Society/Culture Greens vow to move Australia Day

[Chief]

Community self-recognition for entitlement to government benefits. Sound legit.



My grandmother hinted that I was part Irish and shouldn't drink cider. The point is - who cares!

You, obviously.

 

[Roylion]

Roylion was quoting from a website called dark emu exposed, which makes the same argument, word for word almost that Roylion did. I dunno if it's his website or not.

My point is (and always has been) is that no historical work (including Pascoe's) can be left uncritically examined. Claiming that Pascoe offers the unvarnished truth and that his work is 'game-changing' is overwought. There are legitimate criticisms of the way Pascoe uses / edits his sources to mount his argument.

That bit Roylion referred to is flawed, and based on that alone I'm not gonna bother with it.

How do you know it's flawed?

I haven't even read Pascoes book so I'm not wasting my time on flawed critiques of it.

You haven't read Pascoe's book (I have), nor the criticisms of it, yet you still offer comment on it?

 

[ferball]

My point is (and always has been) is that no historical work (including Pascoe's) can be left uncritically examined. Claiming that Pascoe offers the unvarnished truth and that his work is 'game-changing' is overwought. There are legitimate criticisms of the way Pascoe uses / edits his sources to mount his argument.



How do you know it's flawed?



You haven't read Pascoe's book (I have), nor the criticisms of it, yet you still offer comment on it?

I haven't made any comment on his book. Just what is typed here. I have read more criticisms of his book than the book because they are in the public discussion at the moment.

Didn't that fella you cited, RG, claim the species of yam the mob in wa were cultivating was introduced to them by survivors from the Batavia, along with cultivation techniques cited by Pascoe?

How is that possible when the species they cultivate is a local species, Dioscorea Hastifolia, cultivated from south of Perth all the way to where that mob live?

Aren't the cultivation techniques similar long that entire Coastline? To me that sounds at odds with his claims of Dutch influence.

And to your first point..

No one is saying Pascoe is offering the unvarnished truth. They are saying its a game changer in that it challenges the current consensus about how indigenous Australians lived and what level of sophistication and complexity their societies had and provides evidence that does actually challenge those previous consensus views.

However as a general principle .... Yeah. Don't accept anything uncritically, including historical accounts of things.

 

[FredLeDeux]

You haven't read Pascoe's book (I have), nor the criticisms of it, yet you still offer comment on it?

Bolt hasn't and does.

 

[Power Raid]

Move Australia Day to 26th September

 

[EasternTiger]

Move Australia Day to 26th September

Tremendous outside the box thinking! A celebration of football and the contribution of the indigenous community to our great game, as we come together as one for the greatest game on Earth.

You could even rename it Richmond Rioli Day.

One of the best ideas I have seen on Bigfooty nay the entire internet.

You have even outdone me brilliant idea of running the Australia Day early Jan for the SummerNats weekend.

Bravo sir.

 

[ferball]

Bolt hasn't and does.

I just want to reiterate that I haven't said anything about the book itself.

 

[Roylion]

Bolt hasn't and does.

I don't pay much attention to what Bolt says on a range of issues.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I don't pay much attention to what Bolt says on a range of issues.

It's the alt left generic response when they run out of programmed opinions. These folks are of the belief that the mere mention of that single four letter word has the power to automatically invalidate any discussion that intellectually encroaches upon their "feelings".

They pay more attention to Bolt than the "conservatives".

 

[Kram]

It's the alt left generic response when they run out of programmed opinions. These folks are of the belief that the mere mention of that single four letter word has the power to automatically invalidate any discussion that intellectually encroaches upon their "feelings".

They pay more attention to Bolt than the "conservatives".

That poster iirc was the one that got worked up into a lather in the Bolt is a troll thread when I mention that the triggered far left are the bloke's lifeblood.

 

[Scotland]

'But Andrew Bolt did it...' reminds me of when I was a kid and trying to justify wanting to do something on the basis of some other kid. 'Well if Jimmy jumped off a bridge would you do that?'

 

[Roylion]

I haven't made any comment on his book. Just what is typed here. I have read more criticisms of his book than the book because they are in the public discussion at the moment.

So you would understand what I'm saying.

Didn't that fella you cited, RG, claim the species of yam the mob in wa were cultivating was introduced to them by survivors from the Batavia, along with cultivation techniques cited by Pascoe?

I mention Rupert Gerritson in particular because his work was influential in the shaping of Pascoe's work. But yes that is his argument.

How is that possible when the species they cultivate is a local species, Dioscorea Hastifolia, cultivated from south of Perth all the way to where that mob live?

Gerritsen develops his theory further with part of his evidence being the isolated occurrence of this variety of yam, Dioscorea hastifolia, around south-western Australia, separated by a great distance from its natural distribution in northern Australia and Asia. Evidence is given that it did not migrate to this isolated pocket of south-western Australia naturally, so he suggests it must therefore have arrived by some other means, such as possibly via Dutch castaways.

Gerritson argues that Dioscorea Hastifolia in the west coast of Australia is highly unusual because it is so far removed from the contiguous distributions elsewhere.

He (like Pascoe) uses explorer George Grey's journal as a source for his argument.

April 4 1839: we soon fell in with the native path we quitted yesterday, but now became quite wide, well beaten and differing altogether by its permanent character, from any I had seen in the southern portion of this continent... And as we wound along the native path my wonder augmented, the path increased in breadth and its beaten appearance, whilst along the side of it we found frequent wells, some of which were ten and twelve feet [3-4 m] deep, and were altogether executed in a superior manner. We now crossed the dry bed of a stream, and from that emerged upon a tract of light fertile soil quite overrun with warran plants [a species of yam plant - Dioscorea hastifolia], the root of which is a favourite article of food with the natives..."

Dioscorea hastifolia is one member of the tropical genus Enantiophyllum, described as "... the most tropical yams". The global distribution of the Enantiophyllum genus and therefore all types of Dioscoreaceae including hastifolia, (but excluding Dioscorea alata an agricultural species) is illustrated below



So Gerrison's theory (and remember Pascoe has used significant parts of Gerritson's theory as a basis for some of his information in Dark Emu) is as follows.

The map above shows there are two main areas of distribution, in Africa and Asia/Oceania separated by the deserts of the Middle East. Australia, however was completely isolated between 65 and 20 million years ago, the period in which the Dioscoreaceae were evolving. As Australia drifted north it entered the desert belt, now stretching across the middle of the continent, as it began to collide with the Asia/Pacific region. Unless Dioscorea hastifolia or an ancestral form was able to naturally diffuse along the island chains of south-east Asia, enter Australia and then cross this desert belt in the last few million years, as some have speculated, it is difficult to envisage the plant's migration to its one isolated position in Western Australia, was other than by human agency. The deserts of the Middle East acted as a barrier dividing the African and Asian distribution of Enantiophyllum for 15 million years until traders began transporting them around in in the last thousand years or so.

As well as this the archaeological, botanical and ethnographic evidence indicates that distribution of the genus east of Indonesia has in fact only arisen in the last two thousand years, as the result of human agency, which explains the presence of species such as Dioscorea bulbifera and Dioscorea transversa in the humid tropical and sub-tropical coastal regions of north and northeast Australia. (as per the map above). The yams are tropical plants which require water in the growing season but can readily evolve in response to a dry season.

It is therefore highly improbable that Dioscorea hastifolia could have reached its modern distribution by crossing the Australian desert in the last 2,000 years and must have arrived by some other means.

When Pelsaert marooned two Dutch mutineers in the aftermath of the Batavia Mutiny they were given "... a Champan provided with everything." Pelsaert had returned two months earlier on his rescue mission in the Sardam, having come directly from Java, where the ship had been requisitioned and provisioned before sailing. With numerous species of yam from the Enantiophyllum genus found in Java, and it being common practice to use yams in victualling ships in the 17th century it is quite probable that the two mutineers were put ashore with a supply of yams as food. The obvious inference from this is that they introduced the yam to the Nhanda, along with the knowledge of its means of propagation. The yam just happened to be the variety or ancestor of hastifolia or due to different climatic conditions evolved slightly to cope with this and were given a different botanical name as a result when discovered and categorised by later botanists.

Aren't the cultivation techniques similar long that entire Coastline? To me that sounds at odds with his claims of Dutch influence

See above. The Dutch had contact with multiple points along the coastline. 79 Dutch individuals are known to have landed alive on the western Australian coastline from shipwrecks or by other means.

No one is saying Pascoe is offering the unvarnished truth. They are saying its a game changer in that it challenges the current consensus about how indigenous Australians lived and what level of sophistication and complexity their societies had and provides evidence that does actually challenge those previous consensus views.

Pascoe isn't the first to suggest this and as I've said his impartial use of sources has been questioned.

However as a general principle .... Yeah. Don't accept anything uncritically, including historical accounts of things.

Which is my main point.

 

[NSWCROW]

NSWCROW complains about bolt too much !!!!!

Thoughts and prayers lads

 

[Kram]

Great episode of Paulie Cheeseburger tonight NSWCROW.

 

[NSWCROW]

Great episode of Paulie Cheeseburger tonight NSWCROW.

 

[rank and file]

I see the NRL boys aren't going to sing the national anthem at the all-stars game.
So, do we now need a bran nue song to go with a bran nue dae?

 

[Off The Couch]

I see the NRL boys aren't going to sing the national anthem at the all-stars game.
So, do we now need a bran nue song to go with a bran nue dae?

yes

out of curiosity is the anthem played at every NRL game? Makes me wonder why the afl don’t as well

FWIW we won’t be taking no ******* pledge either

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

It's all down to the bicentenary, coming on the heels of the US one commemorating their independence from the UK. And the ending of the cultural cringe to a degree after we won a few Olympic gold medals, the Americas cup, some Hollywood thing and art^.

It was a half arsed attempt to install some genuine national pride. Unfortunately the half arsed nature of it has caused some real problems.

^Thanks Ken Done.

Agree 100%

 

[Roylion]

Thank you for showing an example of how Pascoe may have over-egged his point from time to time. You have rightly shown how we need to be circumspect always, though I don't think it's a clincher. And as I said, I'm not aware of a howl of protest from professional historians. (Do point me to this howl if it's passed me by.)

The book has been out since 2014, so it’s not as if they haven’t had plenty of time to shoot his claims down in flames (and I do recall one journalist - was it Rick Morton? - recently spent several days checking Pascoe's sources in the various national and state archives, and pronounced them 100% solid.)

Just as an an addendum to this earlier discussion, two academics Peter Sutton, one of Australia’s leading anthropologists and archaeologist Keryn Walshe have written Farmers or Hunter-Gatherers? The Dark Emu Debate which is to be released next week by Melbourne University Press. This new work heavily criticises and rebuts Pascoe's 'Dark Emu'.

The Age has a couple of articles on the new book if you're interested.

Debunking Dark Emu (Good Weekend The Age) Saturday 12/6/2021

Anthropologist and archaeologist say Dark Emu was littered with weak evidence and unsourced claims Saturday 12/6/2021

 

[theyellowsash]

I see the NRL boys aren't going to sing the national anthem at the all-stars game.
So, do we now need a bran nue song to go with a bran nue dae?

Anyone who doesn't think we need a new anthem doesnt truly love the country that thing is an abomination.

 

[The King!]

Anyone who doesn't think we need a new anthem doesnt truly love the country that thing is an abomination.

Lol yeah round them up I guess

What a stupid thing to say , like a song and you don’t truly love the country

There’s some moronic s**t on the internet but you probably win today

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Lol yeah round them up I guess

What a stupid thing to say , like a song and you don’t truly love the country

There’s some moronic sh*t on the internet but you probably win today

It's a joke, why are you so annoyed by it?

 

[Leeda]

Lol yeah round them up I guess

What a stupid thing to say , like a song and you don’t truly love the country

There’s some moronic sh*t on the internet but you probably win today

Shattered arent you.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Just as an an addendum to this earlier discussion, two academics Peter Sutton, one of Australia’s leading anthropologists and archaeologist Keryn Walshe have written Farmers or Hunter-Gatherers? The Dark Emu Debate which is to be released next week by Melbourne University Press. This new work heavily criticises and rebuts Pascoe's 'Dark Emu'.

The Age has a couple of articles on the new book if you're interested.

Debunking Dark Emu (Good Weekend The Age) Saturday 12/6/2021

Anthropologist and archaeologist say Dark Emu was littered with weak evidence and unsourced claims Saturday 12/6/2021

Thanks I’ll check it out.

 

[Kwality]

Thanks I’ll check it out.

roylion

Be interested in your views SBD.
I was initially very sceptical of Pascoes claims but after reading Dark Emu I'm no longer a sceptic. Our country has such a wide range of climate so why would one life style fit all.