GWS is the AFL's biggest problem - not North, GC, or Tassie

[KinderSmock]

Advantages of living in Sydney and around Sydney sure it has worked for the swans over the years. But I’m pretty sure players are not lining up to live in the western Sydney area

It doesn't have the aspects like the CBD does. Fewer nightclubs, more families, etc.

 

[KinderSmock]

Yes, but it was a very high rating prelim - that's kinda the point.

Think the romanticism of the two sides helped. It was at Spotless stadium, too so less accessible so there were fewer fans who'd normally watch live. Footy finals will always attract a lot of people and in 2016 ratings were still high. Now Kayo exists, ratings are more and more irrelevant.

 

[Walshawk]

Yes, but it was a very high rating prelim - that's kinda the point.

That game was all about the Bulldogs. In an AFL ratings first, the post match show actually rated higher than the match, due to the Doggie win and subsequent fan reaction. How it rated in Sydney compared to other prelims would be the only relevant point.

 

[Walshawk]

It doesn't have the aspects like the CBD does. Fewer nightclubs, more families, etc.

Fewer nightclubs and more families should suit the modern AFL player.

 

[Rob]

It doesn't have the aspects like the CBD does. Fewer nightclubs, more families, etc.

The Giants training ground is 17km from the Sydney CBD. It's roughly the same distance as Essendons training ground is from Melbourne.

You're talking like it's in another time zone.

 

[KinderSmock]

The Giants training ground is 17km from the Sydney CBD. It's roughly the same distance as Essendons training ground is from Melbourne.

You're talking like it's in another time zone.

It just feels further and the club would fewer contacts with local publicans than Melbourne's culture.

 

[RedV3x]

Advantages of living in Sydney and around Sydney sure it has worked for the swans over the years.

You think so ? I remember a thing called COLA.

But I’m pretty sure players are not lining up to live in the western Sydney area

Western Sydney is a large area and as any Sydneysider would know, it has some exceptionally attractive areas.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I believe 12 k was your average for attendance and of course a preliminary final is going to rate well no matter who is playing

The Giants' 2019 crowds definitely shouldn't be shat on.

Sure, they "only" averaged 12,411 at Giants Stadium, but that's 53% higher than their first season. They were showing real growth pre-pandemic.

In 2019, the Giants had higher Sydney crowds than a third of Sydney-based NRL teams.

The pandemic really screwed them over. They didn't have the dyed-in-the-wool supporters of other teams yet, so they didn't bounce back the same.

If the Giants had actually won the grand final, and the pandemic never occurred, the Giants would be in a very different situation.

 

[Falconista]

The Giants' 2019 crowds definitely shouldn't be shat on.

Sure, they "only" averaged 12,411 at Giants Stadium, but that's 53% higher than their first season. They were showing real growth pre-pandemic.

In 2019, the Giants had higher Sydney crowds than a third of Sydney-based NRL teams.

The pandemic really screwed them over. They didn't have the dyed-in-the-wool supporters of other teams yet, so they didn't bounce back the same.

If the Giants had actually won the grand final, and the pandemic never occurred, the Giants would be in a very different situation.

It feels from a distance too that Penrith turning into a NRL powerhouse in that period hasn't helped.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

The Giants' 2019 crowds definitely shouldn't be shat on.

Sure, they "only" averaged 12,411 at Giants Stadium, but that's 53% higher than their first season. They were showing real growth pre-pandemic.

In 2019, the Giants had higher Sydney crowds than a third of Sydney-based NRL teams.

The pandemic really screwed them over. They didn't have the dyed-in-the-wool supporters of other teams yet, so they didn't bounce back the same.

If the Giants had actually won the grand final, and the pandemic never occurred, the Giants would be in a very different situation.

I think your looking through rose coloured glasses when you look at the population they have to draw from 12 k is in no way adequate nrl clubs can operate of these numbers due to huge profits they make off there leaves clubs and there running costs are a lot less. remember the giants couldn’t even sell there full allocation of grand final tickets that season

 

[Canberra Pear]

I think your looking through rose coloured glasses when you look at the population they have to draw from 12 k is in no way adequate nrl clubs can operate of these numbers due to huge profits they make off there leaves clubs and there running costs are a lot less. remember the giants couldn’t even sell there full allocation of grand final tickets that season

I think your looking through anti-GWS glasses.

Western Sydney was always going to be the harder nut to crack. If you asked the AFL at the end of 2012 if they'd be happy with 53% growth in less than a decade, they would've jumped at it.

The total population means s**t-all as a measure of success. All it means is it has greater potential. People don't scold the Lions for getting lower crowds than the Crows.

The NRL and AFL and funded differently, GWS gets money from broadcasting rights, not leagues clubs. The NRL clubs will also get a rude shock if the NSW govt ever grow some balls about pokies.

And so what if the Giants couldn't sell all the grand final tickets. That's 17k people all having to pay about $1000 each for tickets, flights and accommodation, all on a week's notice. And they're mostly from Australia's most famously working class area.

The pandemic has stalled things, but I would have said the Giants were tracking nicely before it.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

I think your looking through anti-GWS glasses.

Western Sydney was always going to be the harder nut to crack. If you asked the AFL at the end of 2012 if they'd be happy with 53% growth in less than a decade, they would've jumped at it.

The total population means s**t-all as a measure of success. All it means is it has greater potential. People don't scold the Lions for getting lower crowds than the Crows.

The NRL and AFL and funded differently, GWS gets money from broadcasting rights, not leagues clubs. The NRL clubs will also get a rude shock if the NSW govt ever grow some balls about pokies.

And so what if the Giants couldn't sell all the grand final tickets. That's 17k people all having to pay about $1000 each for tickets, flights and accommodation, all on a week's notice. And they're mostly from Australia's most famously working class area.

The pandemic has stalled things, but I would have said the Giants were tracking nicely before it.

Tracking nicely that’s living in denial right there with gws looking like going down the ladder over coming seasons things are looking like going from bad to worse . They are also currently relying on Canberra way to much

 

[Canberra Pear]

Tracking nicely that’s living in denial right there with gws looking like going down the ladder over coming seasons things are looking like going from bad to worse . They are also currently relying on Canberra way to much

I think you're deliberately twisting things.

I'm not saying the Giants are doing well, I'm saying they were.

I said, based on their pre-pandemic trajectory, they would have been considered to be tracking nicely.

Yes, they're doing pretty s**t right now. Yes, they've probably got a rough few years ahead. None of which has any bearing on what I was talking about.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

I think you're deliberately twisting things.

I'm not saying the Giants are doing well, I'm saying they were.

I said, based on their pre-pandemic trajectory, they would have been considered to be tracking nicely.

Yes, they're doing pretty s**t right now. Yes, they've probably got a rough few years ahead. None of which has any bearing on what I was talking about.

They were tracking pretty well on field I’m not talking about that I don’t see how they were ever off field remember the numbers you mentioned are embarrassingly low for a professional sporting team in what’s supposed to be a huge market this isn’t a brand new club there over a decade in now there definitely well short of we’re they should be .

 

[madmug]

The Giants' 2019 crowds definitely shouldn't be shat on.

Sure, they "only" averaged 12,411 at Giants Stadium, but that's 53% higher than their first season. They were showing real growth pre-pandemic.

In 2019, the Giants had higher Sydney crowds than a third of Sydney-based NRL teams.

The pandemic really screwed them over. They didn't have the dyed-in-the-wool supporters of other teams yet, so they didn't bounce back the same.

If the Giants had actually won the grand final, and the pandemic never occurred, the Giants would be in a very different situation.

What if's aren't really relevant.

The Covid19 infections & the variant waves are the reality of the Pandemic . Losing a GF shouldn't really hurt them long term, it showed they had developed & won finals games to get to the GF.

Comparing GWS memberships to local NRL clubs shows good numbers, so is a positive.

Its hard to find comparable financial statements. It seems the NRL clubs run on around $30mil. Some 50% of that is NRL grants for many clubs, some get good grants from leagues club pokies. The biggest memberships seem to be near 30k. So Sydney is a different beast to Aussie Rules areas.

One might suggest NM & St Kilda are big concerns for the AFL. 100 year old clubs.

So one might suggest GWS will probably never be individually financially self sustainable. Swans sucked up most local AFL supporters years ago & still has the South Melbourne link. So GWS really are on their own!! The Sydney media aren't going to help much.

So if they are to be, the AFL will need to help them.

Already said, FFS GIVE THEM 11 HOME GAMES!!!! Look for a marque player or two. I just don't get the AFL's approach to sending games out of their area!!!

 

[Walshawk]

The Giants' 2019 crowds definitely shouldn't be shat on.

Sure, they "only" averaged 12,411 at Giants Stadium, but that's 53% higher than their first season. They were showing real growth pre-pandemic.

In 2019, the Giants had higher Sydney crowds than a third of Sydney-based NRL teams.

The pandemic really screwed them over. They didn't have the dyed-in-the-wool supporters of other teams yet, so they didn't bounce back the same.

If the Giants had actually won the grand final, and the pandemic never occurred, the Giants would be in a very different situation.

GWS Sydney home crowds in 2012 were about the same as 2019. It is disingenuous to exclude the ANZ games from 2012 figures.

 

[Kwality]

You think so ? I remember a thing called COLA.



Western Sydney is a large area and as any Sydneysider would know, it has some exceptionally attractive areas.

Proximity to the training facility is an issue, particularly for interstate draftees no matter where the club is. Sydney just increases the size of the problem.
Its base at Homebush would be well placed. Its not as if players run a 9-5 schedule.

 

[Canberra Pear]

GWS Sydney home crowds in 2012 were about the same as 2019. It is disingenuous to exclude the ANZ games from 2012 figures.

That's fair, I was a bit lazy just counting the Showgrounds. I also didn't count the game at Blacktown. The 2012 ANZ game also skews crowds. 38k crowd for their opening match, and it was against the Swans.

But since 2012, Western Sydney crowds (including the ANZ game) grew 5.8% to 2019 (by 689).

From 2013, Western Sydney crowds grew by 22% to 2019 (by 2,234). 2013's probably more telling as it doesn't have the novelty factor of the opening game. I still maintain the AFL would've been pretty happy with that growth. Sure they would've liked more, but it's definite growth.

What if's aren't really relevant.

The Covid19 infections & the variant waves are the reality of the Pandemic . Losing a GF shouldn't really hurt them long term, it showed they had developed & won finals games to get to the GF.

Comparing GWS memberships to local NRL clubs shows good numbers, so is a positive.

Its hard to find comparable financial statements. It seems the NRL clubs run on around $30mil. Some 50% of that is NRL grants for many clubs, some get good grants from leagues club pokies. The biggest memberships seem to be near 30k. So Sydney is a different beast to Aussie Rules areas.

One might suggest NM & St Kilda are big concerns for the AFL. 100 year old clubs.

So one might suggest GWS will probably never be individually financially self sustainable. Swans sucked up most local AFL supporters years ago & still has the South Melbourne link. So GWS really are on their own!! The Sydney media aren't going to help much.

So if they are to be, the AFL will need to help them.

Already said, FFS GIVE THEM 11 HOME GAMES!!!! Look for a marque player or two. I just don't get the AFL's approach to sending games out of their area!!!

I agree the what ifs are useless, but I only brought them up because Tasmania Saint shat on their 2019 crowds, and I was using them to show there trajectory they were on.

100% agree with the way forward. They need to be fully in Western Sydney and I'd love to see Clarko up there.

 

[Canberra Pear]

They were tracking pretty well on field I’m not talking about that I don’t see how they were ever off field remember the numbers you mentioned are embarrassingly low for a professional sporting team in what’s supposed to be a huge market this isn’t a brand new club there over a decade in now there definitely well short of we’re they should be .

I was also talking about off-field. All of my numbers are regarding GWS off-field. And all the numbers showed GWS growing off-field.

It's a generational project. The AFL isn't expecting GWS to be a big club yet and doesn't expect them to even be middle-range for another decade or two.

I cannot stress how little the large population matters in this discussion. They are in rugby league territory. That's like saying "The Swans get lower crowds than Geelong, but Sydney's so much bigger!" or "The Lions get lower crowds than Port, but they've got a whole big city to themselves!" It simply doesn't matter, they are not comparable. The only reason the population is important is potential. GWS has the potential to be a big club.

 

[Walshawk]

That's fair, I was a bit lazy just counting the Showgrounds. I also didn't count the game at Blacktown. The 2012 ANZ game also skews crowds. 38k crowd for their opening match, and it was against the Swans.

But since 2012, Western Sydney crowds (including the ANZ game) grew 5.8% to 2019 (by 689).

From 2013, Western Sydney crowds grew by 22% to 2019 (by 2,234). 2013's probably more telling as it doesn't have the novelty factor of the opening game. I still maintain the AFL would've been pretty happy with that growth. Sure they would've liked more, but it's definite growth.



I agree the what ifs are useless, but I only brought them up because Tasmania Saint shat on their 2019 crowds, and I was using them to show there trajectory they were on.

100% agree with the way forward. They need to be fully in Western Sydney and I'd love to see Clarko up there.

I reckon that the AFL would be shattered that their 'Western Sydney' team is drawing less to games than the Kangaroos did @ SCG in the last 90s. 5.8% is terrible given their on field success and tens and tens of millions spent. And don't mention the TV ratings.

 

[Gigantor]

I reckon that the AFL would be shattered that their 'Western Sydney' team is drawing less to games than the Kangaroos did @ SCG in the last 90s. 5.8% is terrible given their on field success and tens and tens of millions spent. And don't mention the TV ratings.

TV ratings aren't that bad.
There have been rounds over the last few years where the ratings for a GWS game in Sydney alone have been higher than the A-League's national ratings.
Also, the GWS crowds pre-COVID were matching North from that period AND North had the advantage of playing at the SCG AND it was a premiership year for them!
I would have thought the more surprising thing out of all of this is that at the height of their onfield success, North felt the need to play home games in Sydney, having already existed in the biggest footy market in the land for 125+ years at that point.
And people reckon GWS shouldn't play home games at nearby Canberra? a mere 2 hours from Campbelltown (same amount of time it takes to drive from Lonnie to Hobart)

 

[Walshawk]

TV ratings aren't that bad.
There have been rounds over the last few years where the ratings for a GWS game in Sydney alone have been higher than the A-League's national ratings.
Also, the GWS crowds pre-COVID were matching North from that period AND North had the advantage of playing at the SCG AND it was a premiership year for them!
I would have thought the more surprising thing out of all of this is that at the height of their onfield success, North felt the need to play home games in Sydney, having already existed in the biggest footy market in the land for 125+ years at that point.
And people reckon GWS shouldn't play home games at nearby Canberra? a mere 2 hours from Campbelltown (same amount of time it takes to drive from Lonnie to Hobart)

How fast are you driving to get to Canberra in 2 hours! Anyway, Campbelltown isn't really western Sydney. You could not get from Parramatta or Homebush to Canberra in under three hours. How many people do reckon are making that journey?

 

[pz5151]

The reason the ground was full was because all the opposition supporters rocked up to see their team smash us. The Hawks didn't have anywhere near the number of supporters as most opposition clubs. Not until the mid 60's did Hawthorn's then Treasurer Phil Ryan convince the VFL to introduce an equalization fund to help financially struggling clubs (of which Hawthorn was one) and then ultimately the VFL ruled that adult membership would only allow admission to home games....so if the opposition was going to turn up to Glenferrie they would have to at least pay for the privilege of seeing their team beat us. Slowly things improved from there.

True. People forget that the Hawks were a minnow in terms of supporter base until the (in retrospect genius) move to Waverley, which led them to pick up a huge portion of the South-East, which is demographically the biggest part of Melbourne but has no local footy club.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I reckon that the AFL would be shattered that their 'Western Sydney' team is drawing less to games than the Kangaroos did @ SCG in the last 90s. 5.8% is terrible given their on field success and tens and tens of millions spent. And don't mention the TV ratings.

Well, 22% from 2013. The first game of 2012 was always going to be an anomaly and skew crowd averages.

I think saying GWS is drawing less than the Kangaroos did is also disingenuous.

The Kangaroos played three games a year, a third of which were against the Swans, in a much more AFL-friendly area. GWS is about winning over a new market, not just giving eastern Sydney another option.

In their first season at the SCG, the Kangaroos averaged 18,300, and in their second they averaged 11,946. Considering it was literally the Swans home ground, you take those games away and it was 13,477 and 8,266 (average 10,872 across the two years).

Subtracting the Swans game, Giants Stadium averaged 11,875 in 2019. About 1000 more than the Kangaroos across those two years.

 

[Canberra Pear]

And people reckon GWS shouldn't play home games at nearby Canberra? a mere 2 hours from Campbelltown (same amount of time it takes to drive from Lonnie to Hobart)

Out of curiosity, are you based in Western Sydney?

I would have thought most Sydney-based GWS fans would want a greater presence in Sydney. You're the only (potentially) Sydney-based Giants fans I've interacted with that seems happy with the status quo.

Why are you so keen for the Canberra deal to continue to the detriment of a greater presence in Western Sydney?