Society/Culture Greens vow to move Australia Day

[Frank Bunn]

It will hard to find archaeological evidence of farming without metalworking within the culture.

Or the absence of references to Aboriginal pottery. You would expect plenty of evidence of the firing of clay vessels in a society that stored grain.

 

[Roylion]

Cultivation of yams happened across the continent including in the Tweed Valley near where I live.

On what scale though? That is largely the question. Does Pascoe over-exaggerate / slant his sources to suit his own agenda?

What Gerritson has is a theory that reflects his European bias. The same bias that this book runs headlong into. It might be accurate, it might not but there is no reason to assume what he says is the defining opinion on the subject.

Certainly. Where did I say it was? Pascoe does use him as a source though for his own work. Hence my own mention.

His ideas on language were strongly questioned by experts on Nhanda language so that puts doubt on the rest of his theories too.

Juliette Blevins in particular. They had a series of exchanges through various published exchanges such as this 2001 reply to Blevin's criticisms by Gerritson

Not knowing enough about this some of my questions are along the lines of what specific species of yam did they grow?

Dioscorea hastifolia which has also been found along the north-east coast of Australia.

and if it's that specific introduced species is there some sort of pathway where this plant turns up leading to areas on the northern coastline?

Gerritson suggests that the Dutch brought the yam to Western Australia via Indonesia.

 

[Frank Bunn]

The funniest thing about Bruce Pascoe, who can't provide evidence of his Aboriginality, despite being the winner of an Indigenous Writers' Prize, is this letter he co-signed in 2011.

The judges of the David Unaipon Award, part of the Queensland Premier’s Literary Awards, have been in dispute with the awards committee about the legitimacy of entrants and the nature of submissions.​

​

The judges for the past four years have been concerned that the awards entrance criteria may allow people without an Aboriginal heritage to enter the event.​

​

Furthermore we feel that the original purpose of the award was that it should reflect Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander life in some way.​

​

A statutory declaration is not sufficient proof of identity, in our opinion. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are required to have a known relationship to community for their identity to be accepted by that community.​

​

The manuscripts entered in the competition should show some cultural association.​

​

We believe this is not an onerous requirement. Non-Indigenous writers might rebel at such an association, but Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders accept such rules as a part of Indigenous life.​

​

We urge the Queensland Premier’s Department to reconsider the advice of the judges.​

​

Until such requirements are met we will not act as judges for the David Unaipon Award and urge others to approach with caution before committing to an award we believe has been sullied by the Premier’s Department approach.​

​

Jennifer Kemarre Martinello and Bruce Pascoe​

p25

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

 

[Frank Bunn]

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

You get to decide who is Aboriginal and who is not?

By what right?

To cut a long story short the high court said it required some Aboriginal blood. It causes a huge bun fight amongst Aboriginal groups whenever there is government funding or special projects to divy up, about who is really Aboriginal.

Incidental to my comment on Bruce Pascoe from the Koori Mail it's clear from glancing through that edition that young, white skinned, attractive, middle class people are gaining some advantage from claiming to be indigenous. It's time the requirements were changed to be based on needs rather than race.

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

 

[Snake_Baker]

Andrew Bolt’s disappointment

MY FRIENDS TAKE a breath, lean across the table and assume the tone of Richard Dawkins explaining dinosaurs to intelligently designed Christians. They believe that in my promotion of Aboriginal achievement I’m simply being loyal to family or wanting to take a belligerent stance on our country’s...

www.griffithreview.com

Default position: Andrew Bolt.

The last refuge of a liberal scoundrel.

 

[ferball]

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

To cut a long story short the high court said it required some Aboriginal blood. It causes a huge bun fight amongst Aboriginal groups whenever there is government funding or special projects to divy up, about who is really Aboriginal.

Incidental to my comment on Bruce Pascoe from the Koori Mail it's clear from glancing through that edition that young, white skinned, attractive, middle class people are gaining some advantage from claiming to be indigenous. It's time the requirements were changed to be based on needs rather than race.

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

Are you saying people shouldn't be able to claim they're indigenous unless they are disadvantaged?



Or ugly?

 

[Frank Bunn]

Are you saying people shouldn't be able to claim they're indigenous unless they are disadvantaged?

I'm saying what I said. State benefits should be based on needs rather than race. I mean 'race'.

 

[ferball]

On what scale though? That is largely the question. Does Pascoe over-exaggerate / slant his sources to suit his own agenda?

I dunno the scale. Not on the scale we associate with agriculture. That usually involves monocultures of some sort and scales up as soon as armies get involved.

As for how much spin he puts on things...

I think his agenda is simply to portray aboriginal Australians as not the primitive morons they get continually framed or portrayed as. Uncivilised, unable to think or plan or do things that required forethought, like simple agriculture.

Growing yams is hardly aquaponics.

Certainly. Where did I say it was? Pascoe does use him as a source though for his own work. Hence my own mention.

Dioscorea hastifolia which has also been found along the north-east coast of Australia.

Gerritson suggests that the Dutch brought the yam to Western Australia via Indonesia.

Okay ... It's the same yam used in the tweed as far as I can tell from a quick online check.

If you knew that why would you bother acknowledging Gerritson's claim of Dutch involvement in the cultivation? It's at odds with the biological facts. The plant is native to Australia. If Pascoe knew I can see why he ignored it.

It doesn't make the citation invalid.

I don't think we're talking the sort of scale of farming that happened in Europe and the Middle East BCE.

 

[Chief]

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

To cut a long story short the high court said it required some Aboriginal blood. It causes a huge bun fight amongst Aboriginal groups whenever there is government funding or special projects to divy up, about who is really Aboriginal.

Incidental to my comment on Bruce Pascoe from the Koori Mail it's clear from glancing through that edition that young, white skinned, attractive, middle class people are gaining some advantage from claiming to be indigenous. It's time the requirements were changed to be based on needs rather than race.

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

But why do YOU think YOUR opinion should count?

 

[ferball]

I'm saying what I said. State benefits should be based on needs rather than race. I mean 'race'.

So all indigenous related assistance programs should go?

 

[Frank Bunn]

So all indigenous related assistance programs should go?

Wouldn't a needs based program be better focused, less wasteful and more effective than this blanket approach of throwing resources at the increasing number of people claiming to be indigenous?

The existing government funding seems to be based around keeping a multi billion dollar industry running with no tangible benefit.

 

[Chief]

The funniest thing about Bruce Pascoe, who can't provide evidence of his Aboriginality, despite being the winner of an Indigenous Writers' Prize, is this letter he co-signed in 2011.

The judges of the David Unaipon Award, part of the Queensland Premier’s Literary Awards, have been in dispute with the awards committee about the legitimacy of entrants and the nature of submissions.​

​

The judges for the past four years have been concerned that the awards entrance criteria may allow people without an Aboriginal heritage to enter the event.​

​

Furthermore we feel that the original purpose of the award was that it should reflect Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander life in some way.​

​

A statutory declaration is not sufficient proof of identity, in our opinion. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are required to have a known relationship to community for their identity to be accepted by that community.​

​

The manuscripts entered in the competition should show some cultural association.​

​

We believe this is not an onerous requirement. Non-Indigenous writers might rebel at such an association, but Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders accept such rules as a part of Indigenous life.​

​

We urge the Queensland Premier’s Department to reconsider the advice of the judges.​

​

Until such requirements are met we will not act as judges for the David Unaipon Award and urge others to approach with caution before committing to an award we believe has been sullied by the Premier’s Department approach.​

​

Jennifer Kemarre Martinello and Bruce Pascoe​

p25

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

Get your hand off it.

“However, Mansell acknowledged that some Indigenous leaders including Marcia Langton (Foundation Chair in Australian Indigenous Studies at the University of Melbourne) and Aboriginal elder and Minister for Indigenous Australians, Ken Wyattsupported Pascoe’s Aboriginality based on his claim to community recognition.[34][35]”

He has said his connection is very distant. Mine could be too - only hinted at by my grandmother.

Just a few minutes on Wikipedia reveals why Bolt has such a hardon for Pascoe.

 

[Chief]

I'd be more inclined to read Bill Gammage's "The Biggest Estate on Earth: How Aborigines made Australia"

As Pascoe encourages people to do:

“One young scholar complained to me that he had been warned not to quote the work of the heretic Bill Gammage. Gammage recently released a book, The Biggest Estate (Allen & Unwin, 2011), and in my dream every Australian would read it. After reading my next book, Dark Emu: Agriculture or Accident.”

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Another perspective, in a letter in yesterday's Sun-Herald:

The problem with Australia Day isn't the date – it's the name. Anniversaries of major events in a country's history are observed around the world - think Columbus and Independence Days, Reunification Day, Bastille Day, Waitangi Day. There is no USA Day, no Germany Day, no France Day, no New Zealand Day because these nations sensibly stick to commemorating the actual events that helped to shape them. They also observe special days in honour of religious or social heroes, first nations peoples and military veterans. We could do that too.

January 26 saw the arrival of the First Fleet in Sydney Harbour and that's what it should be called – First Fleet Day. It brought a seismic shift to the country so it is fitting both to observe its anniversary and to recognise all of its impacts, negative and positive. But we shouldn't be tied to it (or any other day) as Australia Day. Australia didn't happen then and we haven't finished working on it yet.

 

[Rob R]

You just cited Mansell, WTF?
And you never "provided any facts".

Your insults implied that I had previously attacked MM which I never had.

Okay, if you dont call a statement from the Head of the Tasmanian Aboriginal Land Council saying he isnt a Tasmanian aborigine a relevant fact, I guess you could call it rvidencr instead

On SM-G570F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

His book has been independently checked and found to be bullshit.

That is bullshit.

 

[cartwright]

That is bullshit.

He hasn't read it.

 

[Chief]

Okay, if you dont call a statement from the Head of the Tasmanian Aboriginal Land Council saying he isnt a Tasmanian aborigine

But he is by recognition anyway. So, what's it to you?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

The funniest thing about Bruce Pascoe, who can't provide evidence of his Aboriginality, despite being the winner of an Indigenous Writers' Prize, is this letter he co-signed in 2011.

The judges of the David Unaipon Award, part of the Queensland Premier’s Literary Awards, have been in dispute with the awards committee about the legitimacy of entrants and the nature of submissions.​

​

The judges for the past four years have been concerned that the awards entrance criteria may allow people without an Aboriginal heritage to enter the event.​

​

Furthermore we feel that the original purpose of the award was that it should reflect Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander life in some way.​

​

A statutory declaration is not sufficient proof of identity, in our opinion. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are required to have a known relationship to community for their identity to be accepted by that community.​

​

The manuscripts entered in the competition should show some cultural association.​

​

We believe this is not an onerous requirement. Non-Indigenous writers might rebel at such an association, but Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders accept such rules as a part of Indigenous life.​

​

We urge the Queensland Premier’s Department to reconsider the advice of the judges.​

​

Until such requirements are met we will not act as judges for the David Unaipon Award and urge others to approach with caution before committing to an award we believe has been sullied by the Premier’s Department approach.​

​

Jennifer Kemarre Martinello and Bruce Pascoe​

p25

https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/the_koori_mail/499.pdf

Regardless of Pascoe's "degree"of aboriginality, you still haven't explained WTF any of this has remotely to do with with the content of his book.

Whether or not he claims to be aboriginal (officially, he says it's complicated - who'da thought - that when a race is subjugated by another race, when rape occurs on a widespread scale, when children are stolen from their parents, bloodlines tend to get a little complex - something you wannabe racial hardarses never acknowledge, until you perceive it's to the advantage of your argument, and then you're all over it like a rash), has nothing to do with his ability as a writer and researcher.

But unlike someone on here like Roylion, a poster who can mount an argument, you're not remotely interested in addressing the actual substance of Pascoe's findings.

No. Because you have nothing to counter with. It's all about shooting the messenger. Burger off.

 

[Scotland]

Another perspective, in a letter in yesterday's Sun-Herald:

The problem with Australia Day isn't the date – it's the name. Anniversaries of major events in a country's history are observed around the world - think Columbus and Independence Days, Reunification Day, Bastille Day, Waitangi Day. There is no USA Day, no Germany Day, no France Day, no New Zealand Day because these nations sensibly stick to commemorating the actual events that helped to shape them. They also observe special days in honour of religious or social heroes, first nations peoples and military veterans. We could do that too.

January 26 saw the arrival of the First Fleet in Sydney Harbour and that's what it should be called – First Fleet Day. It brought a seismic shift to the country so it is fitting both to observe its anniversary and to recognise all of its impacts, negative and positive. But we shouldn't be tied to it (or any other day) as Australia Day. Australia didn't happen then and we haven't finished working on it yet.

#ChangeTheName?

 

[Frank Bunn]

Regardless of Pascoe's "degree"of aboriginality, you still haven't explained WTF any of this has remotely to do with with the content of his book.

Whether or not he claims to be aboriginal (officially, he says it's complicated - who'da thought - that when a race is subjugated by another race, when rape occurs on a widespread scale, when children are stolen from their parents, bloodlines tend to get a little complex - something you wannabe racial hardarses never acknowledge, until you perceive it's to the advantage of your argument, and then you're all over it like a rash), has nothing to do with his ability as a writer and researcher.

But unlike someone on here like Roylion, a poster who can mount an argument, you're not remotely interested in addressing the actual substance of Pascoe's findings.

No. Because you have nothing to counter with. It's all about shooting the messenger. Burger off.

When you say 'degree"of aboriginality', it appears to be zero. And for a winner of an Indigenous Writers' Prize this gives him a massive credibility problem. Then when he writes a letter to the Koori Mail complaining about awards entrance criteria 'may allow people without an Aboriginal heritage to enter events'. Seriously, mind blown. The temerity of this bloke.

It's bizarre that you call me a racial hardarse when I think race is irrelevant in our modern society. Yet the requirement for proof of Aboriginality is a racial policy dependent on blood descent. The reason for the requirement for proof of Aboriginality is that there's a huge industry that relies on spending government funding based on Aboriginality.

I've seen the arguments put by Roylion and others in different places. The claims in Pascoe's book seem about as credible as his claim to be Aboriginal.

 

[Frank Bunn]

“However, Mansell acknowledged that some Indigenous leaders including Marcia Langton (Foundation Chair in Australian Indigenous Studies at the University of Melbourne) and Aboriginal elder and Minister for Indigenous Australians, Ken Wyattsupported Pascoe’s Aboriginality based on his claim to community recognition.[34][35]”

Community self-recognition for entitlement to government benefits. Sound legit.

He has said his connection is very distant. Mine could be too - only hinted at by my grandmother.

My grandmother hinted that I was part Irish and shouldn't drink cider. The point is - who cares!

 

[ferball]

Wouldn't a needs based program be better focused, less wasteful and more effective than this blanket approach of throwing resources at the increasing number of people claiming to be indigenous?

The existing government funding seems to be based around keeping a multi billion dollar industry running with no tangible benefit.

So increase the dole?

 

[ferball]

Another perspective, in a letter in yesterday's Sun-Herald:

The problem with Australia Day isn't the date – it's the name. Anniversaries of major events in a country's history are observed around the world - think Columbus and Independence Days, Reunification Day, Bastille Day, Waitangi Day. There is no USA Day, no Germany Day, no France Day, no New Zealand Day because these nations sensibly stick to commemorating the actual events that helped to shape them. They also observe special days in honour of religious or social heroes, first nations peoples and military veterans. We could do that too.

January 26 saw the arrival of the First Fleet in Sydney Harbour and that's what it should be called – First Fleet Day. It brought a seismic shift to the country so it is fitting both to observe its anniversary and to recognise all of its impacts, negative and positive. But we shouldn't be tied to it (or any other day) as Australia Day. Australia didn't happen then and we haven't finished working on it yet.

It's all down to the bicentenary, coming on the heels of the US one commemorating their independence from the UK. And the ending of the cultural cringe to a degree after we won a few Olympic gold medals, the Americas cup, some Hollywood thing and art^.

It was a half arsed attempt to install some genuine national pride. Unfortunately the half arsed nature of it has caused some real problems.

^Thanks Ken Done.

 

[ferball]

Roylion was quoting from a website called dark emu exposed, which makes the same argument, word for word almost that Roylion did. I dunno if it's his website or not.

There's probably lots of criticism of Pascoe on the site but I can't be bothered checking it out. That bit Roylion referred to is flawed, and based on that alone I'm not gonna bother with it. I haven't even read Pascoes book so I'm not wasting my time on flawed critiques of it.