Heartbreak Hostel

[Old Spice]

Like perhaps no other team in the League, we have an inordinate number of players on 2nd chances at our club. Shaw and Didak are only the most obvious examples, but Mick has been exceedingly generous, to a fault in my view, with many of our players.

While Leon had a great 2008 and even better 2009, the length of time Mick persisted with Leon is extradordinary. Dane Swan obviously had his issues a few years ago and was part of a ladish clique, along with Johnson, Heath, Didak, Tarrant and Rhyce, until Swan and Johnson had a turnaround in 2006 and Tarrant was sent packing to Freo and Shaw shipped off to Sydney. Leigh Brown doesn't appear to have behavioural issues, but he has certainly lodged his arse into a cosy groove down at Lexus Hostel.

There are other 2nd chance types, but they have been our rookie elevations like Harry, Maxwell and Lockyer who have all been very handy. Medders will I'm sure return to good form once he has an operation, but one has to question why he was persisted with for so long given his form and injury issues. Cloke hasn't been much chop either, but has been persisted with despite not staying near the forward 50 to assist Jack.

A lot of these players owe a great deal of gratitude to Mick for his faith and persistence, but in my opinion that kind of latitude is not justified or warranted if it ever was. Players have got to be rewarded for form and if Leigh Brown gets a gig anywhere on the field next year barring serious injury, that will be a disgrace of the highest order, unless he actually earns a spot. The only holes I see him plugging are the development of our young defenders and forwards. For players who don't make defensive efforts, they should be Dal Santoed or Balled until they can come up with the goods. What we need is not a half-way house for mediocrities and lads, but a tight ship manned by players with a high work-ethic and heart, combined of course with skill. Both sides of the ledger are required to be a great team.

Daisy is most certainly someone with enormous heart and work ethic, as is Pendles, Beams and Sidebottom. These guys are great prospects and you can see the fight they have displayed, Sidebottom over the past 2 weeks has to me just been sensational. I don't want them coming on as footballers alongside inconsistent performers who have sloppy and selfish habits.

In 2010 I want our team to be a bloody leviathan, not a half-way house for mediocrity. I'd be willing to drop down a few spots on the ladder for a ruthless selection policy which leaves 'what ifs' and sentiment at the door and selects on form and fulfilling of key indicators. There may be some very short-term loss, but I believe it will pay off in very short order.

 

[shawthing09]

I agree with this 100%. We have seemingly tried very hard to transition without any pain. For the most part we have been pretty succesful and got valuable finals experince into the group.

That said I think it is time. We have enough depth and are at a stage where we can no longer accept anything other then what we think is the best quality of football. If that means dropping players to set the standard or find the right balance so be it.

 

[danielnajdek]

Agree with the Cloke and Medhurst bit. Both of them should of been dropped at round 19 or 20 to get some form in the VFL and they would of come back in the AFL with more confidence and the team would've been better for it.

 

[Axl the great]

Most sensible post all week, the lack of ruthlessness and too much faith in some and no faith in others is where we get let down.
Geelong is always the example to follow, after 06 they all sat down without the coach and had a brutally honest session, each player was asked to comment on every player at the club regarding their strengths and weaknesses and what needs to happen from now on, this was done face to face and became quite heated on occassions.
People talk about talent in that side, well they were not a great side back then but made the decision to say this shit stops now, and they turned it around from there.
It is something our players need to do, we are not in dire straits at all and we do have a good list however certain players are mollycoddled and protected from the reality that this is a brutal business and only the hungriest most dettermined prevail.

 

[pongo_3931]

The quickest remedy for this issue I see is Buckley coming in next year.

It all depends on how much influence he is given I suppose. If he gets enough pull with MM, the standards may rise and the repercussions for not meeting them may sting more. The man has high standards and that's fine by me.

I remember reading in one of the Black and White magazines (one from 07 I think) Malthouse saying that he picks players based on form and that those not performing were relegated to the twos. I think that year he did just that, but I've found that it hasn't been applied as strictly in 08 and 09. I have felt that senior members have been protected a little too much, a la Medhurst and Davis and even O'Bree. Poor form regardless of how many games you have under your belt, is still poor form and should be acted upon.

There is of course the age old argument that we don't see what goes on behind closed doors... but given that we never will... I'll stick with this outsiders observation and throw a nod of agreeance your way Spice.

 

[Zahki]

The quickest remedy for this issue I see is Buckley coming in next year.

Yeah I agree with this. Malthouse seems to have been a little soft this year, there's really no excuse to have Medhurst in for so long while he wasn't performing.

If you read Buckleys book he seems like quite a hard arse, theres one bit in particular after the 2002 GF loss that he wants to sit everyone down, watch the tape and review why they lost, but Malthouse nixed the idea saying it wouldn't do anything but lower morale. Having him around next year should really help out, I have absolutely no doubt that Bucks will bring in the ruthlessness you want, the man is driven by success and he accepts nothing less than it.

 

[Old Spice]

Yeah I agree with this. Malthouse seems to have been a little soft this year, there's really no excuse to have Medhurst in for so long while he wasn't performing.

If you read Buckleys book he seems like quite a hard arse, theres one bit in particular after the 2002 GF loss that he wants to sit everyone down, watch the tape and review why they lost, but Malthouse nixed the idea saying it wouldn't do anything but lower morale. Having him around next year should really help out, I have absolutely no doubt that Bucks will bring in the ruthlessness you want, the man is driven by success and he accepts nothing less than it.

I guess there's an argument to be made about not rubbing salt in, a la Bomber Thomson and the 2008 GF loss, but there seems to me a permissive culture at Collingwood in many regards. I mean Didak saying he used to value friends and family about 70% and footy 30% says a bit. Luckily now Alan's giving us 70%. Thank heaven's for small mercys.

Johnson has been blowing around despite the fact that he didn't want to be there either last year. In my view he was dropped for injury reasons primarily, not attitude and form. In any case, how is that allowed to fester. Get with the program or get on the bus.

I look forward to Buckley coming on with a big stick or a broom because there are just too many players dragging their heels and sulking.

 

[Quicky]

Great post Old Spice.

It really is time we start getting ruthless with our expectations of players and their performances. It is way past time that guys like Johnson, O'Bree, Lockyer, Leigh Brown among others should be fixtures in the team. No one should be a fixture in the team. There were periods during the year where those guys as well as guys like Cloke and Medhurst deserved to be dropped and never were. This in the long run can only breed mediocrity. I think we have gone past the point where we should protect our younger guys. I'm not saying sack all the older guys but make them earn their places in the 22. The KPI are a great idea. And yes if it means some short term pain - let it be.

 

[MarkT2]

Most sensible post all week, the lack of ruthlessness and too much faith in some and no faith in others is where we get let down.

This is correct but it is from the top down. If you accept the coach and not the results then nothing will change because nothing will change. The board won't act on the coach now because they just re signed him. Weak board = weak results.

 

[MarkT2]

It really is time we start getting ruthless with our expectations of players and their performances.

Look I agree but how people can sit there after another September bomb out and exempt the coach who directs the composition of the list and after 10 years hasn't won a flag is beyond me.

What upsets me most is the predicability of it all. From the president to the football department to the coach(es) to the positional deficiencies to the results to the supporters.

 

[Visions]

Somehow I don't think there will be any drastic changes in the next two years while MM is in charge but once Bucks get total control, I think that a few players will be genuinely surprised once he gets the chopping board out.

 

[kevind]

Dropping players who are not performing is the obvious right thing to do but i fear it does not address the real issue with why we were thrashed by the Cats.

The main problem IMO is that once again, thanks to an easier draw than every other club, we have reached the finals with a team full of journeymen footballers.

So the real problem is the holes in our list that over the last 10 years have not been filled.

The obvious one is a ruckman( and please no more soft, stick figures). We also need 2 more class midfielders and at least one very good KF. Picking up all those types will be bloody difficult, if not impossible within the next 5 years.

So by all means , drop non perfoming players, but I don't think dropping, for example, Travis Cloke would turn him into a KF. IMO he is simply not good enough. And that is the real problem.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

IMO he is simply not good enough. And that is the real problem.

You're right. Your opinion is the real problem.

For all the disappointment and missed chances for Travis this year, he's still a ridiculously good footballer. He just hasn't shown it this year.

We can speculate all we like about the reasons behind it, but I ask you this:-

Were/are you at the peak of your own ability at 22 years old?

No. Simple answer. At 22, you've got a lot to learn about your life, your soul, how the hell you deal with challenges and how to get past them. If you hit a rough patch, you learn how to get cope and how to get more out of yourself.

I'd say Travis has hit a deep bump, and he's still finding his way out of it. When he does, and he regains the spark, gets his body right, trains to kick better and puts his head back in the right space then he'll be back to being our best KPP.

In the meantime, stop projecting your frustrations onto undeserving targets and go out and do something useful, like winding up Geelong supporters...

 

[Alexander323bc]

I think clokes issues are above the shoulders not neccessarily natural ability. He needs a shrink and time in front of goals.
I think the biggest issue facing our club is conservatism. We always err on the side of caution in everything from selection to trades to drafting (s Johnson b hall t lockett) to game plan.
I have said this before why draft a player who will be a 250 game player that doesn't win premierships! They are useless. Give me a 25 game player that wins us a premiership of his own boot anyday. I would sell the farm for j brown or pavlich this year if in 2 yrs they win us a premiership.

 

[1eye]

The CFC will only ever be the heart break hostel for a short perod of time, full stop.

The Collingwood FC club has won the most H&A games ever and finals ever. We wll be there next year and the next after that.

P.s - none of, it's all about premierships shyte please.

We are on the right track, patience is required.

 

[Pie eyed]

Most sensible post all week, the lack of ruthlessness and too much faith in some and no faith in others is where we get let down.
Geelong is always the example to follow, after 06 they all sat down without the coach and had a brutally honest session, each player was asked to comment on every player at the club regarding their strengths and weaknesses and what needs to happen from now on, this was done face to face and became quite heated on occassions.
People talk about talent in that side, well they were not a great side back then but made the decision to say this shit stops now, and they turned it around from there.
It is something our players need to do, we are not in dire straits at all and we do have a good list however certain players are mollycoddled and protected from the reality that this is a brutal business and only the hungriest most dettermined prevail.

A very laudable process and if, as many have theorised, we are in a very similar developmental stage to the 2006 Cats then probably well worth the effort.
I agree in large part with Spicey's OP, dropping players will spark a bit more competition for spots and drive within all the listed players.

We so obviously lack a big forward, Jack did a great job in the H/A season but was left marooned in all three finals and not really his fault. He is not the physically dominant style of forward and it's easy to forget he's is a very young man 1.3 seasons into a career which was initially as a back. All credit to him for what he did give us.
Without said "Rocca-esque" forward Cloke is in no man's land trying to fill two roles, CHF and FF, neither of which he is proficient (yet). Fraser is not the answer and unless we can get Dawes and (barring both legs falling off and at least one shoulder actually just imploding) Rusling to firstly tke the park and secondly show some real promise, we are going to have to trade.
If Tippett were available I would move heaven and earth for him but I'm sure Adelaide see him in the same light. (I know he is contracted but if he specifically said he wanted to go then it could happen....see meteor strike, spontaneous creation of life, turning water into wine style happening etc.)

Specifically on Leigh Brown, no matter your personal views and while I admit he is not over endowed with silky skills you can never doubt that he gives and particularly versus Geelong, gave his very all which is a beaming example for many, many others who took that field on Saturday night.

Harry O
Daisy
Heater
Browny can all hold their heads up at least.
Had the other players followed their lead?
While we may not have won at least we would be certain that all was given, but it just did not appear to be the case which is the single most painful fact.

 

[1eye]

Most sensible post all week, the lack of ruthlessness and too much faith in some and no faith in others is where we get let down.
Geelong is always the example to follow, after 06 they all sat down without the coach and had a brutally honest session, each player was asked to comment on every player at the club regarding their strengths and weaknesses and what needs to happen from now on, this was done face to face and became quite heated on occassions.
People talk about talent in that side, well they were not a great side back then but made the decision to say this shit stops now, and they turned it around from there.
It is something our players need to do, we are not in dire straits at all and we do have a good list however certain players are mollycoddled and protected from the reality that this is a brutal business and only the hungriest most dettermined prevail.

Apparently we have the same developmental psychologists working at our club, working with Lloyd.

 

[Quicky]

Look I agree but how people can sit there after another September bomb out and exempt the coach who directs the composition of the list and after 10 years hasn't won a flag is beyond me.

What upsets me most is the predicability of it all. From the president to the football department to the coach(es) to the positional deficiencies to the results to the supporters.

I think it is implied that carrying too many underperformers for too long during the season was a failure of MM's.

My biggest concern was our form run over the last four weeks. 3 losses from 4 games against the teams that count is just not good enough. Malthouse and the team need shoulder the blame for that.

The biggest worry was that our seasoned players really didn't stand up when it counted - Didak, Davis, O'Bree, Johnson, Medhurst and Cloke in particular.

Thats where this debate comes into it. We can't keep accepting continual underperformance from any player in the team. Malthouse needs to address this issue and Old Spices KPI suggestion is a very good idea. We have done a good job developing the list we have since 2003 but we need to continue the generational change in the list. The other issue Malthouse really needs to address is our forward structure. Whether that is thorugh a change of tactics or through aggressive trading to get the right personnel it needs to be addressed.

Still no doubt there are some genuine positives to come out of the year. We got the side into a prelim on the back of some very promising young players who will only get better with time. You seem a bit more pessimistic about our list than me but I think we have a very strong list. We need to address our key forward area and hopefully target a Seaby or Charman to help our rucks.

We also need to make some tough calls on the futures of guys like Cloke, Didak and Davis. For instance will Cloke ever develop into the player we want him to?? and if not should we get something for him now?? Also with our young midfield group developing will they develop in time to allow Davis and Didak to play in a more suitable outside midfielder role?? Will they both be too old by the time our midfield develops to still be keys to a premiership tilt?? And if so should we try and get something valueable for them now?? They are really tough calls and i'm not sure what I think is the best way to go but they are things the club needs to consider.

If I don't see the generational change in the team from Malthouse next year I will be very disappointed. If don't start seeing more sensible team selections and and accountability for players performances I will be disappointed. Guys like O'Bree, Johnson and Lockyer will no doubt get game time next year for instance but if they continue to be entrenched mainstays in the team (in spite of performance) that would be disappointing.

I'm hoping we have another big year on the back of some clever drafting/trading, some tweaking to our tactics and with a more experienced and physically mature group of young players.

 

[pongo_3931]

Apparently we have the same developmental psychologists working at our club, working with Lloyd.

Lloyds brother is our shrink.

 

[Quicky]

Lloyds brother is our shrink.

He's Freos now apparently.

 

[Bloben]

Does anyone else think that we should look at getting that consultancy mob "elite teams" or whatever they are called into the Lexus Centre??

These guys encourage open communication between the players that did wonders for teams like Geelong. Apparently this is what gave GAJ the initial kick up the butt from players who thought he didn't work hard enough.

Malthouse is very strong in the way that he likes to get the best out of players and has said publicly a few years ago that he didn't approve of "Elite teams" methodologies. I think we need to shake things up a bit and get some serious soul searching happening.

 

[kevind]

You're right. Your opinion is the real problem.

For all the disappointment and missed chances for Travis this year, he's still a ridiculously good footballer. He just hasn't shown it this year.


In the meantime, stop projecting your frustrations onto undeserving targets and go out and do something useful, like winding up Geelong supporters...

If you are trying to make a point, you will be well advised to stick to the point of the topic and avoid personal attacks. You don't know anything about either me or my life, yet you make your great assumptions. So it's hard to take your opinion seriously.

In this current topic there are only opinions. Mine is no better than yours and vica versa. Perhaps you like to only have opinions that are exactly the same as yours. I don't. I like to read differing opinions. But when it comes to personal attacks, you are painting youself as a moron to me.

If you think Travis Cloke is/was/will be a great player fair enough.

IMO, I have witnessed 2 very poor seasons and believe I have seen enough. I've never been a big rap for players like Chris Tarrant who depend on taking uncontested marks by outrunning their opponents.

Cloke has played 100 games now. How many have actually been good ones? Without checking the stats, I would suggest that he has been very poor in about 80 of those games. If you look at any good footballer, you won't find that level of failure.

Hopefully your opinion will be more accurate than mine, but at this point I seriously doubt it.

 

[Grumpy Bum]

Does anyone else think that we should look at getting that consultancy mob "elite teams" or whatever they are called into the Lexus Centre??

These guys encourage open communication between the players that did wonders for teams like Geelong. Apparently this is what gave GAJ the initial kick up the butt from players who thought he didn't work hard enough.

Malthouse is very strong in the way that he likes to get the best out of players and has said publicly a few years ago that he didn't approve of "Elite teams" methodologies. I think we need to shake things up a bit and get some serious soul searching happening.

Malthouse obvioulsy doesnt believe in dedicated kicking coaches either, hence our abysmal kicking for goal record. He was not a big rap for rucks either, when the trend at the top 3 teams is to take 2 rucks into games and we persist with one novice or one injury prone ruck rover. Malthouse also likes to try and keep the ball out of better skilled teams hands with this hold and go wide plan, but they just clog it up back and run it out of the middle time and time again. It aint working Mick!

malthouse has some very funny ideas that fly in the face of the success of other team's ideas about the way the game is played. I am hazarding a guess the other teams have it right and Malthouse cant find a way to get it right.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

If you are trying to make a point, you will be well advised to stick to the point of the topic and avoid personal attacks. You don't know anything about either me or my life, yet you make your great assumptions. So it's hard to take your opinion seriously.

In this current topic there are only opinions. Mine is no better than yours and vica versa. Perhaps you like to only have opinions that are exactly the same as yours. I don't. I like to read differing opinions. But when it comes to personal attacks, you are painting youself as a moron to me.

I have no problem with differing opinions to mine. If you think I'm a moron it won't affect my ability to sleep at night.

Anyhow, I thought I was quite measured - I wasn't namecalling or putting you down. I just suggested that the angriness is better used channelling to a more deserving target. Like softc**k Saints supporters

If you think Travis Cloke is/was/will be a great player fair enough.

IMO, I have witnessed 2 very poor seasons and believe I have seen enough. I've never been a big rap for players like Chris Tarrant who depend on taking uncontested marks by outrunning their opponents.

Travis would have to be one of our better contested marks - also one of the better offensive tacklers. There's been a number of times he's been outnumbered and still managed to take the grab. His ability to mark isn't his problem, it's his ability to get to the right spot. And I do believe that's because our mids are playing so deep in defence that he has to run way too far up the ground.

Cloke has played 100 games now. How many have actually been good ones? Without checking the stats, I would suggest that he has been very poor in about 80 of those games. If you look at any good footballer, you won't find that level of failure.

Hopefully your opinion will be more accurate than mine, but at this point I seriously doubt it.

I guess 'good' is a pretty open-ended metric. I don't have the time to compile Trav's stats over 100 games - it would be an interesting exercise if someone has the patience? Would 'good' be a 3+ goal haul and 18-20 possessions?

I have nothing else to hang my hat on than hope at this stage. But hope I will, and despite a terrible end-of-year collapse, I'm getting over it.

 

[King Woodie]

Malthouse obvioulsy doesnt believe in dedicated kicking coaches either, hence our abysmal kicking for goal record. He was not a big rap for rucks either, when the trend at the top 3 teams is to take 2 rucks into games and we persist with one novice or one injury prone ruck rover. Malthouse also likes to try and keep the ball out of better skilled teams hands with this hold and go wide plan, but they just clog it up back and run it out of the middle time and time again. It aint working Mick!

malthouse has some very funny ideas that fly in the face of the success of other team's ideas about the way the game is played. I am hazarding a guess the other teams have it right and Malthouse cant find a way to get it right.

Malthouse has steered us to 4 consecutive finals series today (which hasn't been achieved at the club for a long long time) and we are obviously odds on to continue that streak into the foreseeable future.

He has taken us to two grand finals and within 30 seconds of another.

Do you think you could do better, Grumpy Bum? Who are you to say that Mick's game plan is not successful?

It is pointless entering into any discussion about our coaching now. It is set in stone what is going to happen whether we win, lose, or draw. Move on.