Hawkins > Carey

[Turbocat]

Duck was 194 but he had a different build to Hawkins.

Lockett was truly amazing but rather one dimensional. It is an illustration of how ridiculous things have got that a 17 year old Plugger would probably struggle to get drafted now. He'd have to go to the VFL and spend two or three years dominating before being picked up.

Even then we saw how long it was before JPod finally got a crack.

One thing about the great Geelong side of recent years (kicked into gear I might add by North and Adam Simpson touching you up at your joint in Rd3 2007 ... last time we've been within a bull's roar of you) that I simultaneously admire and get hope for my own mob is that you didn't rely on high draft picks.

Like us you've never had a priority pick. In fact, I'm struggling to think of a pick you've had higher than about five or six. In our squad we've had Lachie Hansen at three and Wells at two (but the Wells pick was from the Carey trade and got pushed up two spots when Carlton were busted cheating so doesn't really count.)

Our Scott has clearly looked at your model of bringing a "population bulge" of players from about three or four drafts together as one group as much as possible. When we traded Hale we got hawthorn's Campbell Brown compo, which we activated straight away. Lots of people wanted us to save it for some mythical upcoming superdraft but instead we got Kieran Harper, who has slotted straight into the side in a role we needed and adds to that group of guys coming along together.

I'm really looking forward to playing you guys in Rd3 next season. Mainly because it is not at Kardinia. I love going down there - it is a real footy ground - but you guys touch us up which makes the journey home difficult.

Given we have Essendon and GWS in our first two, I'm reasonably confident we'll be meeting you guys with our tails up. We'll find out how much we've improved when we come up against the best side of the last 10 years if not longer.

Never LOWER than 7. Even when we were off the pace , three other sides had PP's that took us out to the 7th pick.
Disagree on Plugger being one dimensional , he was a far better player than that perhaps we all have our own biases but his power and conversion was perhaps a simpler game than others.

 

[MaddAdam]

I do know you had pick 8 in the 2001 draft. And took Jimmy Bartel with it. The pick after we took David Hale. Sigh.

 

[Turbocat]

dumb!! , I meant earlier than than #7. Selwood & Mackie were at 7 but most were much later than that.

 

[Tex_21]

I think you forget the champion that was Stephen Hooper. Number 1 draft pick in some year where we had a Number 1 pick.

 

[Turbocat]

I think you forget the champion that was Stephen Hooper. Number 1 draft pick in some year where we had a Number 1 pick.

No I didn't forget SHooper. Perhaps I should have specified it by I was talking this group. Anyway Hooper was 1990 a , long time between really early picks.
The funny thing looking back was we got that pick after playing in a GF. If it had worked it would have been a brilliant trade deal.

 

[MOONEY 21]

i admit i didnt see a lot of ablett during the 80's, but saw both countless times during the 90's as an afl member. certainly the one issue i always had on gazza was his consistency - great highlights tape as we all know, but consistent, no sorry.

yes and no. The bloke kicked 3 consecutive tons. Has anyone else done that? (plugger?).

We wont see that happening again, even from Lance (OMG! hes gonna be the best forward in the history of the game!) Franklin.

 

[YOTC]

yes and no. The bloke kicked 3 consecutive tons. Has anyone else done that? (plugger?).

We wont see that happening again, even from Lance (OMG! hes gonna be the best forward in the history of the game!) Franklin.

To be fair to Lance, the defence up until the mid 90s was pathetic. Lance would have easily scored 100s back then.

 

[MOONEY 21]

To be fair to Lance, the defence up until the mid 90s was pathetic. Lance would have easily scored 100s back then.

danny frawley, mick martyn and Sos beg to differ.

Just about every grab ablett went for, the bloke on him had a handful of his jumper pulling him down.....imagine the free kicks he would get today. Forwards of the modern era have it easy. These little fairy rules like chopping the arms were non existent back then and you had to earn the football the old, hard fashioned way. How could buddy compete with the sheer strength of someone like martyn? he doesnt have the core strength to do so, only blokes like ablett and plugger do.

 

[MOONEY 21]

To be fair to Lance, the defence up until the mid 90s was pathetic. Lance would have easily scored 100s back then.

not pathetic, it was REAL football.

 

[YOTC]

not pathetic, it was REAL football.

quote me twice, must have really set something off.

Looking back and watching Ablett left one on one inside 50 and when the ball went to ground the defender would often lose him in a contest. You don't get that today in professional football, sorry your REAL football is the stuff of amateurs.

Lance would run Martyn off his feet. On average there is just as many free kicks today as there was in the early 90s. You tend to forget the bad stuff as you get older. Don't worry, happens to everyone.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

i admit i didnt see a lot of ablett during the 80's, but saw both countless times during the 90's as an afl member. certainly the one issue i always had on gazza was his consistency - great highlights tape as we all know, but consistent, no sorry.

great thread btw. i recall a few comments from that round 24 game - one being "oh no what have we done - weve ignited the beast that is tom hawkins" - we shall see if that comes to be.

Before his permanent move to full forward in season 1993, Ablett played wing/half forward flank and averaged 16.5 disposals, 6 marks, 3.5 goals & 76 brownlow votes in those 9 years of football.

Carey averaged 16.5 disposals, 6.5 marks, 2.5 goals & 127 brownlow votes in his 13 years at Centre half forward.

He played half the 91 season before retiring but came back in 1992 and had arguably his finest season and was a brownlow favorite playing throughout the center and forward.
93, 94, 95 and 96 he was unbelievable and averaging 5.5 goals a game from full forward.

How was he inconsistent if those are the stats that tell a different story?

Carey & Ablett basically identical.
If Ablett ever was inconsistent it was definitely between the years 1986-1988.
It's a bit of a miss conception about his inconsistency imo. The highlights tape that most have come to know is just the usual stuff he was doing every single game but stats can be somewhat misleading but you can't deny taking 6 marks and having as many scoring involvements per game is inconsistent.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

To be fair to Lance, the defence up until the mid 90s was pathetic. Lance would have easily scored 100s back then.

wow that's a huge call.

Forwards today are given a much better go from the umpires than back then when defenders were given way too much leniency against their opponents.
They were allowed to chop the arms, nudge them in the back, hold the jumper and the great forwards like Dunstall & Lockett were still good enough to consistently boot high numbers of goals.

I reckon Franklin would struggle to even kick 70 throughout the 80's and early 90's to be honest as he's not a traditional contested marking player but likes to lead toward the ball and those years were made for contested marking forwards.
Although he is deceptively strong, he'd definitely have trouble trying to out push blokes like Jakovich, Silvagni, White, Martyn, Langford, Frawley, Daniher, Jameson or Dunkley just to name a few.

 

[YOTC]

wow that's a huge call.

Forwards today are given a much better go from the umpires than back then when defenders were given way too much leniency against their opponents.
They were allowed to chop the arms, nudge them in the back, hold the jumper and the great forwards like Dunstall & Lockett were still good enough to consistently boot high numbers of goals.

I reckon Franklin would struggle to even kick 70 throughout the 80's and early 90's to be honest as he's not a traditional contested marking player but likes to lead toward the ball and those years were made for contested marking forwards.
Although he is deceptively strong, he'd definitely have trouble trying to out push blokes like Jakovich, Silvagni, White, Martyn, Langford, Frawley, Daniher, Jameson or Dunkley just to name a few.

Franklin kicked 100 in a season in an era where nobody else has (poor fev )

Forwards today are perceived to have a fairer go from the umpires but really how many chop arm/hold the jumper free kicks do you see? Most in the back frees go against the forwards too. One again the average free kicks per game is the same now as it was from 1990-94. (ZOMG NO WAI GAME IS WAY OVER UMPIRED NOW, HOW COULD I FORGET WHAT THE UMPIRES WERE LIKE 20 YEARS AGO!)

He wouldn't need to out push in the same sense Reiwoldt doesn't need to outbody his opponents. Too athletic for those dinosaurs, defence is far more professional today and Lance is always double teamed

Not saying he's better, he's just more professional (In the same sense Richmond 2011 would destroy Hawthorn 1989)

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

Franklin kicked 100 in a season in an era where nobody else has (poor fev )

Forwards today are perceived to have a fairer go from the umpires but really how many chop arm/hold the jumper free kicks do you see? Most in the back frees go against the forwards too. One again the average free kicks per game is the same now as it was from 1990-94. (ZOMG NO WAI GAME IS WAY OVER UMPIRED NOW, HOW COULD I FORGET WHAT THE UMPIRES WERE LIKE 20 YEARS AGO!)

He wouldn't need to out push in the same sense Reiwoldt doesn't need to outbody his opponents. Too athletic for those dinosaurs, defence is far more professional today and Lance is always double teamed

Not saying he's better, he's just more professional (In the same sense Richmond 2011 would destroy Hawthorn 1989)

dinosaurs
Have you even watched highlights of the 80's early 90's?

What's the difference between Silvagni & Scarlett
What's the difference between Langford & Lonergan
What's the difference between Frawley & Maxwell
What's the difference between McIntosh & O'brien

That's absurd what you say, so Ablett never got double teamed in his day either then?

Fevola kicked, what? 96 goals?
Basically 100 as well in this so called 'impossible era' to kick 100 goals.

Fevola in is prime is a far better mark than Franklin but he doesn't get as much credit due to the Blues stinking it up throughout most of his career whilst the great Franklin has the like of Rioli, Crawford, Hodge, Bateman, Mitchell, Sewell etc shoving it down his throat in that season.

 

[Tex_21]

Forwards today are perceived to have a fairer go from the umpires but really how many chop arm/hold the jumper free kicks do you see? Most in the back frees go against the forwards too. One again the average free kicks per game is the same now as it was from 1990-94. (ZOMG NO WAI GAME IS WAY OVER UMPIRED NOW, HOW COULD I FORGET WHAT THE UMPIRES WERE LIKE 20 YEARS AGO!)

Some of that is a result of players modifying the way they play the game too. If things that weren't free kicks are now free kicks, and you continued to play the same way, you wouldn't last long. Comparing the rate of free kicks doesn't give you much of an insight at all. Players now rarely go for the arm chop, but it used to be a legitimate spoiling strategy, particularly for shorter blokes - old coaches used to forever tell us to punch the arms if you couldn't punch the ball.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

quote me twice, must have really set something off.

Looking back and watching Ablett left one on one inside 50 and when the ball went to ground the defender would often lose him in a contest. You don't get that today in professional football, sorry your REAL football is the stuff of amateurs.

Lance would run Martyn off his feet. On average there is just as many free kicks today as there was in the early 90s. You tend to forget the bad stuff as you get older. Don't worry, happens to everyone.

your not giving much credit to Gazza either as he was very nimble on his feet, almost similar to the aboriginal boys whose incredible evasive skills entertain us every week and he usually found ways to find space more often than not.

Unfortunately Pagan was little too smart to even contemplate putting a Martyn on a Franklin, even though Ablett snr was as close to a Franklin as you can get, Ablett was in his 30's by that stage and not in his prime like Franklin so I reckon Pagan would have given the job to someone else.
Modra was like Franklin and yet even he had trouble dominating.

How would you compare the athleticism of Koutoufides to Franklin YOTC?
Defenders were still able to match up on him ok even though Kouta was an absolute champion player.
It's a shame so many people don't rate the past era's gone by and only live in the current time

 

[yebbo]

Franklin playing back in the old boys era of the 80's would NOT have kicked 100's like Gary Ablett did.

Why?

Because he would have been drinking 2 slabs every weekend and would have turned into a podgy, nonathletic, mulleted slob like Dean Rioli....and Mick Martyn would have flattened him every time he went for the ball.

Comparing eras is just dumb and impossible.

 

[James1970]

Franklin kicked 100 in a season in an era where nobody else has (poor fev )

Forwards today are perceived to have a fairer go from the umpires but really how many chop arm/hold the jumper free kicks do you see? Most in the back frees go against the forwards too. One again the average free kicks per game is the same now as it was from 1990-94. (ZOMG NO WAI GAME IS WAY OVER UMPIRED NOW, HOW COULD I FORGET WHAT THE UMPIRES WERE LIKE 20 YEARS AGO!)

He wouldn't need to out push in the same sense Reiwoldt doesn't need to outbody his opponents. Too athletic for those dinosaurs, defence is far more professional today and Lance is always double teamed

Not saying he's better, he's just more professional (In the same sense Richmond 2011 would destroy Hawthorn 1989)

Half the current Tigers side would be too shit-scared to even make it onto the park to face the Hawks of '89.

 

[YOTC]

dinosaurs
Have you even watched highlights of the 80's early 90's?

What's the difference between Silvagni & Scarlett
What's the difference between Langford & Lonergan
What's the difference between Frawley & Maxwell
What's the difference between McIntosh & O'brien

That's absurd what you say, so Ablett never got double teamed in his day either then?

Fevola kicked, what? 96 goals?
Basically 100 as well in this so called 'impossible era' to kick 100 goals.

Fevola in is prime is a far better mark than Franklin but he doesn't get as much credit due to the Blues stinking it up throughout most of his career whilst the great Franklin has the like of Rioli, Crawford, Hodge, Bateman, Mitchell, Sewell etc shoving it down his throat in that season.

I've watched more than highlights, I've watched the games again and I laugh at the defence.

The difference? All the guys on the right play a more professional adaptable role in their teams instead of your point to point players on the left. They wouldn't be as good one on one, but they are fitter and smarter.

Of course Ablett got double teamed, but nothing compared to Franklin. The double team in the early 90s was always an afterthought, and quite often both players would lose their man once the ball went to ground. Merely an observation I've made watching the games and comparing them to highly rated modern defences.

Fev kicked 99 goals and I never said the word 'impossible'. They handed out centuries in the late 80s/early 90s like they handed out weak free kicks. It happened frequently, you just forgot about it.

I agree Fevola could have been anything if he had the right team/guidance. Probably played a deeper forward role than Franklin. Franklin had that great season where Hawthorn had the leading game plan and he excelled, but you can't take that away from him.

I'm not going to reply to all of you because the argument is essentially the same.

Re Franklin and Koutafidis. Yes very similar and Franklin would have also played a similar role to Kouta because of his athletic ability, meaning he wouldn't have had a chance to score 100 (like Ablett in the 80s). Kouta also played his best football past 1994, where defences became more coherent and smarter.

After all of this, what I basically meant is.... If you played Franklin as a deep forward in a team in the early 90s and built a game plan around him (like North and Carey) he would have scored 100 easily.

 

[YOTC]

Half the current Tigers side would be too shit-scared to even make it onto the park to face the Hawks of '89.

I guess you missed that other thread then?

Don't worry, there will be teams in 2030 that will finish 12th but they would be able to beat Geelong 2011. It's natural. That would take nothing away from Geelong 2011, still a champion team who beat everyone they could, but if you could somehow put both teams on the field, I know who I would back.

Remember Hawthorn 1989 lost to Brisbane Bears who were last when they faced them.

 

[you pick one]

I guess you missed that other thread then?

Don't worry, there will be teams in 2030 that will finish 12th but they would be able to beat Geelong 2011. It's natural. That would take nothing away from Geelong 2011, still a champion team who beat everyone they could, but if you could somehow put both teams on the field, I know who I would back.

Remember Hawthorn 1989 lost to Brisbane Bears who were last when they faced them.[/quote]

Isn't that how teams payed for their end of season trips back then
Not us of cause.

 

[bobbycatsfanme]

I've watched more than highlights, I've watched the games again and I laugh at the defence.

The difference? All the guys on the right play a more professional adaptable role in their teams instead of your point to point players on the left. They wouldn't be as good one on one, but they are fitter and smarter.

Of course Ablett got double teamed, but nothing compared to Franklin. The double team in the early 90s was always an afterthought, and quite often both players would lose their man once the ball went to ground. Merely an observation I've made watching the games and comparing them to highly rated modern defences.

Fev kicked 99 goals and I never said the word 'impossible'. They handed out centuries in the late 80s/early 90s like they handed out weak free kicks. It happened frequently, you just forgot about it.

I agree Fevola could have been anything if he had the right team/guidance. Probably played a deeper forward role than Franklin. Franklin had that great season where Hawthorn had the leading game plan and he excelled, but you can't take that away from him.

I'm not going to reply to all of you because the argument is essentially the same.

Re Franklin and Koutafidis. Yes very similar and Franklin would have also played a similar role to Kouta because of his athletic ability, meaning he wouldn't have had a chance to score 100 (like Ablett in the 80s). Kouta also played his best football past 1994, where defences became more coherent and smarter.

After all of this, what I basically meant is.... If you played Franklin as a deep forward in a team in the early 90s and built a game plan around him (like North and Carey) he would have scored 100 easily.

fair points mate and it's your opinion which I respect but I guess we disagree over the main argument.
I really believe Franklin is a wonderful player, arguably one of the best in the competition but he still not as good as Wayne Carey and that was the reason why North built the game style around him because he was one of the best contested marks in the game....get the ball to him and he beat his man 7 out of 10 times whereas Franklin won't and as I mentioned, he's not the best mark in the competition and that would severely hurt his chances to kick 100 goals on a consistent basis.

Franklin suits today's game style because there is very little body on body good old fashioned stuff.
It's all pack formations and players leaving their man to help out in defense, leaving the free man open to run the ball up the other end.

You watch season 2012 and count the amount of times Franklin gets beaten in contested marking situations whereas someone like Dunstall, Ablett, Carey would have marked and goaled.
He's awesome...but not as good as what you are giving him credit for