Opinion How will our back 6 evolve?

[Lockyer24]

I think we have quite a mobile back 6 now, and quite an attacking one too

Toovs Brown Marley
Scharen Reid Seeds/Ox

Harry defensive wingman

Maxwell, Goldsack and Keeffe in support

 

[well left]

I posted this backline in the best 22 thread but this is how I see things moving forward:

FB: ---Toovey---Keeffe---Oxley---
HB: ---Schara---Brown---Williams---

I like this back 6 Quicky and can see this being where we end up. Keeffe's ability to hold down that spot late 2013 enabled Reid to go forward and I agree we will continue with this. I think this has prompted us to look at how we replace Reid's intercept marking and kicking out of D50 and I think we have seen this with the drafting of Scharenberg and the elevation of Oxley.

Given a good preseason I can see Oxley there Round 1 with Maxwell and a Goldsack or Seedsman or Sinclair. Tooves will take one of their spots when he returns from injury and I expect Scharenberg to force his way in maybe mid year or a bit later.

 

[doodles98]

Sharenberg - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Langdon (F/D) - depth
Oxley - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Ramsay - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Armstrong - Needs to make this his year and push into the seniors otherwise will be his last year.
Toovey - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Young - fighting for a spot on flank
Clarke - depth - last year on list
Yagmoor (R) - Depth - If retained he needs to make this his year and push into the seniors otherwise will be his last year.
Brown - Lock for FB
Keeffe - Lock for CHB
Frost - depth - will have to be used to cover for injuries if Reid stays forward
Reid (F/D) -forward
Maxwell - depth - last year on list
Williams - Lock for back pocket
Sinclair - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Goldsack - depth.. may even play forward at times... possible trade at year end
Seedsman - fighting for a spot on flank


This is how I see it.. there are only 3 positions I would consider "taken" by an encumbent.. Williams, Brown and Keefe. Tooves will be coming back from an acl and a year out of footy and will have to compete with the pack for a spot. Competition for spots on back flanks/pockets is going to be hot (13 players for 3 spots!!). With all the young talent coming through we need to try them out and settle on a first choice back 6 for the future... I would hate to see Maxwell or Goldsack get too many games this year unless they have hugely better years than last and earn it on absolute merit...then I'd be wrapped!

 

[TradeDraft]

Sharenberg - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Langdon (F/D) - depth
Oxley - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Ramsay - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Armstrong - Needs to make this his year and push into the seniors otherwise will be his last year.
Toovey - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Young - fighting for a spot on flank
Clarke - depth - last year on list
Yagmoor (R) - Depth - If retained he needs to make this his year and push into the seniors otherwise will be his last year.
Brown - Lock for FB
Keeffe - Lock for CHB
Frost - depth - will have to be used to cover for injuries if Reid stays forward
Reid (F/D) -forward
Maxwell - depth - last year on list
Williams - Lock for back pocket
Sinclair - fighting for a spot on flank/pocket
Goldsack - depth.. may even play forward at times... possible trade at year end
Seedsman - fighting for a spot on flank


This is how I see it.. there are only 3 positions I would consider "taken" by an encumbent.. Williams, Brown and Keefe. Tooves will be coming back from an acl and a year out of footy and will have to compete with the pack for a spot. Competition for spots on back flanks/pockets is going to be hot (13 players for 3 spots!!). With all the young talent coming through we need to try them out and settle on a first choice back 6 for the future... I would hate to see Maxwell or Goldsack get too many games this year unless they have hugely better years than last and earn it on absolute merit...then I'd be wrapped!

Very Intresting Read.

Harry and Seedsman could go on to a Wing I reckon. Same as Young.

With Shazza being a Top 10 Pick you think be will get a pretty early chance once his Feet come good

 

[noideaatall]

The back six I would like us to evolve to:
Tooves Brown Williams
Scharenberg Keeffe Seedsmen
Some thoughts on the evolution of players -
Keeffe: get more out of his kicking ability
Brown: add a bit more attack to his shutdown ability. Big year for Brown, needs to show he can evolve
Reid: consolidate his ability as a swing man. Whether starting or thrown forward be consistently useful whilst retaining AA CHB capacity.
Frost: establish himself closer to contention with the three above.
Toovey: regain the form of his past. That will be enough to ensure I spot, doubt we can hope he can add strings to his bow in the year after such an injury.
Marley: consolidate his form of last year. Lots of hope he can evolve beyond that.
Sinclair: establish himself as depth behind Tooves and Marley.
Scharenberg: break into the 22.
Maxwell: you can only dream that Maxy could relinguish the captaincy and find something new in this game. I really can't see this happening. I see his role as evolving into the future world's best backline coach for the pies, playing games early then seeing most of the season out in the 2s.
Clarke: He hasn't really improved since he left us first. Missed those vital years that might have given him experience from which to evolve from. Not sure where his development can come from or how he can get a best 22 spot. He would need to improve significantly in his ability to impact on a match, or to completely shut down his opponent to achieve that.
Seedsmen: plenty of indication he has the talent to evolve into a significant player, of the bf or wing. He will need to at least improve to ensure a spot, whether on flank or wing, next year but will need more than that to cement a place into the future.
Young: needs to get on the park. Needs to play well to ensure a spot. Needs to find his best form to definitely be a part of the pies 22 beyond 2014.
Oxley: establish himself in contention for a postion.
Yagmoor: huge year. Not really depth at the moment. He has to improve to a level of genuine depth and show something that indicates he can be more than that.
Goldsack: love his intensity around the footy but he has evolved into a poor man's Reid for mine and will struggle to get a spot. Like Maxwell if we get the average of his form over the last year and he is still in the best 22 we have problems. He will need to evolve as a player, find something more to ensure a spot. I would like to see this happen and goldsack be one of the back flankers but can't see this happening.

 

[doodles98]

Good summary.. I think Tooves may struggle this year though and others may go past him. Frost developing is hugely important as he is our only backup key defender.

 

[Quicky]

I consider Toovey a lock in a back pocket. Brown, Keeffe, Toovey and Williams is the core of our defense. There is enormous competition for those offensive half back flank positions. Isn't that a fantastic position to be in!

 

[Knightmare]

I'd be going with assuming perfect health
B: Alan Toovey Lachlan Keeffe Marley Williams
HB: Matthew Scharenberg Nathan Brown Paul Seedsman
Loose man: Ben Reid

Eventually I'd like Nathan Freeman to take Williams' position down back and have Williams become a power midfielder but that's another year away from happening.

It's a defensively sound back half but also more capable in a rebounding sense with Reid and Scharenberg your kickers and Seedsman your run and carry threat with perhaps Freeman in the future that second run and carry threat down back if we want to go out of the box and develop him down back.

 

[doodles98]

I consider Toovey a lock in a back pocket. Brown, Keeffe, Toovey and Williams is the core of our defense. There is enormous competition for those offensive half back flank positions. Isn't that a fantastic position to be in!

It is a fantastic position we are in.. we also have O'brien to throw back there if needs be. But again, I don't see Tooves as a lock for a spot. As I said.. with the quality and competition for spots I think Tooves will have his work cut out to re-cement his spot straight after an acl. It all depends on how he pulls up and how much the likes of Broomhead/Seedsman/Sinclair improve on last year.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

Eventually I'd like Nathan Freeman to take Williams' position down back and have Williams become a power midfielder but that's another year away from happening.

This is probably the weirdest thing I've heard regarding these 2 players.

What's your reasoning for Freeman to play as a defender and Williams as a midfielder?

 

[Rocky Racoon]

Anyone without Keeffe in their back six is off the mark ... His potential is enormous and should become one of the best defenders in the league over the next couple of years.

 

[Knightmare]

This is probably the weirdest thing I've heard regarding these 2 players.

What's your reasoning for Freeman to play as a defender and Williams as a midfielder?

It is to most with Freeman drafted as a midfielder and Williams excellent down back.

Williams I like through the midfield with his power. You see it down back. Any 1v1 he's involved in he has the power to win. When it hits the ground you can count on him beating his man to the ball and knocking him off the contest.
That ability translates through the midfield. He's got such incredible natural strength. He'll win everything inside and outbody his opponents at contests, he keeps his feet so well, with ball in hand and when tackled he's not going to ground and he can physically with his superiority just drag the ball forward.
He'll need to improve his footskills and endurance but I largely see him as a Swan without as much ability outside the contest. If he continues to improve his endurance and footskills as Swan did he may make a similar transition and become a valuable onballer and really add that hard edge to the more finesse Pendlebury and Beams.

Freeman on the other hand while he's played as a midfielder he doesn't have a natural midfielders game. He's strong bodied but is regardless of that only an average inside ball winner. Additionally inside the contest by hand he's poor and lacking composure mostly just slamming it onto his boot. Despite his pace and endurance superiority he's a poor outside player as someone who isn't a natural linkup player and to find it on the outside really relies on handball receives which once opposition teams catch onto that or if they have their scouting report in will know not to let him get that cheap ball by hand.
Down back meanwhile with his strength as a guy who is 85kg already but then also has elite 20m pace, elite repeat speed and top 10 endurance at the draft combine in both the time trial and beep test and he's someone who firstly can do with anyone. Additionally down back that's where he's going to have the most opportunities to receive the cheap ball he really needs to be fed to be effective and then he can really break games open with his run and carry as someone who in a similar way to Seedsman can really penetrate the game with that drive he can generate.
The query is whether he can read it down back and become an effective intercept marker but I speculate that this aspect could come along to an acceptable standard with playing down back relatively earlier to learn.

From a fit standpoint down back with Toovey already who is a negating defender and then Brown and Keeffe as talls who are mostly negating if you play them both down back in the same team ideally amongst even two of those you'd want all your other defenders to be quality rebounders which Scharenberg, Reid, Seedsman and Freeman all are or in the case of Freeman could be.

In saying all this in season one Freeman will start in the VFL through the midfield and be given that opportunity. I'm just not as optimistic as the club are that he'll necessarily accumulate enough of it to be a relevant midfielder and if and when we do need to look for a different role for him or a way to find a role for him in the seniors I think a back pocket is the best way for Freeman to find his way into the side as someone who could be unusually dynamic and exciting by position.

 

[piedpiper32]

I'd be going with assuming perfect health
B: Alan Toovey Lachlan Keeffe Marley Williams
HB: Matthew Scharenberg Nathan Brown Paul Seedsman
Loose man: Ben Reid

Eventually I'd like Nathan Freeman to take Williams' position down back and have Williams become a power midfielder but that's another year away from happening.

It's a defensively sound back half but also more capable in a rebounding sense with Reid and Scharenberg your kickers and Seedsman your run and carry threat with perhaps Freeman in the future that second run and carry threat down back if we want to go out of the box and develop him down back.

Have been following a lot of the great threads and commentary on this site and thought it was time to join in.

Recently have been thinking of our best lineup and coming up with a back six was not easy given that Reid, Brown, and Keefe should all be there, but then this could make the six a bit top heavy plus I wanted to have Toovey, Williams, Scharenberg, and Seedsman all in there as well.

Knightmare's solution with a back six and a loose man in Reid is ideal in my view rather than trying to shoehorn so may guys into a standard back six team listing.

These days we often see a loose man in the back half and Reid is the perfect guy for this role. Yes he performed well in attack, but his best work is done as that loose man with his elite intercept marking and long, penetrating kicking. This 6+1 setup would be able to cover any type of opposition attack with Brown and Keefe taking on the key forwards/resting ruckman, Williams and Toovey the small/medium forwards, Scharenberg and Seedsman providing great drive and disposal off half back, and Reid being the backline general with the freedom to read the play and make the right choice whether that be to intercept, help out the others, or provide an outlet.

With this loose man setup in defence we would then play one less in the forward line with permanent forwards Cloke, White/resting ruckman, Elliott, Fasolo, and a rotating midfielder (Swan, Beams, Ball, Pendles, Sidebottom all can go through there). This still leaves the option of being able to swing Reid forward as an added dimension, however again I feel the bulk of his work should be done in the back half. Our forward line was fairly ordinary this season so with the addition of White, return of Fasolo, plus continued development of Elliott, there should be definite improvement in 2014 which means we will not need Reid to plug the holes and play up forward full-time.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I agree with KM on Freeman, and have also been thinking of him in the attacking small defender spot. As long as he can do it defensively, he can really get amongst it offensively by getting over the to contest, getting the HBR, and just accelerating through space. The big question mark is whether he has the decision making ability to be constantly putting it in his hands coming ouf the backline, but worth a try.

It will be interesting to see how our VFL back 6 takes shape next year.There are 10 guys fighting for four flank / pocket spots, in Ramsay, Yagmoor, Maxwell (possibly), Scharenberg, Langdon, Oxley, Armstrong, Clarke, Sinclair, maybe even Kelly.

Our bench will be full of medium / small defenders, and not midfielders, which is the typical preference...

 

[the mighty T]

everytime i hear the word evolve i think of pokemon

This year we were kinda like this

But with Scharenberg and Tooves in the 22, we'll be all like

 

[Knightmare]

Have been following a lot of the great threads and commentary on this site and thought it was time to join in.

Recently have been thinking of our best lineup and coming up with a back six was not easy given that Reid, Brown, and Keefe should all be there, but then this could make the six a bit top heavy plus I wanted to have Toovey, Williams, Scharenberg, and Seedsman all in there as well.

Knightmare's solution with a back six and a loose man in Reid is ideal in my view rather than trying to shoehorn so may guys into a standard back six team listing.

These days we often see a loose man in the back half and Reid is the perfect guy for this role. Yes he performed well in attack, but his best work is done as that loose man with his elite intercept marking and long, penetrating kicking. This 6+1 setup would be able to cover any type of opposition attack with Brown and Keefe taking on the key forwards/resting ruckman, Williams and Toovey the small/medium forwards, Scharenberg and Seedsman providing great drive and disposal off half back, and Reid being the backline general with the freedom to read the play and make the right choice whether that be to intercept, help out the others, or provide an outlet.

With this loose man setup in defence we would then play one less in the forward line with permanent forwards Cloke, White/resting ruckman, Elliott, Fasolo, and a rotating midfielder (Swan, Beams, Ball, Pendles, Sidebottom all can go through there). This still leaves the option of being able to swing Reid forward as an added dimension, however again I feel the bulk of his work should be done in the back half. Our forward line was fairly ordinary this season so with the addition of White, return of Fasolo, plus continued development of Elliott, there should be definite improvement in 2014 which means we will not need Reid to plug the holes and play up forward full-time.

Good to have you on board piedpiper.

And I agree with your thinking with regards to our optimal structure and how to utilise Reid.

As a region on the field I see the back half to be that most important region. We saw with Geelong this year who lost the clearance count pretty much every week still win more games than they lost because of how solid their backline was and how good everyone back there was at generating meaningful rebound. With Reid such a natural intercept marker when given the feedom but then also a damaging kick with those low, fast, long daggers he can launch and he's a real weapon on the rebound our back half has missed since he's started to play a more accountable game down back or shift forward in the latter part of 2013. His work can create so many easy scoring opportunities and help settle that back half as largely a next generation Maxwell just without the 1v1 or kicking issues.

From a setup standpoint this year we've mostly been playing with the one extra around the ball. Personally I don't find this necessary with our midfield personnel. Swan, Pendlebury, Beams and Ball by position are capable of going head to head with any midfield and have say Taylor Adams as that fifth guy who can rotate onto the ball and that's all that's needed with that group good enough to beat any on their day.

While our front half is often spoken about as our weaker link I'd rather put that attention into settling our back half. Premierships are won through a strong back half and a veteran back half who have played together for years and years and have perfect chemistry. The back half have not played all that much footy together with Seedsman, Williams and Keeffe relatively inexperienced and then Scharenberg also new and same story if we eventually want to integrate Freeman into that back half so that extra man in Reid will help with the stability and keep the opposition from hurting us which we've struggled with more than we should since 2012 so it probably requires that extra attention rather than the midfield.

I agree with KM on Freeman, and have also been thinking of him in the attacking small defender spot. As long as he can do it defensively, he can really get amongst it offensively by getting over the to contest, getting the HBR, and just accelerating through space. The big question mark is whether he has the decision making ability to be constantly putting it in his hands coming ouf the backline, but worth a try.

It will be interesting to see how our VFL back 6 takes shape next year.There are 10 guys fighting for four flank / pocket spots, in Ramsay, Yagmoor, Maxwell (possibly), Scharenberg, Langdon, Oxley, Armstrong, Clarke, Sinclair, maybe even Kelly.

Our bench will be full of medium / small defenders, and not midfielders, which is the typical preference...

In the back half I feel from the handball receive that Freeman will firstly get the more handball receives but then also off half back have more time and space to run on and execute his disposal and more freedom to run which is why I feel it may be a fit for him down the road.
He's despite what many seem to be suggesting a sound ball user by foot and a relatively penetrating but also accurate kick to target, it's more in close he can rush his disposal which is why through the midfield and up forward where he's got a tighter checking man it might not suit him as much as down back where you may not even notice any weakness there with very little of the ball coming from the contest or in close.

Ramsay can always play on a wing. Clarke I want on a wing next year so that he can use his running to see if he can find a role there. Oxley has the versatility to play half forward/wing in addition to down back then Langdon also has the versatility to play up the field so they can all fit into the same team at VFL level. Scharenberg also has the versatility to push forward, though I'd be keeping him down back. It just takes a little mixing and matching but with injuries the numbers will no doubt reduce.

 

[soreplums]

Toovey--- brown/keefe---- Williams
Scharenberg---- Keeffe/brown---- Reid

Could slip seed and Young in there.

Like Reid's long raking left footer to set up attack from half back. Young and scharenburg can do the same. If Reid is up forward, I'd like Cloke to go back to chf.

 

[BEEG]

I think Keefe Brown and Reid will all play down back with Toovey and Williams

 

[rand corp]

Williams, Frost, Oxley
Seedsman, Keefe, Sharenberg

I see Sharenberg developing into the backline general much in the same way Maxy did be Shazza will be a better player

 

[Jelly Bean]

Ramsay can always play on a wing. Clarke I want on a wing next year so that he can use his running to see if he can find a role there. Oxley has the versatility to play half forward/wing in addition to down back then Langdon also has the versatility to play up the field so they can all fit into the same team at VFL level. Scharenberg also has the versatility to push forward, though I'd be keeping him down back. It just takes a little mixing and matching but with injuries the numbers will no doubt reduce.

Yeah, he can, and that is where he will need to spend time, moreso because he will be forced out of the backline than because that is where he is expected to mature into a senior AFL player. I know Langdon and Ox can as well, but more for the same reason. And anyway, when these guys push up, they will start coming up into the areas of Kennedy, Broomhead, Freeman, Mooney, Karnezis, Marsh, Lynch, etc.

I know we say we can play these guys in other positions, but we would be doing it in a reactive rather than proactive way (i.e. playing them there because there is no room anywhere else). I would like to see someone'e VFL team that doesn't involve having 2-3 players on the bench whose best position is arguably as a small / medium defender.

It is not a criticism per se, just an acknowedgement that our list is overweight with players of this description, and therefore probably slightly underweight in pure midfielders.

 

[RuFiO]

This year we were kinda like this

But with Scharenberg and Tooves in the 22, we'll be all like

I'm sorry but we were already like this to start off with:

 

[Scottabe_pendles]

Everyone calling for Reid to go back - how short is your memory?

First 12 -15 rounds with Reid as a back and a 'two tall' forward line, we were beyond poor going forward and Cloke was getting beaten regularly 3-1 the resting ruckman would mark at chb and have no one to go forward to except Cloke ...

It was awful thankfully Buckley noticed this and surprise surprise - we played three tall forwards and improved out of site

Pies went back to two talls in finals and forward structures were rubbish again, as bad as lynch was at times and as easily as it rebounded out of f/50 at times, we need three tall forwards including a ruck forward to ease the pressure on Cloke.

So until an adequate set up of three tall forwards doesn't involve Reid then he will be a forward (and don't say goldsack/maxwell/caff forward because that's been tried to little effect)

 

[soreplums]

Everyone calling for Reid to go back - how short is your memory?

First 12 -15 rounds with Reid as a back and a 'two tall' forward line, we were beyond poor going forward and Cloke was getting beaten regularly 3-1 the resting ruckman would mark at chb and have no one to go forward to except Cloke ...

It was awful thankfully Buckley noticed this and surprise surprise - we played three tall forwards and improved out of site

Pies went back to two talls in finals and forward structures were rubbish again, as bad as lynch was at times and as easily as it rebounded out of f/50 at times, we need three tall forwards including a ruck forward to ease the pressure on Cloke.

So until an adequate set up of three tall forwards doesn't involve Reid then he will be a forward (and don't say goldsack/maxwell/caff forward because that's been tried to little effect)

I'd like to give Cloke, lynch, white a go as the three talls and have fas, Elliott and Dwyer/Blair/side/ Adams as the smalls

 

[Knightmare]

Everyone calling for Reid to go back - how short is your memory?

First 12 -15 rounds with Reid as a back and a 'two tall' forward line, we were beyond poor going forward and Cloke was getting beaten regularly 3-1 the resting ruckman would mark at chb and have no one to go forward to except Cloke ...

It was awful thankfully Buckley noticed this and surprise surprise - we played three tall forwards and improved out of site

Pies went back to two talls in finals and forward structures were rubbish again, as bad as lynch was at times and as easily as it rebounded out of f/50 at times, we need three tall forwards including a ruck forward to ease the pressure on Cloke.

So until an adequate set up of three tall forwards doesn't involve Reid then he will be a forward (and don't say goldsack/maxwell/caff forward because that's been tried to little effect)

Reid in 2011 was an All Australian down back thanks to be allowed to play with more freedom and being allowed to be more of an intercepter whereas under Nathan when played back he's been expected to be more of a shutdown key defender which as we've all noticed hasn't allowed him to impact games in the same way.

Give Reid the freedom down back as a loose defender and he's the most important player to winning on our list if he can recapture his 2011 form and kicking which I've found he's against that standard struggled with since.

As a forward Reid was effective this year but not best on our list good as I'd argue he was in the 2011 H+A season with what he was doing.

 

[TheFreshBanana]

Knightmare

What are your thoughts on Freeman at pick 10 then? It sounds like he has a few too many cons at this point as a pick 10. Or is he worth it because of the speed he provides?