Has Pagan improved this Team?

[jaykay48]

Amusing to read so many threads on whether Pagan is doing a good job - or not. Is he bringing the kids on? Is he holding them back? Is it his fault that we languish near the bottom of the ladder. Would getting rid of him improve our stocks? Would a new coach do any better. Is he too old? Has the game passed him by?

Amazing how many people there are on these boards who have never coached at AFL/VFL level - or at any level, but are experts on assessing coaching performances.

Unfortunately for DP - he is in a no win situation. Most people have accepted that a quick glance at the Ladder is enough to make a serious judgement on progress or otherwise. We are at or near the bottom, we were there last year - so obviously we have not improved (some take that logic to the next step which is to say we have actually gone backwards!

Is the Ladder position the only guage for determining improvement or lack of it? Could we use some other empirical measurement to identify progress - or lack of?

How about, for example, Points scored FOR vs Points scored AGAINST
Tackles
Contested marks
Hard ball gets
Ball bounces

You can probably find others - let us compare them over the past 5 years and see if there are any signs of improvement. I know that none of these stats, on their own, prove anything - but they may provide some trends.

The one I would like to see is the number of quarters won, lost, drawn over the past 5 years.

It seems to me that this year we have won a lot of quarters - without winning too many games. Would this be an appropriate measure of progress?

Anyway, is there a stats guru out there who could put some of these stats on some bar graphs? Let's see if there are any indicators pointing one way or another.

Personally, I think that DP has done a ...............

No, let's not prejudge. Let's not look for stats that prove our prejudice one way or the other. Let the stats speak for themselves.

As for this weekend - Gibbs or no Gibbs - let's smash the pies.

Go Blues

 

[RiCHii]

I think denis pagan has done an good job i mean , if it wasnt for dennis pagan .. Where would Fevola be right now ?

 

[marcmurphy3]

Pagan has improved the team even if it wasn't to the degree we once hoped he would. Yes we are still at the bottom of the ladder but we are playing mcuh better than last year. In the 2005 season Carlton didn't even looked like they belonged in the competition and there weren't so many positives (ie. emergence Fev, Murphy, Simpson, Walker). While back then we probably had the worst list in the league this no longer the case. I definately think we have one of the best young lists and probably have more to look foward to than most clubs. In 2004 we probably weren't as good a team as our ladder position showed and due to this we missed out on draft picks we probably needed. This season has given me hope. If we were to sack Pagan we should have done it a few years ago not now when the team is finally looking better. Getting a new coach would be a giant step backwards. I also like the style of football that he coaches. Our style of play is much more enertaining than those teams who just chip it around even if some of them do win more games. I would be very up set if Carlton tried hese sort of tactics to win. In concluding Pagan should definately stay longer at the club. I think it is highly likely our ladder position will improve next year.

 

[Fevalution]

I think denis pagan has done an good job i mean , if it wasnt for dennis pagan .. Where would Fevola be right now ?

Thats right, he would probably be helping WCE to a premiership, or a something.

I think he Denis should be applauded for his effort with Fev

 

[Johnny_3]

i think unless we finish considerable higher up the ladder 11ish... he should get the sack... but 1 more year should let the fruits of his labour come good

 

[btdg]

I think Pagan has done a good job of improving some players. However, his style is very inflexible; he tries to shape the team to his style of play, rather than the other way around. Some players adapt very well to his game - particularly strong key forwards, defenders who read the game and drop into space well, and outside midfielders who are quick, accurate kicks. Hence the improved play of Fevola, Whitnall, Lappin, Simpson. Players who don't fit that mould as such tend to get left in between their natural game and his style though, and get a bit lost. I'd say some of our guys are in that place now, with Stevens being the biggest candidate.

Overall - I reckon Pagan has improved the players, but not the team. Unfortunately, I can't see the team improving much under him. However, as soon as he goes, the benefits of his coaching will be more apparent as players free up their style of play a bit and get a bit more balance and confidence. Whoever coaches next will have an easy job; I could see us finishing bottom next year, sacking Pagan when his contract expires (if it is then?) and then jumping up the ladder a lot; and a fair bit of the thanks will be due to Pagan, not the new coach.

 

[Lance]

Thats right, he would probably be helping WCE to a premiership, or a something.

I think he Denis should be applauded for his effort with Fev

I don't know how much impact Pagan had with his effort in improving Fev. Fev, in his own words, was a drunk and didn't have the right attitude in his previous years. Since his marriage to Alex, there has been a turnaround for the better in his maturity and resonsibilities in life. Since his marriage, he has settled down and his sociallife has had a dramatic change with the birth of his child. He has been off the grog since last year (So he says), and his attitude to his football has improved markedly, resulting in his obvious win in this years Coleman Medal. He has always had the ability, and it has really come to the fore. Is this the work of Pagan, or Fev's own self discipline?

 

[Jimthegreat]

Pagan's been a massive and expensive flop! He lost the players well and truly!!! It's the worst record in the history of this proud club. You can talk about the list but it's not that different from the one in 2004 and that won the Wizard cup. OPur list has got better since then, but we've won less games. We won 10 games 2 years ago, 4 last year, and this year 3, even less than last year's embarrassment. While players have improved individually, no doubt, something not always due to the coach (for young players....experience, maturity, physical size, practice),we have gone way backwardsas a team, that being the coach's responsibility. Just becuase Fev's improved doesn't mean he hasn't sent this side into the gutter. Why can't we win more games than last year at least? 23% winning record, 17% without 2004, beaten by 10 goals 1 in 4 times since his tenure. Read the list it's not that bad. If Pagan's improved this team I'll stand naked on my roof, and I assure you that's not a pretty site!! I got nothing to worry about. He's been terrible!!!!

 

[athensblue]

DP has done an OK job. He hasn't had the cattle, he keeps saying and since he's still got some time on his contract he should stay. His support staff needs to change and we need more true blue people at the club to get us off the bottom. Re: the senior guys below I do not think DP has done alot to help thier development:

Fev: DP has helped however alot of the credit has to go to Fev. He is also at the age where footballers begin to play at their best. Also great to see Fev silence all the knockers who wanted him traded

Lance: our next captain and as he moves to 300 games will finish up a Carlton great. This is a guy who peaked very early and has not been too bad for several years. In any other team would have more respect from supporters. Again who wanted him to be used as trade bait last year?

Kouta: Unfortunately, he has been bagged by many on this board and I still believe he is better, on one leg, than half of our list. He will teach the kids heaps and even in a forward pocket still has alot to offer. Deserves thre respect from Carlton supporters that J Hird receives from Dons supporters as is in his class. Let's not forget what Kouta did in 2000 no other player has done ever - he was Jordanesque!

Lappin: has gone backwards this year but not sure if DP is to blame

French: is not an A grade ruckman and DP can not be blamed

Stevens: has heaps of class and while he may not give 100%, we had a great Carlton player, games record holder, who was at times the same. DP needs to do more with Stevens

As far as the rest of the young guys go, DP has alot of work to do and as we say give some of the players one more year, let's give DP another year to see where he is at, before he is flogged.

DP - get us off the bottom in these last two games and bring us a gun defender to help us get back to where we deserve to be.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

There really needs to be a change in the Carlton coaching position ...

While I agree Denis has had to it tough - his demands (his salary) are in turn showing too little return.

Id rather have Barry Mitchell in charge, someone with a good repor with the kids and is cheaper.

 

[Abaddon]

Denis Pagan has coached Carlton to 15th, 11th, 16th and probably 16th.
so to answer your question, no Denis Pagan has not improved this team/club.

 

[blues4flag]

Denis Pagan has coached Carlton to 15th, 11th, 16th and probably 16th.
so to answer your question, no Denis Pagan has not improved this team/club.

In terms of competitiveness, talent and a positive future we have definetly improved. We rarely have been thumped, usually go missing for a quarter or half that hurts us, but there are periods of games where we are well on top, which is something that has been missing over the past years where we were thumped. Huge improvement in some of our players like Walker, Simpson, Fev, Scotland, Bentick, Whitnall plus others out injured or yet to debut.

Future is much brighter now than what it was a couple years ago.

 

[TheBlueblood]

pagans not the man to get us into finals footy

 

[Abaddon]

In terms of competitiveness, talent and a positive future we have definetly improved. We rarely have been thumped, usually go missing for a quarter or half that hurts us, but there are periods of games where we are well on top, which is something that has been missing over the past years where we were thumped. Huge improvement in some of our players like Walker, Simpson, Fev, Scotland, Bentick, Whitnall plus others out injured or yet to debut.

Future is much brighter now than what it was a couple years ago.

Fevola is the only reason carlton hasn't been thumped from week to week. He's a champion.
As for Pagan. He should resign.

 

[as0l0]

Is the Ladder position the only guage for determining improvement or lack of it? Could we use some other empirical measurement to identify progress - or lack of?

How about, for example, Points scored FOR vs Points scored AGAINST
Tackles
Contested marks
Hard ball gets
Ball bounces

You can probably find others - let us compare them over the past 5 years and see if there are any signs of improvement. I know that none of these stats, on their own, prove anything - but they may provide some trends.

The one I would like to see is the number of quarters won, lost, drawn over the past 5 years.

It seems to me that this year we have won a lot of quarters - without winning too many games. Would this be an appropriate measure of progress?

I think everyone has missed the point. We know that we are (currently) 16th, we know that a lot of people don't like Denis, we all know what each other think, but the point of this thread was to provide some facts;

Might want to go back and read the original post and see what jaykay was actually asking for!

p.s. I'm too lazy to pull up those stats, but not too lazy to read them if someone posts them