How do we take the next step to a premiership?

[Johnny Bananas]

Where it went wrong. Getting Lachie Neale at the expense of continuing to build through the draft.

Sure, if you believe we'd be closer to a premiership now with Connor Rozee and a 2019 first round pick in place of Neale. Bailey Smith pleaded mental health risk to stay in Victoria and Ben King wouldn't have changed anything besides us not making a play for Daniher.

 

[Roylion]

Our list is way too tight. We could make the space for an extra first rounder or a gun recruit but no way we're bringing in someone like Dumont. We just re-signed Matho for two years and we have good youth. That's our depth.

It doesn't have to be Dumont, but he is the right age and an unrestricted FA. Another senior ready midfielder (Ellis-Yolmen isn't the answer...yes I know he's contracted for 2022) would be useful. Robinson and Zorko will have to be replaced at some stage soon.

We're adequately covered elsewhere, apart from the ruck division.

 

[briztoon]

Sure, if you believe we'd be closer to a premiership now with Connor Rozee and a 2019 first round pick in place of Neale. Bailey Smith pleaded mental health risk to stay in Victoria and Ben King wouldn't have changed anything besides us not making a play for Daniher.

Nah, you’re dead wrong there.

Neither of us really have no idea where we’d be today.

We could have Ben King and Luke Jackson in our team today. Or King and Ash, or Serong. Who knows.

 

[pulpdriver]

It doesn't have to be Dumont, but he is the right age and an unrestricted FA. Another senior ready midfielder (Ellis-Yolmen isn't the answer...yes I know he's contracted for 2022) would be useful. We're adequately covered elsewhere, apart from the ruck division.

I don't know if they would. I'd pay out CEY for the list spot if I was in charge since he's zero chance of getting a game. I just don't see the need considering what we have. We would need to be absolute ravaged by injury in a manner never before seen for them to get a game. Neale, Lyons, Clugg, Berry, Zorko, Robertson, Matho, etc. How many of those guys would need to be out for a Dumont esque recruit to get a game?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Nah, you’re dead wrong there.

Neither of us really have no idea where we’d be today.

We could have Ben King and Luke Jackson in our team today. Or King and Ash, or Serong. Who knows.

No matter what combination you select, we wouldn't be any closer to a premiership than we are now. Ben King is a good young KPF but not a match winner yet, and won't be until Rich is gone and Zorko is on his last legs.

 

[dlanod]

Nah, you’re dead wrong there.

Neither of us really have no idea where we’d be today.

I agree with this yet you're also saying we went wrong by bringing in Neale instead of taking more lottery tickets in the draft. One has made us top 4 three years running, the other was what we'd been trying for 15 years with one finals appearance to show for it.

 

[dlanod]

No matter what combination you select, we wouldn't be any closer to a premiership than we are now. Ben King is a good young KPF but not a match winner yet, and won't be until Rich is gone and Zorko is on his last legs.

We could've drafted Caldwell and lost him after two years.

 

[pulpdriver]

We could've drafted Caldwell and lost him after two years.

We're not GWS, we would've kept him.

 

[Roylion]

I don't know if they would. I'd pay out CEY for the list spot if I was in charge since he's zero chance of getting a game. I just don't see the need considering what we have. We would need to be absolute ravaged by injury in a manner never before seen for them to get a game. Neale, Lyons, Clugg, Berry, Zorko, Robertson, Matho, etc. How many of those guys would need to be out for a Dumont esque recruit to get a game?

I rate Dumont a better player than Mathieson. Good defensive run. While he's an inside midfielder, primarily can, and has, also played on a wing. This would allow McCluggage to play more in the middle, where in my view he's better suited. 113 senior games experience.

 

[pulpdriver]

I rate Dumont a better player than Mathieson. Good defensive run. While he's an inside midfielder, primarily can, and has, also played on a wing. This would allow McCluggage to play more in the middle, where in my view he's better suited. 113 senior games experience.

He may be better than Matho but imo only marginally and not so much that we should use a valuable list spot on him or such a player.

 

[M Malice]

Mabior Chol

18

Mabior Chol

Age

28

Ht

200cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.7

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.3

3star

G

0.7

4star

D

9.2

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.2

4star

OOC & FA + Callum Coleman-Jones

21

Callum Coleman-jones

Age

26

Ht

200cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

5.0

5star

G

0.0

1star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

6.0

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

3.0

3star

T

5.0

5star

G

0.0

1star

OOC still unsigned for 2022.

Quinton Narkle

19

Quinton Narkle

Age

28

Ht

182cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.7

4star

K

6.9

3star

HB

6.8

4star

M

2.1

2star

T

3.0

5star

G

0.6

4star

D

11.4

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

6.0

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

4star

G

0.0

1star

D

12.0

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.8

4star

/Patrick Lipinski

1

Patrick Lipinski

Age

27

Ht

190cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

10.2

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.8

4star

CL

1.5

4star

D

18.3

4star

K

7.0

3star

HB

11.3

5star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.7

4star

CL

1.3

4star

D

15.2

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

8.6

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.4

4star

CL

1.2

4star

??

 

[pulpdriver]

Mabior Chol OOC & FA + Callum Coleman-Jones OOC still unsigned for 2022.

Delicate position because we need back up for Oscar and if we don't take a KP in this draft we're gonna be behind the 8 ball but I would still pass on both these guys.

 

[Roylion]

He may be better than Matho but imo only marginally and not so much that we should use a valuable list spot on him or such a player.

We'll have to agree to disagree and see what happens in the upcoming FA and trade period.

 

[pulpdriver]

We'll have to agree to disagree and see what happens in the upcoming FA and trade period.

I don't agree to that.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Nah, you’re dead wrong there.

Neither of us really have no idea where we’d be today.

We could have Ben King and Luke Jackson in our team today. Or King and Ash, or Serong. Who knows.

Melbourne could have Ben King there as well - they were the ones who gave pick 6 to the Gold Coast for Steven May. And he'll be 30 at the start of next season, whereas King would be with them for 10 more years. Was that a dumb move by them?

The Dees could've had another two young guns in there too instead of the two first rounders they traded for Jake Lever. Did they mortgage their future for that?

What I am certain about is that none of those players you've mentioned would have made us a better team over the past 3 years than Lachie did. The flow-on effects of that are huge too - would McCluggage and Rayner have stuck around if we hadn't pushed into finals thanks in part to Lachie's form? Would other trade/FA recruits have chosen Brisbane as a destination to come to? Would Will Ashcroft be less likely to nominate us as a F/S if we weren't a consistent finals team - again, thanks partially to Lachie?

You can't hypothetically change one scenario without taking into account the other possible consequences of that change.

The draft is a helpful tool of list building. It's the most helpful tool. You have to do it and you have to do it well. But recent premiers (in fact, all premiers over the course of history) show that utilising trade & FA is an absolutely essential part of the process too.

How many flags do Richmond not win without Dion Prestia and Bachar Houli? Would they have won in 19 & 20 without Tom Lynch?

How many flags do Hawthorn win without Brian Lake, Shaun Burgoyne, Josh Gibson, James Frawley, Ben McEvoy or Jack Gunston?

Ultimately, trading for Lachie Neale is one of the smartest decisions the club has made in the past 20 years. 16 other clubs have been - and would still be - envious that we pulled it off. And one other club was so bummed about it that they were likely to pay us the same for him three years down the line, even though he apparently didn't fit their list build.

I know you have a bit of an inbuilt bias against Lachie & JL, but they are incredibly good recruitment decisions and are a large part of the reason we can even have a thread about taking the next step to a premiership. Without them, we'd probably be having discussions around when our window might hopefully one day open.

 

[briztoon]

I agree with this yet you're also saying we went wrong by bringing in Neale instead of taking more lottery tickets in the draft. One has made us top 4 three years running, the other was what we'd been trying for 15 years with one finals appearance to show for it.

As I mentioned, I believe top 4 is our ceiling with both Neale and Lyons our prime midfield movers.

No matter what combination you select, we wouldn't be any closer to a premiership than we are now. Ben King is a good young KPF but not a match winner yet, and won't be until Rich is gone and Zorko is on his last legs.

That’s the thing about my original post you quoted. I said I don’t believe we’ll win a premiership with Neale and Lyons both in the team. Therefore I don’t believe we’re close to a premiership.

If we had drafted well in 2018 and 2019 (having not traded for Neale), we might be much better set up for a premiership tilt in the not to distant future.

I mentioned back when we drafted McCluggage then Rayner, that we would probably enter our window in 2023.

That hasn’t changed as far as I’m concerned, except we’re possibly in a worse off position for when Rich, Zorko and Lyons are no longer best 22.

 

[briztoon]

Mabior Chol OOC & FA + Callum Coleman-Jones OOC still unsigned for 2022.

Quinton Narkle/Patrick Lipinski??

I’d take CCJ.

Should play next year while Hipwood is out. Allows Daniher to play up the field, and no need for Daniher to ruck.

Would consider trading our future first round pick for CCJ, with a little future something coming back our way.

 

[pulpdriver]

I’d take CCJ.

Should play next year while Hipwood is out. Allows Daniher to play up the field, and no need for Daniher to ruck.

Would consider trading our future first round pick for CCJ, with a little future something coming back our way.

Neither is worth their current cost imo. Would rather keep Archie, draft a KP with one of our first picks this year and run the gauntlet.

 

[briztoon]

Melbourne could have Ben King there as well - they were the ones who gave pick 6 to the Gold Coast for Steven May. And he'll be 30 at the start of next season, whereas King would be with them for 10 more years. Was that a dumb move by them?

The Dees could've had another two young guns in there too instead of the two first rounders they traded for Jake Lever. Did they mortgage their future for that?

What I am certain about is that none of those players you've mentioned would have made us a better team over the past 3 years than Lachie did. The flow-on effects of that are huge too - would McCluggage and Rayner have stuck around if we hadn't pushed into finals thanks in part to Lachie's form? Would other trade/FA recruits have chosen Brisbane as a destination to come to? Would Will Ashcroft be less likely to nominate us as a F/S if we weren't a consistent finals team - again, thanks partially to Lachie?

You can't hypothetically change one scenario without taking into account the other possible consequences of that change.

The draft is a helpful tool of list building. It's the most helpful tool. You have to do it and you have to do it well. But recent premiers (in fact, all premiers over the course of history) show that utilising trade & FA is an absolutely essential part of the process too.

How many flags do Richmond not win without Dion Prestia and Bachar Houli? Would they have won in 19 & 20 without Tom Lynch?

How many flags do Hawthorn win without Brian Lake, Shaun Burgoyne, Josh Gibson, James Frawley, Ben McEvoy or Jack Gunston?

Ultimately, trading for Lachie Neale is one of the smartest decisions the club has made in the past 20 years. 16 other clubs have been - and would still be - envious that we pulled it off. And one other club was so bummed about it that they were likely to pay us the same for him three years down the line, even though he apparently didn't fit their list build.

I know you have a bit of an inbuilt bias against Lachie & JL, but they are incredibly good recruitment decisions and are a large part of the reason we can even have a thread about taking the next step to a premiership. Without them, we'd probably be having discussions around when our window might hopefully one day open.

I feel like people completely forgot what I said at the very beginning of my first post on page one here.

You’re whole post is pointless if you aren’t factoring that in to my position.

As for the very last sentence of your post. 2023. Read my reply to dlanod.

 

[M Malice]

I’d take CCJ.

Should play next year while Hipwood is out. Allows Daniher to play up the field, and no need for Daniher to ruck.

Would consider trading our future first round pick for CCJ, with a little future something coming back our way.

Agree although a future 1st feels like an overpay for CCJ to me.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

I feel like people completely forgot what I said at the very beginning of my first post on page one here.

You’re whole post is pointless if you aren’t factoring that in to my position.

As for the very last sentence of your post. 2023. Read my reply to dlanod.

I guess the other thing to consider is that there was no game-breaking midfielder available at the pick we traded Lachie for anyway. So even if we hadn't traded him in, we would still be short that game-breaking midfielder that you say we can't win a flag without.

I think the arcs of premiership teams are fascinating. Before a flag (or a run of flags), there does invariably seem to be some heartache combined with list analysers writing off the quality of the team. They aren't good enough, they have hit the ceiling of what they're capable of, there are clear deficiencies... until there aren't.

I'm not certain Lachie & JL in our midfield can take us to a premiership. I have some concerns we aren't quite strong enough too. What I do feel certain about though, is that bringing them in has given us the best possible chance to have a shot at it.

 

[briztoon]

Oh, and Neale didn’t make us a top 4 team by himself.

We brought in Lyons and McCarthy as well. Lyons had just as big an impact on our improvement as Neale did.

 

[briztoon]

Agree although a future 1st feels like an overpay for CCJ to me.

I did say we get a little future something something back.

 

[pulpdriver]

Oh, and Neale didn’t make us a top 4 team by himself.

We brought in Lyons and McCarthy as well. Lyons had just as big an impact on our improvement as Neale did.

Would we have hit the same heights with Lyons alone? It's a losing side in an argument. Neale is one of the best players in the comp and our rise has coincided with him joining us.

 

[Tom14]

I guess the other thing to consider is that there was no game-breaking midfielder available at the pick we traded Lachie for anyway. So even if we hadn't traded him in, we would still be short that game-breaking midfielder that you say we can't win a flag without.

I think the arcs of premiership teams are fascinating. Before a flag (or a run of flags), there does invariably seem to be some heartache combined with list analysers writing off the quality of the team. They aren't good enough, they have hit the ceiling of what they're capable of, there are clear deficiencies... until there aren't.

I'm not certain Lachie & JL in our midfield can take us to a premiership. I have some concerns we aren't quite strong enough too. What I do feel certain about though, is that bringing them in has given us the best possible chance to have a shot at it.

Also we've had a hell of a lot more fun the past 3 years actually watching our team win games. Being a home member and going to basically every game in 2019 remains the most fun I've had as a footy fan, as I was at primary school for our threepeat. Beyond losing draft picks if we had kept sucking, we wouldn't nearly be in as healthy a financial position especially given the pandemic, which we've come out ok on all things considered.