 2006, and was all australian for the second time.

incidentally you don't think our dominance in 2006 had any impact on his output?




no one has said Bock isn't individually a better player, the question is by how much - and what impact does it really have given our defensive structures?

Bock doesn't have a great record on either Riewoldt or Franklin, so its not like he's the 2nd coming of Rutten's owning of Tredrea for example.



and where was Bock in that match?

You often say to other posters, repeating something doesnt make it true, well I think your now guilty of that.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

you mean like all those games in 2005 and 2006 when our midfield was dominant?

Sorry, not following you here.

Yes, exactly like 2005 and 2006, when it was only the gilt-edged Eagles midfield that stopped us. Even some mid-range ability forwards (Perrie, McGregor, Welsh) got reasonable numbers for us during those years.

 

[Crow-mo]

You have suggested trading Bock for Griffen, but not having Griffen has not impacted on our results. As a matter of fact Griffens absence hasnt impacted on Western Bulldogs results either.

erm, what?

Your right in one respect, Stevens hasnt provided the same drive and rebound as Bock, but Bock doesnt have to sacrifce his run while minding the store. He does both exceptionally well.

no he doesn't.

Thats crap, Bock has a good record against Franklin, and who knows if Craig has played Bock on Buddy in the 07 final, I dare say we would have won it.

you know where the match records are, go take a look. BTW, was Bock on the field and available for that potential move?

Yeh we could have decided to play Rutten on franklin, whilst having no match up for Roughead. That would be a good move.

so in other words, its all about choice and we had it in either situation. not sure that was a point advancing your argument.

You often say to other posters, repeating something doesnt make it true, well I think your now guilty of that.

its a free country.

 

[Crow-mo]

Sorry, not following you here.

Yes, exactly like 2005 and 2006, when it was only the gilt-edged Eagles midfield that stopped us. Even some mid-range ability forwards (Perrie, McGregor, Welsh) got reasonable numbers for us during those years.

so you want to credit our defenders when our midfield was massively on top, but its not their fault when the other teams midfield is on fire?

can't have it both ways.

as an aside - would you trade Bock for Michael Hurley this off season?

 

[Elite Crow]

You have suggested trading Bock for Griffen, but not having Griffen has not impacted on our results. As a matter of fact Griffens absence hasnt impacted on Western Bulldogs results either. ..

erm, what? .

Okay, I will try to explain again. You say we havent missed Bock. And we could afford to trade him for Griffen. But why do we need to trade for Griffen, our team has been playing very well without Griffen in it. So why give up Bock for him.

Also Griffen missed the WB last 3 minor round games and they had some of their best wins. So the WB obviously havent missed him.

Your right in one respect, Stevens hasnt provided the same drive and rebound as Bock, but Bock doesnt have to sacrifce his run while minding the store. He does both exceptionally well..

no he doesn't. .

yes he does. The club awarded him our best player in 08 playing that very role.

Thats crap, Bock has a good record against Franklin, and who knows if Craig has played Bock on Buddy in the 07 final, I dare say we would have won it. ..

you know where the match records are, go take a look. BTW, was Bock on the field and available for that potential move?.

The last 2 games Bock played on Franklin, Franklin has kicked a total of 4 goals.

And Bock was playing up forward in that final.

Yeh we could have decided to play Rutten on franklin, whilst having no match up for Roughead. That would be a good move. ..

so in other words, its all about choice and we had it in either situation. not sure that was a point advancing your argument.

When we have had Bock and Rutten we have chosen to play Bock on Franklin, because he is the better match up. Your suggestion of trading Bock means we dont have that choice.

You often say to other posters, repeating something doesnt make it true, well I think your now guilty of that.

its a free country.

Your right it is, so why is it your style to attack other peoples opinions?

And the club obviously rate Bock as very important to the team. They wouldnt have made him Club Champion in 08. Not many clubs trade away their club champion and AA CHB.

 

[NikkiNoo]

I'll just do a short one

Excellent
Vince's ability to stand up for himself but to mainly focus on the ball and hurt the opposition that way.

Good
Dangerfield playing two games in a row and not getting concussed.
Essendon players having no idea about the pace of Mackay and his ability to close up their space.
Sellar's return to the ground after that horrible accidental clash. Well done James, so pleased to see him continually improve each week.

Bad
Crows supporters who do nothing but complain about our gameplan and the umpires the whole game. In a thumping like that they still were not happy and couldn't seem to comment on the positives.

Ugly
Like most others, players who need to go the man well off the ball are not what we want to see.
Burton for missing that mark and stopping the Adelaide chant that was building in the last quarter. The crowd was very good but if you want how a crowd should perform, listen to the Brisbane crowd last night. They start the chant when their team is down and need support.

 

[Damp Squarie]

Good

I ended up with seats 2 rows back on the fence in the NE pocket near the cameraman.

Put a great perspective on the game after watching from on high in the northern stand. Great ticketing for a raffle.

Bad

The sheep like walk to the shed from the northern end. That was me bleating like a sheep when the crush met the throng at the bus entry point.

Ugly

McVeigh the dog

 

[DJ75]

The Good

Vince. BOG. Outstanding performance. Very glad that flying elbow of his missed!

Johncock: Best small defender in the comp. How he can't make the AA squad of 40 I'll never know.

Pretty much everyone else.

The Bad:

Essendon. Coaching. Sniping. A rable going nowhere, but hey at least they're going nowhere really fast.

NLM - Had 3 cracks at Vince and Vince still showed how it's done. NLM you are pathetic mate. Perhaps you should try getting a kick yourself mate.

Umpires. Advatage rule is a complete shambles. Do they have any idea? HTB rule is a complete lottery. The HTB decision on Rutten was terrible. Even worse, Reilly had been tackled to the ground without the ball before it spilt to Rutten. When Rutten took possession the umpire was a good 40 metres away with about 10 players between him and the pack. The ball itself was on the far side, so he had ZERO clue what was happening and decided to call HTB!! Surely you don't guess decisions!!

The Ugly.

The emergency umpire. WTF was he doing? He is standing right there when Pussy boy punched Vince and did nothing. The punch was followed by an attempted head lock and became a short wrestle. Surely you report the bloke throwing the punch not the guy who got punched for wrestling his way out of a head lock!! Seriously do these maggots have any F'N clue?? I'm bloody furious about it.

 

[Crow-mo]

Okay, I will try to explain again. You say we havent missed Bock. And we could afford to trade him for Griffen. But why do we need to trade for Griffen, our team has been playing very well without Griffen in it. So why give up Bock for him.

Also Griffen missed the WB last 3 minor round games and they had some of their best wins. So the WB obviously havent missed him.

ok. griffen is a midfield player, not a structural position player.

yes he does. The club awarded him our best player in 08 playing that very role.

non-sequitur.

your facts don't support your conclusion. he won the B&F last year playing a position, nothing about that evidences any one particular aspect of that role.

walker was dropped from the team, does that mean the club doesn't rate either his goal kicking ability or his chasing?

The last 2 games Bock played on Franklin, Franklin has kicked a total of 4 goals.

Last 2 games is his career is it? I guess that also dodges the questions about the games Bock played where we wouldn't put him on Buddy.

however, just running with that conspicuously selective sample:

Buddy:
3 goals 1 in round 10 2009 against us. about average output for buddy in that period, entirely in keeping with his form, and performance against other teams then too. kick 4 goals in the 2 weeks prior, against melbourne and freo, and 3 goals against sydney and 1 goal against brisbane in the 2 weeks after.

1 goal 6 points in round 12, 2008
you're not saying because Buddy left his kicking boots home, that Bock has his number????

what's more in that game, Bock got a shit load of possessions, whilst Buddy was raining shots on goal - its rather obvious he wasn't minding the store.

lets add in the other game in 2008, whilst we're at it.
6 goals 3 on Bock.

sorry, the facts do not support your claims that Bock has a great record on Franklin.

but also consider this season:

2009 Buddy V Adelaide in detail:

Round 10 against bock:
6 kicks 6 handballs 3 marks 3 Goals 1 point.

Round 20 against Rutten
7 kick 7 handballs 4 marks 4 goals 0 points

other than kicking marginally straighter - he played virtually the same game, with EXACTLY the same output.

what's more go check Buddy's career averages - we are 3rd on the list of teams he averages the most goals against. doesn't sound like we have someone who is his arch nemesis.

http://www.finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=1526&SeasonID=2009&Sort=AverageGoals Desc


Does any of this mean Bock is not a good player?
No.
Does any of this mean Bock has the wood on Franklin?
Hell No.

And Bock was playing up forward in that final.

duh. exactly!!!!!!!

When we have had Bock and Rutten we have chosen to play Bock on Franklin, because he is the better match up. Your suggestion of trading Bock means we dont have that choice.

I think its shown pretty clearly above that Bock has nothing more than an average record on Franklin, and that he is not by any factual basis a better matchup than anyone else.

Your right it is, so why is it your style to attack other peoples opinions?

if you don't think opinions about content, you shouldn't be discussing them in public.

And the club obviously rate Bock as very important to the team. They wouldnt have made him Club Champion in 08. Not many clubs trade away their club champion and AA CHB.

his absence has really hurt us recently hasn't it?

as a team, we lack 3 things:
a ruckman
a small defender
a run n carry midfielder

why wouldn't you consider trading a (high value) replaceable player for what you don't have?

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

so you want to credit our defenders when our midfield was massively on top, but its not their fault when the other teams midfield is on fire?

can't have it both ways.

Ah, got you now.

Think you're drawing a fairly long bow there. St Kilda's dominance against us in Round 16 and their 20-2 season in general out-stripped our 05/06 dominance (although Rounds 1-16 in 2006 were probably on par). And Bock was exceptional in 2007 and 2008 when our midfield wasn't such an influential factor. Think you are under selling his defensive value.

But, semi related - I saw in another thread that you're suggesting that Hentschel will be the one to go if Bock returns, rather than Stevens. The more I think about the more I think this is how it will play out.

If Bock does play then we'll need Stevens as cover just in case he goes down injured during the game. I can't see Hentschel being a genuine, one-on-one defensive match up even though he can adequately pinch hit as a loose man.

To play Bock without Stevens in the 22 would be putting an awful lot of faith in Bock's recuperative powers.

Wildcard may be 'Big Jim' whose ability to pinch hit in a key defensive post would be our only insurance should Stevens make way. Fast becoming one of our most important players!

as an aside - would you trade Bock for Michael Hurley this off season?

I'd keep Tippett, Dangerfield, Walker, Vince and Porplyzia. Everyone else, I'd trade for Hurley in a heartbeat!

I predicted earlier this season that Rich would have a better career than all the players taken ahead of him. Well, we have a new contender. Most impressive young KPP since Riewoldt.

 

[Elite Crow]

ok. griffen is a midfield player, not a structural position player.

Exactly, so why would you trade our structural position player for a mid who is not missed by his team?

your facts don't support your conclusion. he won the B&F last year playing a position, nothing about that evidences any one particular aspect of that role.

walker was dropped from the team, does that mean the club doesn't rate either his goal kicking ability or his chasing?

If he wasnt good at stopping his player, would the club have kept him in the same position for 2 years? As much run as he provides, if he couldnt perform the fundamental defenders task of stopping his opponent he is hardly going to be rewarded for it is he.

The Walker comparison is stupid. He was dropped because of deficiencies. Bock hasnt been.

Last 2 games is his career is it? I guess that also dodges the questions about the games Bock played where we wouldn't put him on Buddy.

The decision to not play Bock on Buddy sooner was due to a) Craigs stubborness and b) the need to play Bock up forward, not because of perceived weakness on Bocks behalf. Otherwise why is Bock now our first choice to play Buddy?

however, just running with that conspicuously selective sample:

Buddy:
3 goals 1 in round 10 2009 against us. about average output for buddy in that period, entirely in keeping with his form, and performance against other teams then too. kick 4 goals in the 2 weeks prior, against melbourne and freo, and 3 goals against sydney and 1 goal against brisbane in the 2 weeks after.

1 goal 6 points in round 12, 2008
you're not saying because Buddy left his kicking boots home, that Bock has his number????

what's more in that game, Bock got a shit load of possessions, whilst Buddy was raining shots on goal - its rather obvious he wasn't minding the store.

So the pressure Bock put on him had nothing to do with Buddys inaccuracy? And Bock didnt play on him in the last qtr when Buddy was moved to the wing. Some of Buddys shots on goal came in that qtr.

lets add in the other game in 2008, whilst we're at it.
6 goals 3 on Bock.

sorry, the facts do not support your claims that Bock has a great record on Franklin.

but also consider this season:

2009 Buddy V Adelaide in detail:

Round 10 against bock:
6 kicks 6 handballs 3 marks 3 Goals 1 point.

Round 20 against Rutten
7 kick 7 handballs 4 marks 4 goals 0 points

other than kicking marginally straighter - he played virtually the same game, with EXACTLY the same output.

what's more go check Buddy's career averages - we are 3rd on the list of teams he averages the most goals against. doesn't sound like we have someone who is his arch nemesis.

The 6.3 Buddy kicked in that game, was Bock on him for the whole match?
And in that game we were beaten easily. Buddy was also in a rich vein of form kicking 5.4 against the Kangaroos and 8.6 against Brisbane.

Also where did I claim Bock had a great record, I said good which it is.

Buddys average performance against us is helped by the 7 he kicked in the eliminatiion final.

Rutten is also a very good backman. But you are missing the point, we could play Rutten on Franklin because Roughead was missing. With Roughead in the team, who would we put on Franklin, Stevens?

his absence has really hurt us recently hasn't it?

as a team, we lack 3 things:
a ruckman
a small defender
a run n carry midfielder

why wouldn't you consider trading a (high value) replaceable player for what you don't have?

Your defeating your own argument, you say we dont have these 3 types but not having them hasnt hurt our performance either has it?

And you dont consider Johncock a small defender?

 

[RuckRyder]

Too good for us on the night. Hope you dominate the Pies. Adelaide doesn't stir too many emotions in me but Collingwood certainly do.

Congratulations on your victory and good luck next week.

 

[kickavic]

as a team, we lack 3 things:
a ruckman
a small defender
a run n carry midfielder

dude what are you talking about?
maric isn't that bad, and has qualities a lot of bigger name ruckmen don't, like good ground level work and run n carry. johncock is a very good small defender, and symes will only get better. and no run n carry midfielder? heard of a lad called bernie vince? and mackay (albiet usually on the wing) is an outstanding carrier of the ball.. and as for dangerfield.. people are just gonna bounce further and further off him when they get in his way

 

[jenny61_99]

The crowd was very good but if you want how a crowd should perform, listen to the Brisbane crowd last night. They start the chant when their team is down and need support.

The Brisbane crowd had been pretty ordinary up to that point though.

 

[magtrev]

Plus it was on Channel 10, who amplify crowd noise till it drowns out the commentators to make the game seem more exciting.

 

[Vader]

Plus it was on Channel 10, who amplify crowd noise till it drowns out the commentators to make the game seem more exciting.

Drowning out their commentators is usually a good thing though.

 

[spexau]

Drowning out their commentators is usually a good thing though.

Especially considering all you could hear was Walls go on and on about Kruezer and Judd.