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Injuries....Bad luck or something else?

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BrizzyBandit

BrizzyBandit

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Brisbane Lions
Mostly I think bad luck..... But you couldn't be blamed for wondering if we have the right conditioning staff or not. Maybe it's the poor training facilities....

Probably worth a dedicated thread at this point. It's a big issue at the Lions.
 
Good thread. If it was just this year l could understand it being bad luck. Plus some of these are contact injuries and can't be blamed on Burton but this has been happening for years. I remember last year was full of injuries as well.
Something needs to change.
 
An obvious avoidable injury is Jack Martin injuring his hamstring a couple of minutes into a game.
It's hard to comment without knowing anything about what goes on behind the scenes, really. We haven't had a spate of soft tissue injuries- that's never a good sign.
 

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I think Lions have had bad luck... compare that to the Suns for instance which is IMO due to a poor medical team with loads of soft tissue injuries. Actually thinking about it over an extended period I'm not really sure what's up with our injuries. Been going on for years now. Maybe just a young side with more responsibilities to draftees than there should be. Overworked?
 
SizeMatters said:
I think Lions have had bad luck... compare that to the Suns for instance which is IMO due to a poor medical team with loads of soft tissue injuries. Actually thinking about it over an extended period I'm not really sure what's up with our injuries. Been going on for years now. Maybe just a young side with more responsibilities to draftees than there should be. Overworked?
Click to expand...
It's not just the young blokes tho. Redden is injured, Adcock got injured, Harwood injured, Hanley is injured, Paine is injured, Merret is injured, Staker is injured, McGuane is injured, Claye Beams is injured. These aren't young guys that are getting injured.
 
All I know is that I'm sick of the Lions season being ruined by injury. Our injured list is beyond a joke.

The game is faster than ever...... We need to look at the surface our players are training and playing on.

The hard Gabba might be a contributor? I just refuse to believe it's possible to have such bad luck the more I think about it.
 
Our younger players did not look as cut or as well developed as the St Kilda brigade, take out Nick Robertson, Zac O'Brien, Ryan Lester and Stefan Martin and we have a real lack of blokes who look cut. Little Jack Lone and Jack Sinclair from St Kilda look more developed than most our players and they are on 1st year. I think we have definitely sacrificed strength over elusive running stamina of which we don't seemed to have developed either. Time for a new direction in the fitness staff.
 
Little known fact: the Gabba was built on an Indian pet cemetery. That's also why it took the Bulls so long to win the Sheffield Shield.
 
Most of the injuries are contact injuries, so you can't blame our conditioning staff. I've been critical of them in the past, especially when it comes to misdiagnosing/transparency with members but our run of injuries this year cannot be attributed to the medical team. Our sluggish start to the season is another question.

As mentioned above I'd be more concerned if we had a spate of soft tissue injuries ala Essendon a few years ago. Right now we're terribly unlucky and I think I speak on behalf of us all when I say I can't wait for the bye
 
We can sit around and make all the excuses in the world for Burton, but we are constantly decimated by injury and have been every year he has been here.

It is his job to condition the team, manage injury and keep players on the park - he has failed in all 3 of those areas IMO.

He has a fascination with making guys drop weight - dayne beams looks thin as he has ever been ATM, you can barely recognize staker he is so skinny.. And he just doesen't know how to physically develop players, or at least it appears he doesen't or chooses not to. the only player we have gone "whooa" at and to have physically impressed in the last 3 years is steph and look how he wins 1 on 1s all over the ground.

His philosophy seems ridged and dated, we have never been close to having Elite endurance, our in jury toll is consistently horrific - I think he gets a pass mark because he is a 'likeable' character. If he was less savvy or a bit more out there, people would always be jumping to his defense.

Oh and there is this thing called 'pre-hab' in sport today, it's massive, a large proportion of training technique, and whilst obviously most contact injuries are unavoidable, it is supposed to prepare joints for impact, limiting damage and quick recovery.
 

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lukiuslion said:
We can sit around and make all the excuses in the world for Burton, but we are constantly decimated by injury and have been every year he has been here.
Click to expand...

Speaking for myself, and I suspect some others, pointing out the fallacy of blaming Burton for our contact injuries does not mean that we're endorsing him in his current role. Just that he should only be criticized for stuff he actually has control over...

lukiuslion said:
It is his job to condition the team, manage injury and keep players on the park - he has failed in all 3 of those areas IMO.

He has a fascination with making guys drop weight - dayne beams looks thin as he has ever been ATM, you can barely recognize staker he is so skinny.. And he just doesen't know how to physically develop players, or at least it appears he doesen't or chooses not to. the only player we have gone "whooa" at and to have physically impressed in the last 3 years is steph and look how he wins 1 on 1s all over the ground.

His philosophy seems ridged and dated, we have never been close to having Elite endurance, our in jury toll is consistently horrific - I think he gets a pass mark because he is a 'likeable' character. If he was less savvy or a bit more out there, people would always be jumping to his defense.

Oh and there is this thing called 'pre-hab' in sport today, it's massive, a large proportion of training technique, and whilst obviously most contact injuries are unavoidable, it is supposed to prepare joints for impact, limiting damage and quick recovery.
Click to expand...

...i.e. all of these.

I think Burton has been a significant improvement over our previous fitness coaches looking at a few key metrics. He's been with us since the 2010-2011 offseason, and before the gutting of our team over the last couple of years (obviously going to have an impact on this because the younger players don't build up fitness to run out full games immediately) we had a pretty good record in 4th quarters, winning over half in two of his three full years in charge, the exception being 2011 immediately after he took over (2013: 12-10, 2012: 12-9-1, 2011: 7-14-1). Compared to the previous years when I recall us getting out to leads and then collapsing in the fourth, and the figures back that up with only one of the three years having us winning more 4th quarters than we lost (2010: 8-14, 2009: 12-10, 2008: 6-15-1, although the last may have been under another fitness regime again pre-Voss).

The other issue that we used to have that he's largely cleared up has been soft tissue injuries. These plagued our team back before Burton and would stretch on for two to three times longer than initial estimates. IIRC at one point we had four players out at once with quad injuries. These have greatly reduced.

However it doesn't answer whether he's still up to scratch. An improvement over terrible doesn't necessarily leave us at "good", let alone "state of the art" which is where every AFL club should be aiming these days. Honestly I'm going to punt on that decision. I don't know nearly enough about fitness programs of AFL players to make an informed comment, especially the difference between us and other clubs. I've seen some of the stuff at the Giants and it seems worlds above what we have, but that's purely facilities - that's not coaching/training programs.
 
acuguy said:
Our younger players did not look as cut or as well developed as the St Kilda brigade, take out Nick Robertson, Zac O'Brien, Ryan Lester and Stefan Martin and we have a real lack of blokes who look cut. Little Jack Lone and Jack Sinclair from St Kilda look more developed than most our players and they are on 1st year. I think we have definitely sacrificed strength over elusive running stamina of which we don't seemed to have developed either. Time for a new direction in the fitness staff.
Click to expand...
I agree. Just went over and had a look at most other AFL clubs and their new draftees put on at least 5-6kg in their first seasons ans we are lucky to add 3kg... have no idea why we are pushing our draftees to be elite runners so early if they can't even hold their feet over a contested situation. Most other clubs look to gain size first then endurance so the young bodies can at least hold their own at state level first to make it easier for them to develop.
 
I have questioned our fitness staff in the past, but more in relation to "fitness". We have been poor in this department over the last few years as well, but think there has been an improvement this year, with a better ability to physically run out games (albeit with poor results).
How much fitness contributes to injuries like Jed's calf or Redden's back, I don't know, but obviously ACL's and broken fingers can't be pinned on anyone.

We seem to have terrible luck with foot stress, which I don't know the cause of.
Whilst there is a whole lot of bad luck, can conditioning reduce the susceptibility to ACLs, stress fractures etc? And are we giving our players the best chance?
 
If we're just talking injuries and not fitness, which this thread has defined as the topic, then I don't think that a lot of our injury issues are staff or program related.

Really the injuries you can attribute to conditioning staff are soft tissue ones and TBH I don't think we've had a grossly disproportionate amount of those this season. Some others are harder to pin on. Are Redden's back issues related to some sort of training issue? What about Merrett? Or are they just freak things that are occurring to certain players.

As someone mentioned, a number of years ago we had a large number of guys out with quad injuries which would tend to point to issues with the training methods, loads etc. I tend to think we haven't really had an onset of one particular issue or related issue. Maybe some foot stress stuff perhaps. I do wonder whether this could be related to the firmness of our training facilities though rather than what we're actually doing program wise.

The cause of injuries is a really hard one to categorise, mainly because there could be several things that all go into contribute to it. Are we looking like we have no issues with our conditioning, certainly not and I would imagine that its something that the club is monitoring on an ongoing basis. However some of them have been just down to bad luck. Also worth keeping in mind that almost every player running out on a weekend of footy has some sort of niggle or slight injury. It would be very rare for players to be 100%. Sometimes these collective small injuries just slip into something a bit more serious, and unfortunately for us its happening all at once.

Calls for players not to be played until they're 100% is fanciful at best, if you went around and surveyed all the players in the AFL I think most would be astounded at the number who are playing, or have played during the year with some sort of injury.
 
Fatcat08 said:
What about Merrett?
Click to expand...

I remember the club, maybe in the BUPA report thing I'm not sure, mentioned that Merretts injury setbacks were attributed to a rare complication. I would read that as very unlucky.
 
Fatcat08 said:
Are Redden's back issues related to some sort of training issue? What about Merrett? Or are they just freak things that are occurring to certain players.
Click to expand...
Redden hurt his back fooling around in a game of soccer. Leppa was NOT happy when he heard about it.
 

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Looks like there should be plenty of Elite Performance Managerial positions up for grabs... every club seems to be experiencing injuries! :eek:

ADELAIDE
(Updated: 26 May 2015 6:30pm)

BRISBANE LIONS
(Updated: 26 May 2015 6:30pm)

CARLTON
  • Ciaran Byrne - Hamstring - 1-2 Weeks
  • Bryce Gibbs - Back - 2 Weeks
  • Cameron Giles - Foot - Indefinite
  • Lachie Henderson - Hamstring - Test
  • Michael Jamison - Calf - 1 Week
  • Chris Judd - Knee Soreness - 1 Week
  • Ciaran Sheehan - Groin - 12 Weeks
  • Andrew Walker - Knee - Test
(Updated: 27 May 2015 12pm)



COLLINGWOOD
(Updated: 26 May 2015 6:30pm)



ESSENDON
(Updated: 26 May 2015 7pm)

FREMANTLE
(Updated: 26 May 2015 7pm)



GEELONG
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)

(Updated 28 May 2015 8:15pm)

GOLD COAST
(Updated: 26 May 2015 1:30pm)



GWS
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)



HAWTHORN
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)


MELBOURNE
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)



NORTH MELBOURNE
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)

PORT ADELAIDE
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)

RICHMOND
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:45pm)



ST KILDA
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:45pm)



SYDNEY SWANS
  • Isaac Heeney - PCL Knee - 3-5 Weeks
  • Alex Johnson - Knee - Indefinite
  • Lewis Melican - Groin - 1 Weeks
  • Lloyd Perris - Knee - 3 Weeks
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:45pm)

WEST COAST
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:50pm)



WESTERN BULLDOGS
 
dlanod said:
Little known fact: the Gabba was built on an Indian pet cemetery. That's also why it took the Bulls so long to win the Sheffield Shield.
Click to expand...
Suncorp Stadium is built on an actual cemetery and doesn't seem to prevent the teams playing there from succeeding. :cry:
 
bato said:
Redden hurt his back fooling around in a game of soccer. Leppa was NOT happy when he heard about it.
Click to expand...
Lions need to bring in Frank Lowy then for this weekends game, that guy can take a tumble on a soccer field and bounce back well.
 
blynd_freddie said:
Looks like there should be plenty of Elite Performance Managerial positions up for grabs... every club seems to be experiencing injuries! :eek:

ADELAIDE
(Updated: 26 May 2015 6:30pm)

BRISBANE LIONS
(Updated: 26 May 2015 6:30pm)

CARLTON
  • Ciaran Byrne - Hamstring - 1-2 Weeks
  • Bryce Gibbs - Back - 2 Weeks
  • Cameron Giles - Foot - Indefinite
  • Lachie Henderson - Hamstring - Test
  • Michael Jamison - Calf - 1 Week
  • Chris Judd - Knee Soreness - 1 Week
  • Ciaran Sheehan - Groin - 12 Weeks
  • Andrew Walker - Knee - Test
(Updated: 27 May 2015 12pm)



COLLINGWOOD
(Updated: 26 May 2015 6:30pm)



ESSENDON
(Updated: 26 May 2015 7pm)

FREMANTLE
(Updated: 26 May 2015 7pm)



GEELONG
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)

(Updated 28 May 2015 8:15pm)

GOLD COAST
(Updated: 26 May 2015 1:30pm)



GWS
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)



HAWTHORN
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)


MELBOURNE
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)



NORTH MELBOURNE
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)

PORT ADELAIDE
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:30pm)

RICHMOND
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:45pm)



ST KILDA
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:45pm)



SYDNEY SWANS
  • Isaac Heeney - PCL Knee - 3-5 Weeks
  • Alex Johnson - Knee - Indefinite
  • Lewis Melican - Groin - 1 Weeks
  • Lloyd Perris - Knee - 3 Weeks
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:45pm)

WEST COAST
(Updated: 27 May 2015 1:50pm)



WESTERN BULLDOGS
Click to expand...


This is a bit dated in relation to this convo. The thread was initiated given a further 5 players are now on that list - giving us a total injury list of 20 players. It was already high but now we are up there with GC as the worst hit in the league. We have generally been league leaders in injury statistics the last 2 years too (from memory, I don't wish to produce pie graphs and stats to support this). Even without the 5 extra players, most other teams have normal, manageable injury lists, we still look particularly bad.
 
Yeah but look at Sydney.

Once again (and over the last 5 years or more), they have very few injuries on a continual basis.

Must be doing something better that everyone else....
 
dlanod said:
Speaking for myself, and I suspect some others, pointing out the fallacy of blaming Burton for our contact injuries does not mean that we're endorsing him in his current role. Just that he should only be criticized for stuff he actually has control over...



...i.e. all of these.

I think Burton has been a significant improvement over our previous fitness coaches looking at a few key metrics. He's been with us since the 2010-2011 offseason, and before the gutting of our team over the last couple of years (obviously going to have an impact on this because the younger players don't build up fitness to run out full games immediately) we had a pretty good record in 4th quarters, winning over half in two of his three full years in charge, the exception being 2011 immediately after he took over (2013: 12-10, 2012: 12-9-1, 2011: 7-14-1). Compared to the previous years when I recall us getting out to leads and then collapsing in the fourth, and the figures back that up with only one of the three years having us winning more 4th quarters than we lost (2010: 8-14, 2009: 12-10, 2008: 6-15-1, although the last may have been under another fitness regime again pre-Voss).

The other issue that we used to have that he's largely cleared up has been soft tissue injuries. These plagued our team back before Burton and would stretch on for two to three times longer than initial estimates. IIRC at one point we had four players out at once with quad injuries. These have greatly reduced.

However it doesn't answer whether he's still up to scratch. An improvement over terrible doesn't necessarily leave us at "good", let alone "state of the art" which is where every AFL club should be aiming these days. Honestly I'm going to punt on that decision. I don't know nearly enough about fitness programs of AFL players to make an informed comment, especially the difference between us and other clubs. I've seen some of the stuff at the Giants and it seems worlds above what we have, but that's purely facilities - that's not coaching/training programs.
Click to expand...

Great response. Yeah I accept all of that. In fairness, in 2012 I re-call viewing us as a 'fit' side who often came home pretty hard (Geelong comeback etc) we generally won a lot of close games too.

I think as Leigh said on gameday relation to Voss, "in the end the stats will get you" I am not sure if he said 'numbers', 'results'.. but he meant, at the end of the day, after 4-5 years - all the excuse making, reason giving, 'we are about to run the corner' talk can no longer save you, your numbers will get you. And I believe Burton has unfortunately (whether is luck or hard ground or what ever) overseen a phase where our team is constantly crippled by injury.
 

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