Harcourt presentation "bombshell"

[threesixpio]

Perhaps they think they do but they might be arguing that someone's parking fines mean their testimony on EFC's growth hormone use, enough to sink them, means the witness is unreliable.

Courts have higher burden of proof required to successfully prosecute a case against the players than a tribunal, so testing the evidence there is a smart play.

Unless your use of the word sink was another attempt at a bad joke I think you missed the purpose of my post - a cheap gag

 

[QuietB]

HGH is outright illegal. There is zero chance Dank didn't cover his steps with that and remember ASADA cannot use the evidence gathered by the ACC.

TB4 is the drug in play because Dank made a school boy error and failed to realise it status had changed to banned. If he knew, TB4 would be buried as well.

If it was Dermot Brereton pursuing this action I would believe the OP's conspiracy theory. Otherwise it belongs with the tooth fairy and santa clause.

 

[Baldur]

Tests found nothing.

Discuss

Take drugs that cannot be detected by tests. So tests find nothing. Really, what a shocking revelation.

But the Aussie today has an interesting story from Chip Le Petit.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...975763998?nk=6c68cbdecadc659388f5f473d3ad204e

"AFL medical director Peter Harcourt told an international anti-doping conference...“We did have some wind of this during the course of the year — it was 2012 — and so we did arrange through ASADA to have a number of specimens sent to the Cologne laboratory rather than the Sydney laboratory but nothing came out of it,’’"

Which means I owe the AFL an apology, they did not just try to sweep it under the carpet in 2012 but attempted to discover the truth. Well done AFL.

But it appears that the AFL medical director Peter Harcourt is a foamer.

"Harcourt said the combined cost of the ASADA-AFL investigation into Essendon was “$5 million and counting’’. He described as “crazy’’ club staff who oversaw the program of peptide injections and took aim at a “fan syndrome’’ at work at Essendon, which resulted in retired players in leadership positions intimidating club management.

He also took aim at the willingness of Essendon players to submit themselves to the supplement program designed and administered by Dank."

Pretty much what us foamers have been saying about the crazies at Essendon and the fanboi worship of Hird.

 

[WA ROO]

Take drugs that cannot be detected by tests. So tests find nothing. Really, what a shocking revelation.

But the Aussie today has an interesting story from Chip Le Petit.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...975763998?nk=6c68cbdecadc659388f5f473d3ad204e

"AFL medical director Peter Harcourt told an international anti-doping conference...“We did have some wind of this during the course of the year — it was 2012 — and so we did arrange through ASADA to have a number of specimens sent to the Cologne laboratory rather than the Sydney laboratory but nothing came out of it,’’"

While reading recently of a medium profile athlete testing positive to HGH,word was that a positive test can only happen 2-4 hours after HGH was used
If true it would be very difficult to time testing for HGH

 

[nineteen eighty]

Harcourt's speech only hurts the AFL and does not help Essendon one bit.

I read it the same way. Am I missing something here?

You know AOD is a modified fragment of growth hormone don't you? So by confirming AOD, they have confirmed a form of HGH use, they just don't seem to be able to prosecute it.

So the rumours that ASADA heard that Esendon were using HGH were 100% spot on. They just got the exact substance wrong, becuase they assumed no-one would be so bloody stupid and unethical they would inject substances not finished clinical trials and not approved for human use into an entire playing list of athletes.

Enter Essendon... ethics optional.

Fair to say that certain individuals in leadership positions at EFC (Hird, Corcoran et al) had NO ethics!

 

[imperial_oz]

Take drugs that cannot be detected by tests. So tests find nothing. Really, what a shocking revelation.

But the Aussie today has an interesting story from Chip Le Petit.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...975763998?nk=6c68cbdecadc659388f5f473d3ad204e

"AFL medical director Peter Harcourt told an international anti-doping conference...“We did have some wind of this during the course of the year — it was 2012 — and so we did arrange through ASADA to have a number of specimens sent to the Cologne laboratory rather than the Sydney laboratory but nothing came out of it,’’"

Which means I owe the AFL an apology, they did not just try to sweep it under the carpet in 2012 but attempted to discover the truth. Well done AFL.

But it appears that the AFL medical director Peter Harcourt is a foamer.

"Harcourt said the combined cost of the ASADA-AFL investigation into Essendon was “$5 million and counting’’. He described as “crazy’’ club staff who oversaw the program of peptide injections and took aim at a “fan syndrome’’ at work at Essendon, which resulted in retired players in leadership positions intimidating club management.

He also took aim at the willingness of Essendon players to submit themselves to the supplement program designed and administered by Dank."

Pretty much what us foamers have been saying about the crazies at Essendon and the fanboi worship of Hird.

The condemnation of both EFC and the players themselves is pretty strong for an AFL official yet it appears some of the EFC supporters only read 'no positive tests' as the entire article.

....and there is the entire problem with this in a nutshell!

 

[Baldur]

Harcourt's speech only hurts the AFL and does not help Essendon one bit.

I have to disagree on this, it comes as a surprise that the AFL had ASADA sent Essendon samples for further tests in 2012. That is the AFL attempted to do the right thing.

 

[Bobby Charlton]

Interesting. The OP does provide a non-contradictory explanation of the behaviour of the AFL and ASADA over the last 17 months.

Despite their best attempts, the combined efforts of ASADA & the AFL have produced absolutely no evidence to support the original suspicion!
...
ASADA is desperate to find something........anything, to justify its investigation, and not look like a lame duck pursuing something that doesn't exist.

AOD use is established, but ASADA can't prosecute it without looking incompetent for giving wrong advice.
...
The trouble is it (TB4) is only a pathetically inadequate amount for the purpose it is supposed to have served. No matter, it is the best ASADA can come up with. Let's ignore that it might have been for use by Dank's customers other than EFC, let's ignore that there was only one invoice for this small amount of whichever form of thymosin it was, and that that invoice was withdrawn, presumably because the thymosin never reached the club.

The players are safe (from infractions)*. AFL and ASADA are not - both at sometime will have to explain themselves at the eventual enquiry. ASADA can have no satisfactory explanation for not pursuing AOD. The AFL and ASADA have both proved themselves to be self-serving and incompetent.

*added qualification for clarity

 

[jenny61_99]

Interesting. The OP does provide a non-contradictory explanation of the behaviour of the AFL and ASADA over the last 17 months.

The players are safe. AFL and ASADA are not - both at sometime will have to explain themselves at the eventual enquiry. ASADA can have no satisfactory explanation for not pursuing AOD. The AFL and ASADA have both proved themselves to be self-serving and incompetent.

Beauty. Let's all just pull stumps, nothing to see here.

 

[hirdylloydy1]

This makes demetriou seem a bit of a liar, remember he knew nothing of a drug program or which clubs may be involved. No wonder he hastily left the afl

 

[IanW]

Interesting. The OP does provide a non-contradictory explanation of the behaviour of the AFL and ASADA over the last 17 months.

The players are safe. AFL and ASADA are not - both at sometime will have to explain themselves at the eventual enquiry. ASADA can have no satisfactory explanation for not pursuing AOD. The AFL and ASADA have both proved themselves to be self-serving and incompetent.

On the absolute contrary. The players are not safe.

They are going to need to be closely monitored for decades to see if the cocktail of drugs they were given leads to serious long-term effects.

 

[Baldur]

Interesting. The OP does provide a non-contradictory explanation of the behaviour of the AFL and ASADA over the last 17 months.

The players are safe. AFL and ASADA are not - both at sometime will have to explain themselves at the eventual enquiry. ASADA can have no satisfactory explanation for not pursuing AOD. The AFL and ASADA have both proved themselves to be self-serving and incompetent.

They knew Essendon was cheating and was trying to catch them. Those nasty people at AFL and ASADA, how dare they.

Players safe, cool, I guess Essendon and Hird will cease their court action then.

ASADA have no satisfactory explanation re AOD, congrats, a true statement. ASADA stuffed up. Be careful, it might become a habit.

AFL and ASADA both self serving and incompetent, as is everybody. But not nearly as self serving and incompetent as your paymaster and his client.

 

[Matilda05]

Interesting. The OP does provide a non-contradictory explanation of the behaviour of the AFL and ASADA over the last 17 months.

The players are safe. AFL and ASADA are not - both at sometime will have to explain themselves at the eventual enquiry. ASADA can have no satisfactory explanation for not pursuing AOD. The AFL and ASADA have both proved themselves to be self-serving and incompetent.

So Essendon can provide a list of what they injected the players with then, if not does this make THEM incompetent also..... oh and I believe that is a breach of a certain sporting code...

 

[jenny61_99]

This makes demetriou seem a bit of a liar, remember he knew nothing of a drug program or which clubs may be involved. No wonder he hastily left the afl

It may come as a bit of a shock for you, but everybody in here already knows that of vlad. You won't find many that think he either was honest or handled this well. The problem though is, you and your cohort don't get that vlad was ALL about protecting Essendon which in turn protected the afl.

 

[Baldur]

This makes demetriou seem a bit of a liar, remember he knew nothing of a drug program or which clubs may be involved. No wonder he hastily left the afl

On the contrary, it makes Demetriou seem a better and more honest man then many of us including me had assumed. It appears that the AFL did attempt to discover what Essendon was doing, not just cover it up. He never said he knew nothing of a drug program or which clubs may be involved. He said that the ACC had not told him which club was being investigated.

But you may be able to explain why the Hirdites have this obsession with his alleged tip off to Evans. It serves only to make Hird and Essendon look worse, so why do you lot kept pushing it? Smacks of cutting off your own nose to spite his face.

 

[Nikita Blue]

Interesting. The OP does provide a non-contradictory explanation of the behaviour of the AFL and ASADA over the last 17 months.

The players are safe. AFL and ASADA are not - both at sometime will have to explain themselves at the eventual enquiry. ASADA can have no satisfactory explanation for not pursuing AOD. The AFL and ASADA have both proved themselves to be self-serving and incompetent.

Poor choice of words there. Player safety has never been a priority.

 

[Blueyboy74]

The majority of Essendon fanboys keep conveniently overlooking that the burden of proof required is not "beyond reasonable doubt" like it is in a criminal case.

Rather at the Tribunal stage it "must be proved to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing panel, bearing in mind the seriousness of the allegation made. The standard is greater than the balance of probabilities, but does not require an offence to be proved beyond reasonable doubt."

One such reason for a lesser burden is that WADA obviously know that certain drugs only stay in your system for a limited period of time and for those that do, many masking agents have emerged to help prevent detection.

So the circumstantial evidence (which appears to be pretty compelling) may be more than enough to satisfy the courts and those that think otherwise are deluded. I guess we will find out in due course.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

On the absolute contrary. The players are not safe.

They are going to need to be closely monitored for decades to see if the cocktail of drugs they were given leads to serious long-term effects.

How old was Flo Jo when she died suddenly?

 

[IanW]

How old was Flo Jo when she died suddenly?

Dank client Jon Mannah was 23. Flo Jo was 39.

 

[Moral Decay]

Discuss.

To test for a drug you have to know the exact chemical composition of that drug, the investigation was aimed at the suspected use of 3 growth hormone related peptides (GRHP-2 GRHP-6 & CJC1295), and we start to understand what the AFL & ASADA expected to find, if Essendon used drugs not yet tested for they won't be found or, if its completely exotic there can be no valid testing.
“Most of the substances were just recently on to the WADA list or in the `and related substances’ sections of the list,” he said.
“The individuals who were going about this were trying to exploit the nuances of the WADA list and probably also had some understanding that some of these substances were so new, that the laboratories didn’t have the capability of dealing with them.”

I realise that we are all grasping at whatever suits our needs, but we should all try to be balanced in some form.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/af...lub-selfreported/story-fnelctok-1226975648048

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

If you really think about it,Its no surprise that the AFL knew what was going on?Not to the point where something illegal was happening but too somewhere very very close enough for them to do their own testing.You got to remember they have an invested interest in Essendon and the other 17 clubs.Last thing they want is for a club to be banned or whatever.In that sense i have no problem with the AFL "telling" the EFC to self report.

 

[morgoth]

Tests found nothing.

Discuss

They never positively tested Marion Jones and the other athletes who used Balco Labs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Laboratory_Co-operative, and their synthetic steroid. You can't test for a substance that is not known to be in use at the time, ie not on the banned list.

Its why WADA is allowed to retrospectively ban dugs to catch drug cheats like Jones. Its why you have show cause notices.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Dank client Jon Mannah was 23. Flo Jo was 39.

My thinking is, its a raffle. If you have something in your body that may announce itself at 65+, by taking hormone affecting stuff, it could turn up a lot earlier.

 

[markm106]

Tests found nothing.

Discuss

The article also talks about indididuals trying to exlpoit the nuances of the WADA list and having knowledge that some of the substances were so new, that laboratories couldn't deal with them.
Not sure if TB4 is that new it couldn't be tested for. Also is the investigation ongoing and possibly more substances could be added to SC notices.
The real issue this article points to IMO is the experimental environment the players were placed in and how the long term effects could be quiet significant.

 

[hirdylloydy1]

On the contrary, it makes Demetriou seem a better and more honest man then many of us including me had assumed. It appears that the AFL did attempt to discover what Essendon was doing, not just cover it up. He never said he knew nothing of a drug program or which clubs may be involved. He said that the ACC had not told him which club was being investigated.

But you may be able to explain why the Hirdites have this obsession with his alleged tip off to Evans. It serves only to make Hird and Essendon look worse, so why do you lot kept pushing it? Smacks of cutting off your own nose to spite his face.

Just a question.

Do you honestly believe, that essendon was the only club on this type of program?