Toast Heritier Lumumba pens heartfelt letter to ex-teammates, wants club to own up to mistreatment

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Help My Club said:
Well his spelt out his issues over 10 pretty clear points. You can choose to believe him or not. You can choose to discredit him or not.

Given his supposed treatment behind closed doors, why would he accept a private handshake? Rightly or wrongly, he clearly doesn't trust the likes of McGuire and Buckley and feels that public comments from such people to understand/reconcile his position are staged/manufactured. He has put it back on the club - publicly acknowledge your wrongdoings/cultural insensitivities (if true) before we talk. If the club chooses not to, then that's its prerogative. If they choose not to, then in the current climate this issue will likely not go away.

If the club and those associated with it feel that Heritier's version is way off the mark, then refute it publicly with clear evidence supporting their version of events.
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Because he wants Attention and he know Bagging Collingwood for something that as you say happened in Private Years Ago but just wants to make it as big of story as Possible
 
Help My Club said:
Well his spelt out his issues over 10 pretty clear points. You can choose to believe him or not. You can choose to discredit him or not.

Given his supposed treatment behind closed doors, why would he accept a private handshake? Rightly or wrongly, he clearly doesn't trust the likes of McGuire and Buckley and feels that public comments from such people to understand/reconcile his position are staged/manufactured. He has put it back on the club - publicly acknowledge your wrongdoings/cultural insensitivities (if true) before we talk. If the club chooses not to, then that's its prerogative. If they choose not to, then in the current climate this issue will likely not go away.

If the club and those associated with it feel that Heritier's version is way off the mark, then refute it publicly with clear evidence supporting their version of events.
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A very reasonable offer was made by the coach to sit down together. H prefers to use Twitter. Clearly the club can’t engage in any further dialogue.
 

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Quicky said:
I find this comment offensive. To claim that someone who has experienced racism, and who speaks out about that racism is being PC is really wrong. Speaking out against racism is not being PC. It's just another convenient way to discredit and shut down the discussion.

Try to peel this back, forget your opinions about H and the rest of the noise around this, and tell me if you think calling a black man a chimp is acceptable? Is it racist?

I think it is and I think we need to fix it. As a club we're trying to play this on our terms but we were the ones that did wrong. We need to make amends.
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Andrew Krakouer did not consider it was employed in a racist way and considered it in retrospect as culturally ignorant. Heritier apparently did not object to it till 2013 when he raised it at a meeting and the name calling stopped. In retrospect yes it was wrong, but to claim it as racist when he did not seem unhappy at the time with the nickname is going too far. The nickname began during the time of Malthouse not Buckley, but interestingly no criticism is made of Malthouse by Lumumba. I probably had more in mind Lumumba's criticism of the word 'les' to describe a haircut and his objection to homophobic jibes with my PC comment, though that is certainly not clear.

I am also unaware of the extent of the use of the nickname, whether it was widespread or confined to a few players.

In this age, quite obviously it is not acceptable to call a black man chimp. In 2006 with H's acceptance of it, I don't see it as racist. People have worn all sorts of nicknames over the years. If no malice is intended and the recipient does not object, the nickname has been considered acceptable. I can personally recall much more hurtful nicknames being applied to people and many of them had nothing to do with ethnicity. Times have changed but that does not mean we should retrospectively condemn a practice that seemed innocent enough to all the participants at the time.

I find Lumumba's criticisms of people at the club too selective and convenient.
 
jmac70 said:
How do you know that the club haven’t tried to fix it?
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Sorry mate I edited my post shortly after I posted it because I didn't want to take away from my main point.

To answer your question, I think we have tried to fix it by reaching out to talk with H. I feel like we're trying to play this on our terms and need to acknowledge we did the wrong thing here not H. If that means we need to go a bit further then I think we should.
 
Quicky said:
Sorry mate I edited my post shortly after I posted it because I didn't want to take away from my main point.

To answer your question, I think we have tried to fix it by reaching out to talk with H. I feel like we're trying to play this on our terms and need to acknowledge we did the wrong thing here not H. If that means we need to go a bit further then I think we should.
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I don't know how far we have to go to actually make Him Happy If he ever will be
 
TheGreatGrundy said:
Andrew Krakouer did not consider it was employed in a racist way and considered it in retrospect as culturally ignorant. Heritier apparently did not object to it till 2013 when he raised it at a meeting and the name calling stopped. In retrospect yes it was wrong, but to claim it as racist when he did not seem unhappy at the time with the nickname is going too far. The nickname began during the time of Malthouse not Buckley, but interestingly no criticism is made of Malthouse by Lumumba. I probably had more in mind Lumumba's criticism of the word 'les' to describe a haircut and his objection to homophobic jibes with my PC comment, though that is certainly not clear.

I am also unaware of the extent of the use of the nickname, whether it was widespread or confined to a few players.

In this age, quite obviously it is not acceptable to call a black man chimp. In 2006 with H's acceptance of it, I don't see it as racist. People have worn all sorts of nicknames over the years. If no malice is intended and the recipient does not object, the nickname has been considered acceptable. I can personally recall much more hurtful nicknames being applied to people and many of them had nothing to do with ethnicity. Times have changed but that does not mean we should retrospectively condemn a practice that seemed innocent enough to all the participants at the time.
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Have you considered that H may have been too scared to speak out earlier. He was a young bloke trying to make the best of his career. I honestly can't think of in what context calling a black man a chimp is anything but racist. Your comment suggesting that someone who is speaking out against racism is PC was offensive.


I find Lumumba's criticisms of people at the club too selective and convenient.
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I understand why you perceive it that way. Try and peel it back to its bones and forget the noise around it. Is calling someone a chimp racist? Is racism wrong? You can try to explain that away all you want but it happened and its on us to make amends.
 
How does a club deal with such a complex individual? I agree with a lot of what The Great Grundy has to say on this matter. Harry O'Brien was embraced by the Collingwood Army. We loved his work ethic, his ability to express himself and the self discipline to rise from Rookie to premiership hero. I loved Harry. Did he suffer casual racism at the Club? I would tend to agree with H on this one. Being called a chimp is racist plain and simple. An apology from the Board would seem easy enough. H has said that this is not enough. This is where he loses me. Well, to be honest, he lost me at about the time of his embarrassing speech at the Copeland Trophy. This is when I began to think that he was sounding a bit unhinged; a person battling significant personal demons and not coping well with them. I wish H well and hope he manages to find peace and happiness.
 
Reg Grundy35 said:
that "no further comment" didn't last long!
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If I was Buck's I would not pander to him. I'd say I liked Harry and admired him as a footballer. There was no malice or cruelty ever directed at the man. If anyone chooses to believe I or any of the people at Collingwood are racists, so be it. I will not be commenting on this issue again. (Nathan Buckley).

I thought it was quite clear as to who I was saying should make that statement.
 
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TradeDraft said:
I don't know how far we have to go to actually make Him Happy If he ever will be
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To me it's about doing the right thing. If H was nicknamed chimp then that's racist and wrong. It deserves an apology. That may or may not make H happy, but it shouldn't stop us doing the right thing.
 

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Quicky said:
Sorry mate I edited my post shortly after I posted it because I didn't want to take away from my main point.

To answer your question, I think we have tried to fix it by reaching out to talk with H. I feel like we're trying to play this on our terms and need to acknowledge we did the wrong thing here not H. If that means we need to go a bit further then I think we should.
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If we’re talking about the nickname, I think it should be the players who apologise publicly. Malthouse has already denied using it hearing it. Maybe Swanny or Dids could make a comment?
 
TheGreatGrundy said:
I can't imagine anyone acting in a racist manner towards Lumumba. He was not indigenous but a Brazilian/African mix, and to many Australians this would have been an unusual combination, not associated with black people we generally see in the country. He was articulate, thoughtful and quirky and many of us liked him because he spoke his mind and seemed intelligent and meditative, even owning a thinking chair. I respected him as I am sure did many others, not only for his intelligence but the way in which he rose from the rookie list to become an exciting and important player.
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I said earlier that it's those who communicate who might be racist. Those who remain silent are rarely racist, unless they use their knees to strangle people. Yes I'm being sarcastic and ironic.

So while I understand your best intentions, your first paragraph presumes that racist people are racist for reasonable reasons. That racist people respond to articulate black people. Also, that Indigenous people cop racism because they are not articulate....
 
jmac70 said:
If we’re talking about the nickname, I think it should be the players who apologise publicly. Malthouse has already denied using it hearing it. Maybe Swanny or Dids could make a comment?
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I agree with this. I initially thought that the club should make an apology for the chimp name, but that would be a slur on those who didnt indulge. The players who used it should apologise. As much as I wouldnt like it, I think Heritier needs to name the people involved. The club is accountable for its actions after it became aware of the name-calling.
 
DinoSoar said:
One would think so, and that in itself will be quite illuminating in this situation. As will a non-response given how outspoken Lumumba has been on this matter over the course of the week.
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If Mick is denying knowledge of the nickname, you’d have to wonder when it was used.
 
jmac70 said:
I’m not denying H has experienced casual racism, and I’m not condoning people who called him chimp. We are not privy to conversations that took place between players and coaches. I suspect H has left plenty of stuff out, and has exaggerated other aspects.

Ultimately H was traded because his usefulness as a player to the club was expired. I do not believe he was traded because of his stance on Goodes. He got an excellent deal at Melbourne, far in excess of what he was worth as a player.

Our club has officially offered to sit down with him. He has declined. Nothing further is needed from the club.
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Fair enough, I can get where you‘re coming from, but just think they can apologise for whatever part they played.
 
Whether it happened or not, it provides a terrific opportunity for both parties to get together and establish a club charter to embed a culture of inclusivity, dignity and respect.

I feel that H’s response to Buckley and Eddie comes across as making current events about himself.

I would hope that his motivation is more about creating change by improving culture for current and future generations and not about personal gain.
 
Quicky said:
Have you considered that H may have been too scared to speak out earlier. He was a young bloke trying to make the best of his career. I honestly can't think of in what context calling a black man a chimp is anything but racist. Your comment suggesting that someone who is speaking out against racism is PC was offensive.




I understand why you perceive it that way. Try and peel it back to its bones and forget the noise around it. Is calling someone a chimp racist? Is racism wrong? You can try to explain that away all you want but it happened and its on us to make amends.
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Someone speaking out now against something he formally accepted and did not see as racism is not honest. I think that chimp in the right context among people who like each other and spend a lot of time together could have been considered a term of endearment. It does not have the same connotations as ape. As I said, no one would dare use the word today as the nickname for a black, but attitudes have changed. You say that Lumumba may have been too scared to speak out. (Does not strike me as the type who would have been afraid to speak his mind) But apparently he didn't speak out and was content with the nickname. If he objected and was still called the name, yes it would be racist. When he did speak out in 2013, the name calling stopped.

Please don't frame your questions to me in the context of today's world and expect me to agree that retrospectively a nickname was racist. I have witnessed genuine racism throughout my life and know what it is. It is vicious and nasty and designed to demean people, and it is also used indiscriminately by bigoted people. From what I know of Lumumba's situation, I don't believe 'Chimp' as it was employed and accepted fits this context.
 
soreplums said:
Whether it happened or not, it provides a terrific opportunity for both parties to get together and establish a club charter to embed a culture of inclusivity, dignity and respect.

I feel that H’s response to Buckley and Eddie comes across as making current events about himself.

I would hope that his motivation is more about creating change by improving culture for current and future generations and not about personal gain.
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Charter, ethics guides etc only work for those who are interested. In my experience, the worst offenders when it comes to racism rarely read a book, never read a charter, only read the sports pages in the paper and hang around with like minded people who couldnt give a stuff about changing their attitudes.
 
TradeDraft said:
and the Idiots in the Media are loving this as they can keep Pot Shooting Collingwood.

be other Clubs have Simmlar Issues
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I gather that he objected to the use of the word 'savages' in the headline but it was too late to change it. Got to choose your words very carefully if speaking of Lumumba.
 
soreplums said:
Whether it happened or not, it provides a terrific opportunity for both parties to get together and establish a club charter to embed a culture of inclusivity, dignity and respect.

I feel that H’s response to Buckley and Eddie comes across as making current events about himself.

I would hope that his motivation is more about creating change by improving culture for current and future generations and not about personal gain.
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I would follow Malthouse's advice and just move on if I was the club.
 
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