Grade our List

[Wickzki]

I believe that a premiership caliber team is built around players who play for the jumper, who play for and run for one another and possess an area of the game be it a skill or an intangible where they would be considered among the elite by their peers. Even the least skilled on the vast majority of premiership teams have something about them that would classify them as being elite.

We do not have enough players who play for the jumper, we too often play for ourselves and the last time I genuinely saw players running for one another in a big game was the West Coast game (it was what marked that game as a special victory as far as I'm concerned). This is a culture problem. It is the biggest area MM was supposed to improve. To this point he has not done so.
We have a number of highly skilled players many who have the potential or present ability to be considered "elite" in a certain aspect of their game. You cannot win football games without the first part being there. Those who do not want to complete the first part of the equation will be the ones who have to go. You can be elite but if you don't do it for your team and run for one another you have less chance of winning a flag than the Bulldogs.

 

[SayWhatAgain]

Just 22 that played Collingwood, CBF'd doing the entire club

Matthew Kreuzer - B+
Brock McLean - B-
Andrew Walker - A-
Chris Judd - A
Kane Lucas - D-
Andrew Carrazzo - D
Michael Jamison - B-
Lachie Henderson - B+
Kade Simpson - C-
Levi Casboult - C+
Mitch Robinson - C+
Bryce Gibbs - C+
Andrew McInnes - C
Chris Yarran - D
Marc Murphy - C
Eddie Betts - F
Zach Tuohy - C+
Ed Curnow - C+
Jaryd Cachia - C+
Dennis Armfield - C-
Jeff Garlett - B+
Jarrad Waite - A-

And some other on the top of my head

Shaun Hampson - F
Jeremy Laidler - C-
Nick Duigan - D-
Troy Menzel - C-
Sam Rowe - C
Matt Watson - C+
Nick Graham - B-
Tom Temay - C-
Luke Mitchell - B

 

[inyourcool]

Bloody hell, I was trying not to be too savage but you've gone straight for the jugular vein which I have no issue with whatsoever and in the most, agree with wholeheartedly.

The common theme here is that on every other forum I've visited over the weekend, people are putting up similar types of lists and regardless of who they put where, it's the sheer number of names that isn't changing.

The vast majority of Blues fans believe that we have around 50% of the list that has to be moved on in some shape or form. Sad situation to find ourselves in !!

I just really feel that we are SO far away from challenging that it is vital to call a spade a spade! Not that it matters that I do but hopefully mick does!!! Sadly, we had a golden opportunity to build towards a top 4 side with the arrival of Judd and that almost culminated in 2011 but we were unlucky that year and just as quickly as we were there we slid back right away. Now we have an ageing champion who's will seems to be waning and others who are unable or unwilling to step up.

Now we realise that we are not even close to challenging and I think the time has come to be brutal. I honestly believe we are about 5 years away from looking at top 4. Hopefully the nucleus will be Murphy, Gibbs, Hendo and a few others but we need to turn over this list.

Hopefully we don't **** it up like we have the last 5-6 years!!!

 

[gbatman]

I'm not going to rate the players A-D, rather whether or not they are premiership/top 4 standard or not.

This is our best 22 as we sit

B: Touhy Jamison McInness
HB: Walker Henderson Simpson
C: Lucas Judd Gibbs
HF: Murphy Casboult Yarran
F: Betts Waite Garlett
OB: Kreuzer Mclean Carrazzo
IC FROM: Scotland RobinsonCurnowCachia Armfield

What's wrong here? The starting 18 looks good but...

There are too many soft small forwards who can only play forward and can't go into the midfield. We haven't got enough quality to rotate through the midfield which means far too often we have poor quality players playing on the ball. This is where our fade-outs come from.

There are far too many poorly skilled, defensive players who just can't get the ball and can't use it. Robinson, Curnow, Cachia, Armfield and Casboult would not get a game in a top 4 side and will not get a game if we ever become a top 4 side. To be top 4, to give you an idea, Mclean and Carrazzo would need to be our worst midfielders.

Waite is always out through injury and too heavily relied on due to being the only tall forward on our list with talent and ability.

No medium sized forward. We really don't have a player who can mark and kick goals from ground level, Walker can but he's too important up the other end.

Scotland, Waite, Judd and Carrazzo are all nearly finished. They need high grade young players around them so they can play in the pockets, flanks and pinch hit in key positions like on the ball but they haven't got that. At Sydney Goodes, O'Keefe and Bolton can continue to play on and play really good footy because they have a core of very high quality midfielders coming in to take over from them and allow them to settle back into other roles as forwards, taggers and occasional midfielders who don't get heavy tags. We haven't got that.


Possible immediate fixes:

B: Touhy Jamison McInness
HB: Walker Watson Simpson
C: Lucas Judd Gibbs
HF: Murphy Henderson Yarran
F: Betts Waite Garlett
OB: Kreuzer Mclean Carrazzo
IC: Scotland Graham Buckley Menzel

* Yarran needs to become a midfielder.
* Then the questions arise, are Buckley, Menzel, Graham and Watson ready or good enough?
* Are our onball broblems any better than they were before?
* Who pinch hits in the ruck, should Casboult be squeezed into this side some how? If so it is for a small forward.
* We are 4 - 6 really good players of various types away from challenging for the flag (Tall forward and/or tall defender of high quality, 3-4 really high quality Midfielders who can impact up forward).
* It's not that our whole list is C or D grade and lacks A graders, it's that we don't have marking players up forward and we have no quality of depth in the midfield and we have too many small forwards who can't play midfield and that there are too many poor quality players being rotated through the midfield.
* To win a flag, our bottom end needs to lift. Our top end really needs to become our bottom end.

 

[Aphrodite]

That's all we needed and there was no need to shout too !!

Quoting in red is shouting.

 

[The Coach]

Just 22 that played Collingwood, CBF'd doing the entire club

Matthew Kreuzer - B+
Brock McLean - B-
Andrew Walker - A-
Chris Judd - A
Kane Lucas - D-
Andrew Carrazzo - D
Michael Jamison - B-
Lachie Henderson - B+
Kade Simpson - C-
Levi Casboult - C+
Mitch Robinson - C+
Bryce Gibbs - C+
Andrew McInnes - C
Chris Yarran - D
Marc Murphy - C
Eddie Betts - F
Zach Tuohy - C+
Ed Curnow - C+
Jaryd Cachia - C+
Dennis Armfield - C-
Jeff Garlett - B+
Jarrad Waite - A-

And some other on the top of my head

Shaun Hampson - F
Jeremy Laidler - C-
Nick Duigan - D-
Troy Menzel - C-
Sam Rowe - C
Matt Watson - C+
Nick Graham - B-
Tom Temay - C-
Luke Mitchell - B

So many wrong it would be quicker to list the couple you got right

 

[SayWhatAgain]

So many wrong it would be quicker to list the couple you got right

I based them on form this year, not overall skill.

 

[The Coach]

I based them on form this year, not overall skill.

Makes a fair bit more sense then but you cannot rate those who have played zero games of AFL

 

[Mister Carlton]

A+aron Joseph.

 

[pinot]

I based them on form this year, not overall skill.

It's all up for conjecture and it's all fair enough.

Walker on this years performance is A-A+
Gibbs output this year has been outstanding and is a definite B+.. a confirmed breakout year will have him at A-A+
Murphy's output isn't to what it has be but he's not having a C grade year. http://www.carltonfc.com.au/player-profile/marc-murphy
Robinson has been woeful all year and Simpson after a slow start his output has been vastly better than Robinson yet you have Robinson rated higher....etc etc.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

have upgraded Kreuzer and Henderson to A graders

will be the back bone of the blues for the rest of this decade

 

[The Blue Baggers]

Based on the old school report rate our list.

Grades
A+ = All time great
A = Champion
B = Better than most
C = good average player
D = Just a player
F = failure
UG = too soon to judge


A+ Chris Judd
A Marc Murphy
B+ Matthew Kreuzer
B Andrew Carazzo, Andrew Walker, Lachie Henderson, Jarrad Waite, Eddie Betts, Heath Scotland
C+ Chris Yarran
C Brock McLean, Bryce Gibbs, Michael Jamison, Jeff Garlett, Kade Simpson, Robbie Warnock
D Kane Lucas, Mitch Robinson, Ed Curnow, Denis Armfield, Zach Tuohy
UG - Jarryd Cachia, Andrew McInness, Levi Casboult

may have over graded Robinson.... D-

 

[Juddalenko]

may have over graded Robinson.... D-

Shirtfront on Gary then sucked Gary in while the Gary Coast Gary's were having a shot for goal. Robinson gets a G+ (Gary +)

 

[toomuchsparetime]

I'm not going to rate the players A-D, rather whether or not they are premiership/top 4 standard or not.

This is our best 22 as we sit

B: Touhy Jamison McInness
HB: Walker Henderson Simpson
C: Lucas Judd Gibbs
HF: Murphy Casboult Yarran
F: Betts Waite Garlett
OB: Kreuzer Mclean Carrazzo
IC FROM: Scotland RobinsonCurnowCachia Armfield

What's wrong here? The starting 18 looks good but...

There are too many soft small forwards who can only play forward and can't go into the midfield. We haven't got enough quality to rotate through the midfield which means far too often we have poor quality players playing on the ball. This is where our fade-outs come from.

There are far too many poorly skilled, defensive players who just can't get the ball and can't use it. Robinson, Curnow, Cachia, Armfield and Casboult would not get a game in a top 4 side and will not get a game if we ever become a top 4 side. To be top 4, to give you an idea, Mclean and Carrazzo would need to be our worst midfielders.

Waite is always out through injury and too heavily relied on due to being the only tall forward on our list with talent and ability.

No medium sized forward. We really don't have a player who can mark and kick goals from ground level, Walker can but he's too important up the other end.

Scotland, Waite, Judd and Carrazzo are all nearly finished. They need high grade young players around them so they can play in the pockets, flanks and pinch hit in key positions like on the ball but they haven't got that. At Sydney Goodes, O'Keefe and Bolton can continue to play on and play really good footy because they have a core of very high quality midfielders coming in to take over from them and allow them to settle back into other roles as forwards, taggers and occasional midfielders who don't get heavy tags. We haven't got that.


Possible immediate fixes:

B: Touhy Jamison McInness
HB: Walker Watson Simpson
C: Lucas Judd Gibbs
HF: Murphy Henderson Yarran
F: Betts Waite Garlett
OB: Kreuzer Mclean Carrazzo
IC: Scotland Graham Buckley Menzel

* Yarran needs to become a midfielder.
* Then the questions arise, are Buckley, Menzel, Graham and Watson ready or good enough?
* Are our onball broblems any better than they were before?
* Who pinch hits in the ruck, should Casboult be squeezed into this side some how? If so it is for a small forward.
* We are 4 - 6 really good players of various types away from challenging for the flag (Tall forward and/or tall defender of high quality, 3-4 really high quality Midfielders who can impact up forward).
* It's not that our whole list is C or D grade and lacks A graders, it's that we don't have marking players up forward and we have no quality of depth in the midfield and we have too many small forwards who can't play midfield and that there are too many poor quality players being rotated through the midfield.
* To win a flag, our bottom end needs to lift. Our top end really needs to become our bottom end.

GBatman, that's one hell of a quality post... I'd say the most succinct assessment of where our team is at the moment that I've heard aywhere.

I think the MC are thinking along similar lines when they mention significant clean-out at the end of the year.

The problem n 2013 is that we are trying to accomplish two thigs at once. On the one hand, we are trying to make finals this year, so have to pick a squad which could win on any particular day. On the other hand, we are giving games to players that are never going to be good enough to help us win premierships and this is at the expense of the development of our young and upcoming talent.

It may be that we can get away with playing one or two 'peripheral' or 'role' players, but no where near as many as we are carrying.

Your point about Carrazzo or McLean being our worst midfielders in a potential premiership is a good way of putting it. If we start there then those below those two would be: Curnow, Cachia, Robinson, Armfield, Scotland (age) and possibly Lucas. That's 5 or 6 new midfielders that we need to find or develop. I think this is too high a number to simply wait for natural development in the reserves. So we must fast track development and hopefully grab a midfielder during trade period.

Many times players such as Robinson and Armfield have been lauded for how they lift their teamates through their desperate acts. While I agree this is true, the reality is that all of our players need to bring this every match. If this was the case then we wouldn't need the 'effort' players and could focus more of quality disposal and decision making.

The question for the rest of the 2013 season is, do the MC have the guts and systems in place to give the guys you mention as possible solutions to our deficiencies as a team: Graham, Menzl, Buckley and Watson?

 

[gbatman]

Yeah pretty spot on. I think Graham and probably Buckley and Menzel might be players who get placed in our best 22 for next season more permanently. I think Menzel and Buckley may have to improve their midfield game though so all eyes on them in the coming nab cup. There will be at least one free agent coming our way I get the feeling to bolster our desperate need for quality midfielders who can go forward and maybe our missing good key position player.

Some of our players have been in a bit of a trial phase this year. Garlett and Armfield have spent significant periods where they have spent significant time in the midfield. The problem is they haven't gone any good here. Early in the season Duigan, Laidler, Davies and Joseph were given games and it appears they have had a line drawn threw their names very early on. Casboult is an interesting one for mine, he would want to start playing some four quarter games soon too with Rowe being singed up and possibly a little more preferred. I get the feeling that there could be some trades involving some of our less flexible best 22 players.

At this stage we are just trying to learn as much about our best 25-30 odd players (particularly the older ones) and make finals in the process. I think we have mostly figured out who we need and who we don't and who is and who is not up to it and where our surpluses are and where our weaknesses are.

There will be a massive clean out, I'm guessing about 10 players, some best 22 players will be gone, extra draft picks will likely be acquired and at least one free agent will be coming our way. There will be some tough calls because some decent players will be traded I feel.

Get a couple of gun players who can go on the ball and rest up forward, Thomas is one that every one has on their mind, there may be others. Finding a tall forward or what I think is a better option, a good tall defender to allow Henderson to go back is another option. I think getting extra draft picks is also very important.

 

[PumpyChowdown]

Ratings are on 2013 form. I am not rating players on "heart" or if they "bleed Navy Blue". Purely on their football. My ratings are as follows:

A - Excellent | B - Very good | C - Average | D - Below average | F - Fail | UG - Un-gradable

A
Henderson

B
Waite
Scotland
Tuohy
Simpson
Kruezer
Walker

C
Murphy
Judd
Jamison
Carrazzo
Yarran
Mclean
Curnow
Cachia
McInnes
Gibbs
Lucas
Betts
Garlett
Armfield
Watson

D
Robinson
Laidler
Collins
Ellard
Rowe
White
Warnock
Duigan
Bell
Casboult
Bootsma
Hampson

F
Davies
Joseph

UG
O'Keeffe
Menzel
Graham
McCarthy
Mitchell
Buckley
Temay
Dale

 

[The Blue Baggers]

The following players have had down grades;

F
Sam Rowe
KANE LUCAS

 

[mikeythemoocow]

Ratings are on 2013 form. I am not rating players on "heart" or if they "bleed Navy Blue". Purely on their football. My ratings are as follows:

A - Excellent | B - Very good | C - Average | D - Below average | F - Fail | UG - Un-gradable

A
Henderson

B
Waite
Scotland
Tuohy
Simpson
Kruezer
Walker

C
Murphy
Judd
Jamison
Carrazzo
Yarran
Mclean
Curnow
Cachia
McInnes
Gibbs
Lucas
Betts
Garlett
Armfield
Watson

D
Robinson
Laidler
Collins
Ellard
Rowe
White
Warnock
Duigan
Bell
Casboult
Bootsma
Hampson

F
Davies
Joseph

UG
O'Keeffe
Menzel
Graham
McCarthy
Mitchell
Buckley
Temay
Dale

Reckon that list is about right. The way I see it we are sitting in the middle of the ladder, which I would say makes us as a team a C grade, so it should follow that the majority of our players are C grade players.

 

[thylacine60]

shit list is shit

 

[Juddalenko]

shit list is shit

Our list, or the lists about the list in this thread?

 

[Mister Carlton]

both...

 

[Matt Whykes]

Rated for 2013 output in the senior team when they've played - credit/pass/fail

Credit
Hendo
Simpson (especially lately has been monumental, or in some instances just mental)
Walker
Tuohy
Kruezer

Pass
Waite (would be credit if he could stay on the park)
Jamo
Garlett (credit on early season form, fail lately averages out)
Murphy (clearly injured)
Judd (clearly past his explosive best but still shows quality)
McLean
Curnow (can't fault his effort, but also can't help but think in a better team he shouldn't be getting a sniff)
Gibbs (doing barely enough)
Watson (based on the games that he's played is showing some promise finally)
Lucas (really???)
McInnes

Fail
Everyone else including the coach, and too depressing to think about!!

Finally, the why the hell haven't they been given a better run especially since we've had such a rubbish season??
Bell
Laidler
Graham

 

[Dramoth]

Probably not the best week for this but your assessment is pretty level headed, so kudos. .. Think Kreuzer is only a B at best though. .. Why'd you only include half the list though?

A+ Chris Judd
A Marc Murphy**
B Andrew Carazzo, Andrew Walker, Lachie Henderson, Jarrad Waite**, Eddie Betts, Heath Scotland, Matthew Kreuzer**
C+ Chris Yarran, Brock McLean**, Bryce Gibbs*, Michael Jamison**, Kade Simpson*
C Jarryd Cachia, Jeff Garlett, Robbie Warnock, Shaun Hampson, Jeremy Laidler**, Levi Casboult, David Ellard
D Kane Lucas, Mitch Robinson, Ed Curnow, Denis Armfield, Zach Tuohy, Sam Rowe, Nick Duigan, Marcus Davies, Simon White, Aaron Joesph, Matthew Watson*, Pat McCarthy
UG - Andrew McInness**, Dylan Buckley, Nick Graham, Luke Mitchell**, Tom Temay, Josh Bootsma

* Should be better & higher rated
** Injury has curtailed their ability to be rated where they should have been

Did I miss anyone?

I would have 2 * next to Lucas as well... he should be further along than where he is currently thanks to the mismanagement of his hamstring issues in his first couple of years on the list. Casboult should also have a couple of * next to him as well.

I think that the rating system needs a - level if you are going to be honest about it all. I think that a number of our guys could be slightly higher rated but there isnt the levels to put them into. Lucas, I would currently rate as a solid C- sneaking up to at least a C... Watson would get the same sort of grading.

Tuohy, after the last month, I would rate as a C to a C+.

I would drop Casboult down to a C- because of his kicking for goal, but the rest of his skill set are good enough to rate him as a C.

Menzel would sit in the UG or possibly a D- for "Hasn't played enough games to garner an accurate rating but looks good for the future". McCarthy would need to be either a UG or a D-.

White has firmed himself into a C- spot I think. Army is also a C- I would say... good honest player slightly above average.

How, I pretty much agree with the rest of your assessments.

 

[Dramoth]

Rated for 2013 output in the senior team when they've played - credit/pass/fail

Credit
Hendo
Simpson (especially lately has been monumental, or in some instances just mental)
Walker
Tuohy
Kruezer

Pass
Waite (would be credit if he could stay on the park)
Jamo
Garlett (credit on early season form, fail lately averages out)
Murphy (clearly injured)
Judd (clearly past his explosive best but still shows quality)
McLean
Curnow (can't fault his effort, but also can't help but think in a better team he shouldn't be getting a sniff)
Gibbs (doing barely enough)
Watson (based on the games that he's played is showing some promise finally)
Lucas (really???)
McInnes

Fail
Everyone else including the coach, and too depressing to think about!!

Finally, the why the hell haven't they been given a better run especially since we've had such a rubbish season??
Bell
Laidler
Graham

You are having a giraffe arent you?

This year was all about Mick sorting out the list and working out the players and who are going to fit his game plan going forwards. From my perspective he has done a pretty good job and we will be a lot better for it.

It's all very well having all the flashy fast outside runners playing a very outside game, but at some point the opposition gets the ball and those fast flashy outside players have to get inside and defend.

We have a lot of guys who are good at going in one direction, but when asked to turn around and defend, they shit themselves.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

Rated for 2013 output in the senior team when they've played - credit/pass/fail

Credit
Hendo
Simpson (especially lately has been monumental, or in some instances just mental)
Walker
Tuohy
Kruezer

Pass
Waite (would be credit if he could stay on the park)
Jamo
Garlett (credit on early season form, fail lately averages out)
Murphy (clearly injured)
Judd (clearly past his explosive best but still shows quality)
McLean
Curnow (can't fault his effort, but also can't help but think in a better team he shouldn't be getting a sniff)
Gibbs (doing barely enough)
Watson (based on the games that he's played is showing some promise finally)
Lucas (really???)
McInnes

Fail
Everyone else including the coach, and too depressing to think about!!

Finally, the why the hell haven't they been given a better run especially since we've had such a rubbish season??
Bell
Laidler
Graham

think you are way of the mark on Micky Malthouse, last year our non performing players hid behind ratten. this year they have been exposed as not good enough.

disagree with your ranking of lucas who I think has been a massive fail. not strong enough in close (or tackling) but does not have the elite skills to be an outside player.

agree with your credits and also agree with the players that should have been given more of run.