How important was Harvey's retirement?

[Persevering Saint]

Just was thinking.

Given we've had this remarkable change since his retirement, what do you think? Do you think his retirement spurred on some players to take more responsibility? Do you think it made a few of them realise that even if you have 2 brownlows, AAs, Club B&Fs, record games, the respect of all your peers, not having won a premiership still leaves you in tears at the end of your career? Do you think, perhaps, one of the greatest and most sacrificial and ultimately effective things that Harvey ever did was stop playing?

I do not say this in any way wanting to denigrate his remarkable career. In fact, just the opposite. I want to perhaps honor that even his retirement was not a tragedy, so much as "ultimate sacrifice" for these boys to go all the way. Seen that way, it is a truly beautiful - albeit tragically beautiful - and noble act.

 

[Kildonan]

An interesting viewpoint.

Though he may not have deliberately engineered the mindset in the players he left behind, his departure may have been the trigger that got them thinking:
"This guy is an out and out champion and yet he leaves without a premiership to his name. What chance do we have then? He couldn't do it on his own - he needed a team behind him with everyone as committed as he was. We better get our act together then. Everyone has to put in. Everyone has to give their all."

 

[Frankencow]

I think Harvey's retirement was important for another reason. It allowed us to develop into a quick, free flowing midfield. Guys like Montagna and, to a lesser extent, Jones and McQualter have been able to step in and make it a fast, young and energetic midfield and have also been great defensively. Luke Ball may also be a victim of this, though I hope he fights his way back. A good example of what I'm talking about is Jones' ascension to number 1 tagger ahead of Steven Baker. Baker is another who is getting older and lacking speed, and seems unable to make the jump from our old to new midfield so is barely getting a game in the backline. Robert Harvey is a champion, but we needed to change the way our midfield works as all the criticism about us being slow in recent years was valid. The way midfield is played now is different, so in a sense, the game had passed your old style midfielders like Harvey by.

 

[TassieSaint]

Personally I would say if he was playing this year things would be exactly the same, except we'd have a slightly higher %

maybe there was a mindset change due to him, maybe it was due to the whole Cousins, or maybe just maybe it was due to Lyon's coaching, the settling of the team and natural improvement from players.

 

[BlackHat]

Harvey was the problem not the solution....

 

[krusden]

In regards of harves I remember a thread a while ago that brought up the interesting point that of the Big teams of the 90s the retirement of a star has coincided with them being rubbish and that we are basically bucking the trend.

For instance:
Essendon - no hird. rubbish
Collingwood - No buckley. pushing rubbish.
Carlton - no kouta. rubbish.
North - No carey. rubbish.

It's intriguing to me that we are not rubbish this year.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Personally I would say if he was playing this year things would be exactly the same, except we'd have a slightly higher %

maybe there was a mindset change due to him, maybe it was due to the whole Cousins, or maybe just maybe it was due to Lyon's coaching, the settling of the team and natural improvement from players.

I agree. He would have been playing instead of Geary for much of the year.

I would attribute the sucess more to Leigh Tudor's influence which co-incided with Harvey leaving.
Harvey was not fast but his timing was such that he was still routinely intercepting the ball from opponents.

I would suggest that had he played on he would have been as effective as someone like Geary.

Go back to the end of 2007 seaason and I'm sure Harvey decided to play on, because he percieved that he was useful and needed by the team.
McQualter was about to be de-listed. Fiora wasn't that good. Thommo and Voss had been playing but retired.

End of 2008 season Harvey had seen ( and commented publicly ) on all the young talent coming up through through the ranks.
He knew that he was no longer needed and that the likes of Armitage, Steven , Eddy and Geary would readily replace him.
It was the clear and obvious time to retire.

 

[Squizz]

I agree with Franky - our pace around the midfield and tackling intensity has been first rate. Massively up on last year, and I didn't think that sort of improvement was possible.

Also agree with the sentiment that when club legends move on, those left with increased responsibility can sink or swim. Also gave a few guys like Gears, Horse and CJ the chance to be the elite runners at the club.

Although the thing with Harvs is that he could be brilliant in a good team or a bad team.

 

[blueblood25]

In regards of harves I remember a thread a while ago that brought up the interesting point that of the Big teams of the 90s the retirement of a star has coincided with them being rubbish and that we are basically bucking the trend.

For instance:
Essendon - no hird. rubbish
Collingwood - No buckley. pushing rubbish.
Carlton - no kouta. rubbish.
North - No carey. rubbish.

It's intriguing to me that we are not rubbish this year.

Kouta was through his best years when he finished up with the club and we were going through a fairly tough time ala Melbourne.. Very interesting point about Harvey and i think it was important for St Kilda not to drop in form and they've clearly done a brilliant job. St Kilda wasn't going through a massive transition like Carlton were.

 

[Plugger35]

Yeah not sure whether Harvey's retirement has had all that much of an effect on our current season either way. No doubt he was a big loss as an experienced player & champion of the club, although he wasn't the vital key player on field as he was in his peak years by the time he retired.

On the positive side his retirement has probably given a few younger fringe players like McQualter, Geary & Jones more opportunities. It's also possible that his retirement has spurred some of the older players on this year, with the realisation that if they don't pull their fingers out now that they too could finish their careers without a premiership. Although I'm not sure they would be any more motivated than previous years when they were trying to win one for Harves.

I really think the improvement is more down to good coaching and strong leadership from Lyon, the addition of quality assistants like Tudor, a more committed & disciplined playing group and better injury management.

I also think the whole not getting Cousins thing worked in our favour, with Lyon telling the current playing group that it was up to them to achieve success themselves rather than rely on a superstar player to come along and save them.

 

[Spange]

interesting topic guys... we lost a couple guys a little while ago and we failed to lift as you guys have. I wouldn't say his leaving had much to do with the playing rather that "the stars have aligned" and your injury problems have gone away. How long has it been since you had a fit lenny, goddard, nick, kosi, ball on the same park. Some of those guys are the engines that drive your team. They are all coming on and have improved out of sight, which is a feat in itself.

Gilbert and Fisher have their backline groove on. Milne and Schneider are sharking with the best of them. Montagna is a Demon, Farren is proving more than adequate. Everything is working out. If Harves was still in I reckon you would still be firing but he have trouble making best 22 right now

Good luck in the finals. It's your year!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

interesting topic guys... we lost a couple guys a little while ago and we failed to lift as you guys have. I wouldn't say his leaving had much to do with the playing rather that "the stars have aligned" and your injury problems have gone away. How long has it been since you had a fit lenny, goddard, nick, kosi, ball on the same park. Some of those guys are the engines that drive your team. They are all coming on and have improved out of sight, which is a feat in itself.

Gilbert and Fisher have their backline groove on. Milne and Schneider are sharking with the best of them. Montagna is a Demon, Farren is proving more than adequate. Everything is working out. If Harves was still in I reckon you would still be firing but he have trouble making best 22 right now

Good luck in the finals. It's your year!

Thanks for your post Spange. I agree with you, and I think Harvey could see what was happening. Who wants to run around in the magoo's on the weekend at the ripe old age of 38.

 

[dg102]

I think harvey's retirement had absolutly nothing to do with our improvent this year. There are alot of reasons why we are so good now and its alot to do with defensive pressure, frontal pressure, contested possesions. Ross was drilling his game style into our team since day 1. Took 2 years, a good run with injuries and some smart trade selections for everything to click.

I say good luck to harvey. I hope he comes back one day.

 

[ChrisFooty]

I think harvey's retirement had absolutly nothing to do with our improvent this year. There are alot of reasons why we are so good now and its alot to do with defensive pressure, frontal pressure, contested possesions. Ross was drilling his game style into our team since day 1. Took 2 years, a good run with injuries and some smart trade selections for everything to click.

I say good luck to harvey. I hope he comes back one day.

My thoughts exactly! Although Harvey retired at the correct time for both player and club concerned. It would of been risky for Harvey to push it one more year. Harvey is a champion and looks after his body very professionally, age and risk of injuries can hamper even the greatest of players.

 

[Armitage2Riewoldt]

Even thought Harves was one of our best last year. It would have been horrible to see him struggle to maintain his spot in the best 22. Which for all we know, he may have been doing. Think of all the pressure the club would be on play him even if they thought he wasn't up to it...it wouldn't have worked out well.

It's given Jones, Gear, McQ and Eddy a chance to step up. Unfortunately for me, it's not names like Armitage and Steven.

Also I doubt we would have looked for Farren if Harvey played on. And I reckon they next 8 years we get from Ray will be a little better than the 1 more year Harvey would have given us.

Nothin would have pleased me more than seeing Harvey win a flag...except one thing. St Kilda winning a flag! It's sad that he won't get a premiership medallion, but dammit, clubs far bigger than any player. And thats no disrespect to Harves, I had tears in my eyes when Harves was getting chaired off after the PF last year...

Hopefully it's tears of joy this year!

 

[Half Back Pocket]

I think harvey's retirement had absolutly nothing to do with our improvent this year. There are alot of reasons why we are so good now and its alot to do with defensive pressure, frontal pressure, contested possesions. Ross was drilling his game style into our team since day 1. Took 2 years, a good run with injuries and some smart trade selections for everything to click.

I say good luck to harvey. I hope he comes back one day.

i agree DG. Our improvement has come from several, more-traditional sources as mentioned above:
1) coaching - Ross has had time to drum into his players how he wants the team to play. Addition of Tudor as mentioned.
2) game plan - in addition to the point above, the players seem to have embraced the rolling zone/frontal pressure style.
3) conditioning/football dept. - obviously the financial resources of the football department have increased, from recruiting to injury management, things have improved.
4) player maturity - the major factor in our improvement is surely our player maturity. Our stars are all in their mid 20's with 75-125plus games under their belts...with a smattering of veterans for experience/cool heads and a smattering of rookies for entusiasm etc.

 

[ChrisFooty]

I say good luck to harvey. I hope he comes back one day.

The fact we have a coach that is actually very competent and has the potential to coach the St.kilda football club for another 10 years could hamper ever seeing Harvey take on the saints top job. I love this problem. For once St.kilda might actually have a long term coach. Stability is a very good for any club, even more so for the likes of St.kilda, who have desperately been missing this in coaches (Richmond would love this too)

What are Harvey's coaching ambitions and time frame? I do not think anyone knows, maybe even not the man himself. The last thing I would want is a Buckley/Malthouse situation at St.kilda. Malthouse is a fantastic coach and doing an excellent job in 2009. I can't believe Collingwood want Buckley so badly for the senior job and this transition phase.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm not sure that Harvey would make a good "head coach". Though I am sure that he is very suited to his role as development coach. I suspect that he may be doing a job that
a. Is related to football.
b. Is related to physical training
= c. An enjoyable job for him.

 

[HoldenMCaulfield]

When I saw the thread title, my immediate reaction was "how dare you ?". But I know that PS would not dare to abuse our greatest champion ever, so all good (albeit I still would have preferred a title more like "would our game plan be the same with Harvey ?").

I guess we will never know whether Harvey's retirement could actually have been a "positive" contribution to our new strength this year or whether we could have been even better with him. Harvey's game was never about Harvey, he was outstanding regardless of the quality of his teammates, regardless of the game plan, regardless of the coach - a true team champion (who ironically won all available individual tiitles, but never the one team award he wanted most).

 

[sammm]

What are Harvey's coaching ambitions and time frame? I do not think anyone knows, maybe even not the man himself. The last thing I would want is a Buckley/Malthouse situation at St.kilda. Malthouse is a fantastic coach and doing an excellent job in 2009. I can't believe Collingwood want Buckley so badly for the senior job and this transition phase.

from my memory harvey doesn't want to be a head coach but be A developmental coach for young players! well thats what he said when he went to carlton.

 

[ChrisFooty]

from my memory harvey doesn't want to be a head coach but be A developmental coach for young players! well thats what he said when he went to carlton.

Oh serious? I thought one day he would of loved to take out a top coaching job. Harvey doing that kind of role at the Saints, or any kind of assistant role would be excellent. I have no doubt however that Harvey has gone to Carlton to expand his horizons and gather coaching experience that one day could be used for a senior coaching role.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Oh serious? I thought one day he would of loved to take out a top coaching job. Harvey doing that kind of role at the Saints, or any kind of assistant role would be excellent. I have no doubt however that Harvey has gone to Carlton to expand his horizons and gather coaching experience that one day could be used for a senior coaching role.

...too bad they've such a dim-witted Head Coach. He would probably be better off taking notes off Parko when he's at the club!

 

[Squizz]

So he's not after the same head job that Mark Harvey was seeking?

 

[dg102]

yeah i think harvey would love to come back as a development assistant role after getting some experience else where