RussellEbertHandball
Flick pass expert
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Analysis Ground ball gets - why are we so shithouse at them?
- Thread starter RussellEbertHandball
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Too many receivers I think. It almost looks like if one guy goes in the for ball, all others have been instructed to stay out and receive. And as much as it pains me to say, a few of our players can tend to be a bit soft.
RussellEbertHandball
Flick pass expert
- Thread starter
- #4
Its more than that.
Its the poor ball handling.
Esava on the members wing. Sweet wants to get groundballs rather than block and let the little blokes get them.
Aliir fumbles everything too often then takes a great intercept grab and you think why aren't your hands like that all the time.
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Definitely need another midfielder.
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Agree with this.
I think it's also a symptoms of our defensive mindset. Don't go in and get the ball, corral the opposition when they get it and force the turnover.
Which is fine until you have to play a good team who won't turn it over and you can't get your hands on the ball to save your life.
It's why I think we need to start experimenting and finding different lineups now rather than sticking with the status quo which is what the mantra of Hinkley is.
Move big bodies of Bergman (with BZT back), Jones and/or Powell Pepper on ball. Try Visentini instead of Sweet for a couple of games. Maybe stop trying to make Meade work.
We're not going to win finals being so bad at ground ball.
Move big bodies of Bergman (with BZT back), Jones and/or Powell Pepper on ball. Try Visentini instead of Sweet for a couple of games. Maybe stop trying to make Meade work.
We're not going to win finals being so bad at ground ball.
A few reasons come to mind:
1. We are an inconsistent team. Mental application drops off not just week to week but also within games and quarters.
2. We do have a few players who are no good at ground balls. Georgiades, Jones, Aliir in particular.
3. We are being killed by the umpires so far this year. Worst kick differential in the league currently.
1. We are an inconsistent team. Mental application drops off not just week to week but also within games and quarters.
2. We do have a few players who are no good at ground balls. Georgiades, Jones, Aliir in particular.
3. We are being killed by the umpires so far this year. Worst kick differential in the league currently.
Our achilles heel for many years, players we recruit, how we train, how where coached. Number one thing to look for when drafting for the AFL, is kids with clean hands who dont double grab or fumble.
RussellEbertHandball
Flick pass expert
- Thread starter
- #10
Below is audio/video of Daniel Hoyne of Champion Data on his regular Tuesday segment on SEN explaining how bad our ground ball gets (GBGs), in defence were against Collingwood at the MCG in Rd 7 2024 when we got smashed 12.8 81 to 17.21 123 but they kicked like shit for goal and they should have kicked 25 goals and beat us by 80 to 100 pts.
Ever since I listened to this I have become a bit obsessed watching our GBGs and how good or bad they are. I used to write in here how much we fumbled and bumbled the ball, aren't clean with our hands etc, but now say to myself or mates, we had another useless ground ball gets day.
This should start at 10,40, if I've embedded it correctly when Hoyney talked about us last year. The discussion goes to about 16.30.
Lost GBGs in defensive 50 by - 15, the 2nd worst result ever recorded by Champion Data in 25 years at the time.
Another bit of analysis from Daniel Hoyne last September and why finals is different. 80% of finals games are chaos game where as minor round its 50% chaos and 50% control- ie the ball is on the ground a lot more in finals, and 8 of the 9 finals are played at night when its dewy, and this fan (Edit its former Freo and Melbourne ruckman Jeff White), put Hoyney's words to footage of Geelong smashing us in the QF last year.
tribey, Coobk001 maybe this is why our daytime record at AO is so much better than our night time record - struggle mentally in the big games scheduled on Saturday nights in particular, and added to that, is our poor ability at GBGs made worse at night time.
Ever since I listened to this I have become a bit obsessed watching our GBGs and how good or bad they are. I used to write in here how much we fumbled and bumbled the ball, aren't clean with our hands etc, but now say to myself or mates, we had another useless ground ball gets day.
This should start at 10,40, if I've embedded it correctly when Hoyney talked about us last year. The discussion goes to about 16.30.
Lost GBGs in defensive 50 by - 15, the 2nd worst result ever recorded by Champion Data in 25 years at the time.
Another bit of analysis from Daniel Hoyne last September and why finals is different. 80% of finals games are chaos game where as minor round its 50% chaos and 50% control- ie the ball is on the ground a lot more in finals, and 8 of the 9 finals are played at night when its dewy, and this fan (Edit its former Freo and Melbourne ruckman Jeff White), put Hoyney's words to footage of Geelong smashing us in the QF last year.
tribey, Coobk001 maybe this is why our daytime record at AO is so much better than our night time record - struggle mentally in the big games scheduled on Saturday nights in particular, and added to that, is our poor ability at GBGs made worse at night time.
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Progressive Aggresion
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It doesn't matter how good your transition or setup is if you can't cleanly pick up the ball to kickstart it, and I feel like for years under pressure, our players have failed to time their GBGs in the contest or even from opposition turnover/chaos ball
Bad time to mention it because he actually had a really good game tonight, but SPP has had this issue for a long time. Alongside Georgiades. Just can't time their run to allow for an easy sweeping pickup. Too many fumbles. Wines has days where he is both brilliant and terrible with this as well.
Bad time to mention it because he actually had a really good game tonight, but SPP has had this issue for a long time. Alongside Georgiades. Just can't time their run to allow for an easy sweeping pickup. Too many fumbles. Wines has days where he is both brilliant and terrible with this as well.
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Port really does need to dedicate some drills on getting the ground ball because for whatever reason, this issue has yet to be rectified and its been happening for the past few seasons. Port's ball handling skills is so bad and they do not have the personnel to address it currently.
DBJ was our ground ball specialist until he learned you can get a game without doing the hard stuff.
At the moment Lachie Jones gets the most for us outside of the midfield, followed by Richards up forward
At the moment Lachie Jones gets the most for us outside of the midfield, followed by Richards up forward
When Georgiades approaches a ground ball at times he almost freezes then looks like a toddler learning to walk then the oppo shuts it down or zooms off with the ball. Bizarre.
Aliir Geo and SPP are comical.
Will lose ground ball gets 10 out of 10 times.
Will lose ground ball gets 10 out of 10 times.
- Jun 12, 2015
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Aliir becomes a potato as soon as the hits the ground. I feel that Georgiades might be thinking too much about whether he'll re-injure his knee and perhaps that is subconscious affecting his ability to win ground ball.
As for SPP, his ball handling skills is just poor all round. Remember how SPP fumbled a handball against Essendon earlier this year when JHF dropped the mark and slipped and handballed it to SPP who fumbled it and went out of bounds for a throw-in? It's probably one of the main reasons why he will never become an inside bull.
tribey
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Seems like the club’s fabled Data Warehouse™ could do with some renos.
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I was expecting a long post full of data…
I posted this a couple of weeks ago in the let’s talk thread, more focussed on contested in general but paints the same picture:
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RussellEbertHandball
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Can we recruit Bobby Hill? The bloke has no problem picking up a ground ball at night, bit slippery at full speed.
Amazing to watch.
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So Sam Mitchell made this a focus for hawthorn when he started his coaching tenure. Seems like Carr will need to as well. However, if it was this simple, every club would make it a priority.
Would be interesting to see if it’s been the same over the whole Hinkley period or just the last 4-6 years.
Part has to be players, part has to be skills, part is fitness, part is mental and a part is game plan.
Would imagine most talls are not great in this area whereas your smalls should be excellent. I can’t see why guys like JHF, Butters, Rozee, Bergman, etc (who are elite) would be poor in such an essential part of the game. Maybe we could draft some tougher, more competitive types but can’t just be the players.
Skills - well our skills have been a bugbear on the forum forever. I don’t know if it’s as simple as training them - but several facets, like goal kicking, are also poor.
Fitness is an obvious one. If you’re not strong, fast, agile, fit enough, you’ll fumble or just won’t get to the ball first.
Game plan is tricky. Geelong and Brissy have both had more control style game plans over the years and it’s worked for them. They’ve been able to adjust during finals, win the chaos elements and get it back on their terms. So I don’t think it’s completely game plan.
The final bit is mindset. I personally believe the club, from top to bottom, coaches, players, everyone, really struggle with this. We’ve seen great kicks for goal miss. We’ve seen good players fumble. We’ve crumbled time and time again during big games and also fired up for other games. The club hasn’t worked this part out. We haven’t been able to get to the point where the players are ruthless, competitive, fierce and focused on the field, for the majority of games. Standards haven’t been set and adhered to.
Would be interesting to see if it’s been the same over the whole Hinkley period or just the last 4-6 years.
Part has to be players, part has to be skills, part is fitness, part is mental and a part is game plan.
Would imagine most talls are not great in this area whereas your smalls should be excellent. I can’t see why guys like JHF, Butters, Rozee, Bergman, etc (who are elite) would be poor in such an essential part of the game. Maybe we could draft some tougher, more competitive types but can’t just be the players.
Skills - well our skills have been a bugbear on the forum forever. I don’t know if it’s as simple as training them - but several facets, like goal kicking, are also poor.
Fitness is an obvious one. If you’re not strong, fast, agile, fit enough, you’ll fumble or just won’t get to the ball first.
Game plan is tricky. Geelong and Brissy have both had more control style game plans over the years and it’s worked for them. They’ve been able to adjust during finals, win the chaos elements and get it back on their terms. So I don’t think it’s completely game plan.
The final bit is mindset. I personally believe the club, from top to bottom, coaches, players, everyone, really struggle with this. We’ve seen great kicks for goal miss. We’ve seen good players fumble. We’ve crumbled time and time again during big games and also fired up for other games. The club hasn’t worked this part out. We haven’t been able to get to the point where the players are ruthless, competitive, fierce and focused on the field, for the majority of games. Standards haven’t been set and adhered to.
I keep thinking back to the 2023 round 10 game against Melbourne at AO. Pissing down with rain, Rozee kicks the sealer and gets all the acclaim, yet so few gave credit to JHF for his ultra clean pickup of a wet ball, in the rain, under pressure, with the poise and ability to fire a quick handball off to Rozee in the first place.
A lot of reasons but you could say that overall we don't do the simple and easy things well.
If you look at Collingwood or Hawthorn, they do the fundamentals well. We don't. I think the ground ball gets is indicative of this. For example, our KPD drop uncontested marks. Our KPF aren't great kicks at goal. There is something fundamentally wrong with our tackling. Just the simple things.
Adding to that is Hinkley has no idea what he is doing.
I hope Carr focuses heavily on skills and the chaos ball part of our game and gets the right guys in to execute that style of gameplan.
If you look at Collingwood or Hawthorn, they do the fundamentals well. We don't. I think the ground ball gets is indicative of this. For example, our KPD drop uncontested marks. Our KPF aren't great kicks at goal. There is something fundamentally wrong with our tackling. Just the simple things.
Adding to that is Hinkley has no idea what he is doing.
I hope Carr focuses heavily on skills and the chaos ball part of our game and gets the right guys in to execute that style of gameplan.
Something that gets overlooked is our total lack of blocks laid by team mates. It buys the ball winner more time to gather (and less pressure), yet our players choose to peel off and try get the open handball receive after the other guy has won the ball.
The number of times a simple block would have helped the ball carrier run into open air but we didn't is astounding. Is this a result of far too many free kicks being paid against us? I doubt it, but possible. Often these blocks don't need to be a Byron Pickett style battering ram, just block the path ffs.
The number of times a simple block would have helped the ball carrier run into open air but we didn't is astounding. Is this a result of far too many free kicks being paid against us? I doubt it, but possible. Often these blocks don't need to be a Byron Pickett style battering ram, just block the path ffs.
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