News Interesting Article Re Luke Ball

[P0508]

Not to sure how to post a link to a forum so here goes:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...asnt-fast-enough/story-e6frf9n6-1225999112923

Thought this might clear things up one way or another on how Luke Ball got to the Pies just in time to win a flag and stick it up the saints.

 

[The Big Steele]

Speed isn't what he brings to the game. Hard ball gets are his specialty.

Ball is plenty quick enough.

And tough enough.

St Kilda just made the wrong decision.

 

[Gone Critical]

This confirms pretty much what Pies supporters have always thought

Ball was much more pushed out than jumped ship

Ball was always a player Saints couldn't be seen to just cut. Too much potential backlash. Lyon handled it badly though.

In early 2011 we can say Ball would have still been an important player at St Kilda if kept. He as 5th in the premiers B&F. The player they earmarked to replace him in Armitage didn't measure up

Simply put "Ross Lyon you were wrong" to borrow a phrase from a past Collingwood captain

 

[FIGJAM]

Lyon lives in a fantasy world.

Fortunately for us, this fantasy world has delivered us a flag and looks likely to render them shithouse for years if they can't sneak one this year.

Ball is a bit ploddish and a ho hum kick, but he can run all day, throws himself on grenades all day and does a great deal of defensive work tight in packs.

Worrying about him not being Dale Thomas-like in outside ground coverage and pressure after what he's given you in inside work is moronic.

Furthermore, there are like two or three players in the comp who can do it all as midfielders. In terms of consistency, only Judd and Ablett spring immediately to mind, and even then only Judd has the grunt inside thing down, whereas Ablett is more of a poacher and linker, with phenominal pressure. Their own Goddard is near complete, although isn't required in Hayes territory (which realistically was probably Ball's only problem).

The overall concept of having a game breaker like Lovett works well in principle, assuming you ignore his priors and assume that his work ethic is now more like Dane Swan. They needed a game breaker, but they got a clyb breaker. "IN sacked Saint Andrew Lovett's first time-trial, he came last, 50m behind a 200cm rookie.". Gotta laugh!

Then they've also gone for quick fixes that have weaknesses that make Luke Ball's look insignificant. Peake has toe, but is hackish. Poor Jesse Smith was lame before the got him. Polo? Well, they must know something I don't, because he's ordinary, despite protestations from Tiges fans that he could be something if he gets his head right. Begly was a coup amongst coups! Dawson has been exposed as serviceable at best, but his supposed 'second coming' was fraudulent.

Ray has probably been their best mature pick up (Gamble may be worth the punt...so to speak! And the rucks have given utility.), but Ray's like the inverse of Ball, yet will probably get exposed just as much in terms of defensive application with any zone / swarm.

Again, Lyon lives in a fantasy world. In this instance, he's thrown the baby out with the bathwater and then filled the tub up with sewage.

 

[HFF]

And for the record, just who exactly is "fast" in that Saints midfield anyway?

Luke Ball is a hero.

Thanks again, Ross.

 

[Swooop]

My former strong dislike of that club is fading.

I feel sorry for them now, well not so much the club, but some of their better fans having to put up with the neverending trail of shit.

What a pathetic club.

Thank you Ross for Luke, he was a huge part of why we, as opposed to you, won the 2010 flag.

 

[Old Spice]

It's really just a matter of Ball's work being the same as Hayes, and hayes nudging him out. Seeing Hayes get caught a few times in the GF replay shows he's no lightfoot either.

At the end of the day we got what we really needed in an inside player who just blankets opposition players and can feed out the ball.

 

[daics cousin]

I am so so glad we got Lukey.
He was an important player for us especially during the year with his hard ball gets.
A tough uncompromising player.

Hey i am glad Lukey was playing for us during the grand Final last year,cause if he was playing for the Saints in that first grand final he may have helped steer the saints to victory in the cliches when it mattered.

Especially when the going got tough in that drawn grand final.

Lukey your a champ ,and now a premiership player
If we win the flag again this year it will be even sweeter for luke ball.
He knows he made the right decision,he is now an integral part of our leadership group,and what he must be saviouringf is that when all seemed lost,he came to the pies his childhood team,and glory is his reward.

Go luke, one flag is not enough your chance now to be part of a dynasty,and he will help deliver.

 

[Shutty05]

Out Ball (too slow)
In Peak (has speed)

What a joke, did they forget they are coaching a football team?? Their loss our gain

 

[mattys123]

Finally, the truth comes out, that Ball didn't want to leave, but StKilda basically didn't want him anymore.

StKilda are a joke, on and off the field, and this is just more proof.

And the fact they have a "go" at Grant Thomas in the same book, makes you laugh, as I can't see too many "psychological" differences between Thomas or Lyon, they are both egotistical morons.

Thanks for Ball, he wasn't too bad in the Grand Final Replay, or the Prelim, or the other 10-12 games he was clearly in the best players for us.

Speed isn't everything, ask Greg Williams, ask Tony Shaw, the ability to get the ball still is important in modern day football, but I guess StKilda don't think so.

 

[daics_35]

Thank god for that book, so all the Saints muppets can stop blaming Ball for walking out their club, (not that I care about their whinging) including the press conf Reiwoldt had last year and said we offered him a contract and he chose not to sign it and accussed him of walking out on the Saints. Surely you cant blame a bloke for wanting to go to the best club in Australia after his coach had no faith in him and he got a reduced contract.

 

[Windhover]

This confirms pretty much what Pies supporters have always thought

Ball was much more pushed out than jumped ship

Ball was always a player Saints couldn't be seen to just cut. Too much potential backlash. Lyon handled it badly though.

In early 2011 we can say Ball would have still been an important player at St Kilda if kept. He as 5th in the premiers B&F. The player they earmarked to replace him in Armitage didn't measure up

Simply put "Ross Lyon you were wrong" to borrow a phrase from a past Collingwood captain

I do not agree with much of your post or your conclusion. We already knew that Ball was more pushed than jumped so I can agree at least with that statement.
You speak of there being "too much potential backlash". I did not notice any actual backlash at St Kilda last year (they did make 2 grand finals with a number of injured/underdone players) so the aints must have handled that pretty well.
The diagnosis of Dr Ross was that the aints lacked speed. I think he was right in 2009 and was even more obviously right in 2010 as the grand finals showed. Ball was their most obvious slug. Ball going to the pies was an obvious win-win. You had a lack of quality in-the-guts footballers with your two best, Swan and Pendlebury, needed for run-and carry duties as well. Likewise it was recognised that two mainstays of your midfield for a decade in Lockyer and O'Bree were getting close to their use-by dates.

You may be right that Dr. Ross had earmarked Armitage as the replacement for Ball but he did not pin all his plans on that. He was active in the recruitment of Lovett, a highly talented footballer with pace to burn. Lovett was a big gamble but the stakes were high. Had it paid off I have no doubt that even with the injury during the game to Gardiner (their only dedicated ruckman playing) and the obvious restrictions to Gram and Dal Santo, Lovett would have been able to penetrate the well-executed Collingwood spreading defence sufficiently to change the result of the first Grand Final. Don't forget that bounce away from Milne at the end. I did not think Lovett was worth the risk at the time but, at the least for all the smarty pants like me, Dr. Ross has proved that had Lovett worked out he would have made the difference. As further back-up he also topped up with the speedy but flawed Peake.

If the aints had kept Ball then in the 2010 GFs you would have probably played Lockyer and exploited their lack of pace all day. Put simply, Dr. Ross came up with the correct diagnosis but stuffed up the treatment (particularly in getting nothing for Ball in a trade).

 

[Gone Critical]

It's really just a matter of Ball's work being the same as Hayes, and hayes nudging him out. Seeing Hayes get caught a few times in the GF replay shows he's no lightfoot either.

At the end of the day we got what we really needed in an inside player who just blankets opposition players and can feed out the ball.

No that gives Saints a too easy out. Hayes and Ball played together for years successfully. Armitage was earmarked by the Saints to be able to offer as much as Ball did. He didnt. They got Ball wrong and have paid a price

Ball was fitter in 2010 and would have probably had a great year at Saints if he had stayed. Plenty of players follow up an average year with a v good one.

I dont buy the argument that Ball was great for us but wouldn't have had a similar ouput at the Saints.

His last game at the Saints, a GF , was v good. If Lyon had the courage to leave on a player who was going v well rather than coach by numbers things may have turned out differently in the 2009 GF. Even the 2010 GF.

 

[PieNSauce]

From what I can see Lyon's whole premise was just plain wrong. It seems to me that it doesn't matter a damn how fast you are if you haven't got the ball and that's exactly where he erred. Ball was clearly St Kilda's number one ball getter regardless of whether he was fast or a great kick.

 

[Gone Critical]

I do not agree with much of your post or your conclusion. We already knew that Ball was more pushed than jumped so I can agree at least with that statement.
You speak of there being "too much potential backlash". I did not notice any actual backlash at St Kilda last year (they did make 2 grand finals with a number of injured/underdone players) so the aints must have handled that pretty well.
.

You misunderstood me

The backlash I refer to is its difficult for a club to sell cutting a favorite sun who has bled for the club and put the team above his body and fitness on the field countless times

A peripheral player who is no longer seen to be part of the plan can be cut coldly and with limited emotion. Supporter backlash would be different if you dump Ball without due recognition.

Lyon wanted Ball out but sought to do it in a way that would look palatable. Partly that involved smearing his reputation a little. His deficiencies were made very public by the club.

Your stuff about Lovett only muddies things. Lovett and Ball in the same team would have clearly been a good thing in hindsight if the Lovett experiment hadnt been such a failure

Lyon not only got the diagnosis wrong he also stuffed up the operation

 

[Old Spice]

No that gives Saints a too easy out. Hayes and Ball played together for years successfully. Armitage was earmarked by the Saints to be able to offer as much as Ball did. He didnt. They go Ball wrong and have paid a price

Ball was fitter in 2010 and would have probably had a great year at Saints if he had stayed. Plenty of players follow up an average year with a v good one.

I dont buy the argument that Ball was great for us but wouldn't have had a similar ouput at the Saints.

His last game at the Saints, a GF , was v good. If Lyon had the courage to leave on a player who was going v well rather than coach by numbers things may have turned out differently in the 2009 GF. Even the 2010 GF.

The Saints are already fairly slow as is, and keeping two similar midfielders who perform the same functions and are both slow, meant Ball was put on the outer. Although it's lucky for the Saints Hayes didn't have a dog year with injury.

On the other hand we're reasonably zippy and really did need a Luke Ball type. We did have Cheeseball, but for me Ball was an upgrade for that position.

Hopefully we can get a slight improvement in fitness and pace, but ultimately it wont matter too much as that's not the need he fulfils for us.

 

[FIGJAM]

The Saints are already fairly slow as is, and keeping two similar midfielders who perform the same functions and are both slow, meant Ball was put on the outer. Although it's lucky for the Saints Hayes didn't have a dog year with injury.

It's certainly a point worth considering, especially when both players were on big bucks.

Whilst far cheaper though, we managed to run out the season with a Ball / Blair combo, with rapidfire rotations to ensure that pace issues for both players were minimised.

The cost to hold both Ball and Hayes forced their hand a bit, so Lyon making up "logic" to suit keeping Hayes may not be all that surprising. But in that event, try to get a deal done. We worked our arse off trying to get a deal to suit and coudl have parted with Wellingham (was going to go to Norf) and they could have had Wellingham if their talent recognition was up to scratch.

But there's the problem, their mature aged talent recognition is deplorable. The deal they wanted was for us to somehow land them Andrejs Everitt. They seem to like 'name players' no matter how shit they are. Everitt is bona fide shit and is neither a KP player, nor a midfielder and lacks the heart that makes Goldie and Tooves of utility for us.

 

[Gone Critical]

The Saints are already fairly slow as is, and keeping two similar midfielders who perform the same functions and are both slow, meant Ball was put on the outer. Although it's lucky for the Saints Hayes didn't have a dog year with injury.

On the other hand we're reasonably zippy and really did need a Luke Ball type. We did have Cheeseball, but for me Ball was an upgrade for that position.

Hopefully we can get a slight improvement in fitness and pace, but ultimately it wont matter too much as that's not the need he fulfils for us.

I understand that but to leave that as the whole explanation is to easy for the Saints. Ball may be a better fit a Collingwood but that doesnt mean he wouldnt have been valuable at Saints. Lyon made the opposite assessment but in my opinion was proved wrong. The Ball/Hayes combination seemed to work pretty well the last game they played together.

Bottom line is St Kilda would have been a better team in 2010 with Ball on their list. He would have been part of their GF team and plays good finals footy

 

[Pie eyed]

Ross Lyon identified what he saw as a weakness and as he is required to do as coach tried to address the perceived cause.
I have no problem with that what-so-ever and any supporter would expect as much from a coach. History proves that he was wrong in his reasoning, but it's not like no other coach has ever got something wrong and been shown up by a player.

What I take from this story is the underhanded and less than honourable way the Club portrayed Balls leaving in the media in at least 2 press conferences.
Lyon lied about the reasons for Ball leaving, co-opting his Captain, a very good friend of Ball, into the lie, having him falsely claim that Ball deserted the club, "walking out" in fact on a lucrative contract offer for more money at another club.

This exposes Lyon and Reiwoldt for what they really are, a dishonest, spiteful and scheming Coach and a man easily led to betray a team-mate and one of his best mates.
This must again call into question Reiwoldt's Captaincy credentials.

It also puts paid to the claims of "the facts" surrounding the Ball's move to Collingwood by some Saints posters.

 

[Old Spice]

I'm also pretty certain that Ball was informed that he couldn't be guaranteed a spot, hence his exclusion late in 2009, and that he saw the writing on the wall in terms of team selection. So really, it was reduced contract but more importantly reduced opportunity that motivated the move.

On whether he would have been valuable at the Saints, the money issue is important with all their mega-Arians and so forth. Clearly they didn't want two slow and expensive players who weren't really versatile enough to throw around the ground. They obviously felt they could do better with hayes and a (series of) speedster(s) that all proved disappointments. So in that regard, it was a fail, but as Figleaf states, perhaps of individual player judgment rather than the general design.

 

[Thommo 42]

To be fair, Ball was competing with Lenny Hayes for a certain role and despite having very thick Black & White glasses, its hard to suggest that Ball is better than Hayes. Although I would argue that if he is used exclusively in & under, he is just as effective.

Ball by coming to Collingwood was competing with Shane O'Bree for a spot, so he is always going to be in the best 22.

Thats the nuts and bolts of it really, we had a need for a player like that and the Saints didn't. They just handled his exit really poorly.

 

[Ed D]

Nice to know what Ross Lyon actually thought of Ball. I find it strange that he came up with the idea that he couldn't play Ball for more than 8 minutes at a time though, it's not like Ball has fitness issues. Oh well, their loss, our gain.

The thing that is stupid is that Lyon said anyone who doesn't want to play can walk out. He basically told Ball he can't trust him on the field and offered him a reduced contract, then when Ball said he wanted out he appaered to get upset about it and didn't want to trade him.

I think Ball is more effective at Collingwood than he would have been at St Kilda, but I still think he would have been a starting player there if it wasn't for Lyon's thoughts on pace.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I'm also pretty certain that Ball was informed that he couldn't be guaranteed a spot, hence his exclusion late in 2009, and that he saw the writing on the wall in terms of team selection. quote]

Who gets guaranteed a spot?

Again I just want to point out the irony - there are some fans on this forum who are quick to label people like Anthony as weak because he did the same thing as described above for Ball... One is lauded a hero, the other labelled weak and lazy...

It is the same for the Presti / Fraser thing. They both have acknowledged in various finals games that they weren't fit enough to play. To very very different reactions on this board.

 

[Old Spice]

Who gets guaranteed a spot?

Again I just want to point out the irony - there are some fans on this forum who are quick to label people like Anthony as weak because he did the same thing as described above for Ball... One is lauded a hero, the other labelled weak and lazy...

It is the same for the Presti / Fraser thing. They both have acknowledged in various finals games that they weren't fit enough to play. To very very different reactions on this board.

Is that you Jack?

I was going through the reasons that motivated Ball's departure, not being guaranteed a spot in the Saints line-up, when he probably felt - correctly as it turns out - that he could get one elsewhere and deserved that opportunity was the major contributer I'd suggest.

What this has to do with Jack Anthony et al I do not understand. Apples, jumping castles, frogs and..ahhh...moss.

 

[NeRFaHoLIc]

Again I just want to point out the irony - there are some fans on this forum who are quick to label people like Anthony as weak because he did the same thing as described above for Ball... One is lauded a hero, the other labelled weak and lazy...

I think the main difference between the two is that Ball always gave his all for St Kilda, at first did not want to leave, but eventually saw the writing on the wall. Whereas many feel that Jack just wasn't prepared to put in the hard work to elevate his game to our standard.