Society/Culture Is antisemitism on the rise?

[Engimal v3]

I'm a little uncomfortable with allegations of 'Israel manipulate the Media'.

That's the identical argument put forward by Neo Nazis (the Jews/ 'Hollywood elites' control the media).

It's not true, and its straying into antisemitic tropes.

Israel =/= Jews.

Israel does try to manipulate the media, as do every state - including ours. It'd be wilfully ignorant to think otherwise.

 

[Malifice]

With respect Mal, where there is smoke there IS fire. The following is a long-ish piece, but informative.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/hasbara-a-long-running-strategy/

That article simply states that Israel employ disinformation techniques (no different to the Russians, or anyone else). Which is readily accepted by pretty much everyone. The State lies, spreads fake news, cover up stuff and more.

It's one thing to say 'The State of Israel spread misinformation and disinformation to cover up war crimes'.

It's another thing to say 'The Jews control the media'.

Nothing in your article expressly conveys or even infers the latter. The article simply states the obvious (official Israeli sources and many online articles disseminated by Israel are unreliable, partisan, and deliberately biased).

 

[Malifice]

Israel =/= Jews.

Israel does try to manipulate the media, as do every state - including ours. It'd be wilfully ignorant to think otherwise.

See my post above.

Zero arguments from me that the State of Israel disseminate fake news and propaganda. They self evidently do (and they're hardly alone in so doing).

Making an argument that 'Global media outlets are controlled by the Jews/ Jewish interests' is a bridge to far.

Unless you're Kanye West.

 

[Malifice]

Zionists need some protocols.

Dont do this.

 

[faible]

I'm a little uncomfortable with allegations of 'Israel manipulate the Media'.

?

That article simply states that Israel employ disinformation techniques

It's one thing to say 'The State of Israel spread misinformation and disinformation to cover up war crimes'.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

That article simply states that Israel employ disinformation techniques (no different to the Russians, or anyone else). Which is readily accepted by pretty much everyone. The State lies, spreads fake news, cover up stuff and more.

It's one thing to say 'The State of Israel spread misinformation and disinformation to cover up war crimes'.

It's another thing to say 'The Jews control the media'.

Nothing in your article expressly conveys or even infers the latter. The article simply states the obvious (official Israeli sources and many online articles disseminated by Israel are unreliable, partisan, and deliberately biased).

Hasbara is aggressive public relations. In fairness Palestinians have their own PR too. Media ownership WILL reflect bias. Public relations, however aggressive it may be, IS a thing. To say there is no Jewish media ownership is a nonsense every bit as much as it is to say Jews run all the media.

I can and will 'both sides' this but to say there is NO pro-Israeli shaping of the narrative by Jewish interests is a misnomer at best.

There's smoke. There's fire.

 

[Jazny]

I assume in the ~ 60 seconds between you posting that post and this post, in which time he mashed the disagree button, he read and considered the entire article you posted before deciding 'thumbs down' was the appropriate response.

"Where there's smoke there's fire" is implying that Israel does control the media similar to how antisemites often claim Jews control the media. The article he linked had nothing of substance in it to back up the claim he tried to make.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

"Where there's smoke there's fire" is implying that Israel does control the media similar to how antisemites often claim Jews control the media. The article he linked had nothing of substance in it to back up the claim he tried to make.

Let me quote myself replying to Malifice

Hasbara is aggressive public relations. In fairness Palestinians have their own PR too. Media ownership WILL reflect bias. Public relations, however aggressive it may be, IS a thing. To say there is no Jewish media ownership is a nonsense every bit as much as it is to say Jews run all the media.

I can and will 'both sides' this but to say there is NO pro-Israeli shaping of the narrative by Jewish interests is a misnomer at best.

There's smoke. There's fire.

 

[Jazny]

Hasbara is aggressive public relations. In fairness Palestinians have their own PR too. Media ownership WILL reflect bias. Public relations, however aggressive it may be, IS a thing. To say there is no Jewish media ownership is a nonsense every bit as much as it is to say Jews run all the media.

I can and will 'both sides' this but to say there is NO pro-Israeli shaping of the narrative by Jewish interests is a misnomer at best.

There's smoke. There's fire.

How do you go from the fact that there are some Jews who own some media companies to those journalists who work in those companies produce uncritical pro-Israel news? Are all Jews who own media companies pro-Israel? If so, is it a directive they make to their journalists to produce pro-Israel content? Or is a directive that they only hire extremely biased journalists? How does this work exactly?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

How do you go from the fact that there are some Jews who own some media companies to those journalists who work in those companies produce uncritical pro-Israel news? Are all Jews who own media companies pro-Israel? If so, is it a directive they make to their journalists to produce pro-Israel content? Or is a directive that they only hire extremely biased journalists? How does this work exactly?

Naturally, not all Jews are pro-Israel. But those that are, that have that bias, they'll seek to employ like-minded people. Same goes for Murdoch mastheads and news outfits like Fox News or Sky. Likewise the other way for mastheads like The Guardian. Al Jazeera.

Understanding ownership leads to understanding bias, and that's the point I'm driving at.

Bias exists everywhere. It is up to we the public to sort through the lies, the truths and the half-truths. All I ask is that we all remain grounded in reality and that media ownership is transparent.

'This' is the news. Where's it coming from?

 

[faible]

Naturally, not all Jews are pro-Israel. But those that are, that have that bias, they'll seek to employ like-minded people. Same goes for Murdoch mastheads and news outfits like Fox News or Sky. Likewise the other way for mastheads like The Guardian. Al Jazeera.

Understanding ownership leads to understanding bias, and that's the point I'm driving at.

Bias exists everywhere. It is up to we the public to sort through the lies, the truths and the half-truths. All I ask is that we all remain grounded in reality and that media ownership is transparent.

'This' is the news. Where's it coming from?

From memory there was a good article about the way language was used to report things relating to Israel and Palestine, and how they differed. I had a quick google and can't dig it up.

There's also been many accusations over the years of journalists at Murdoch owned outlets having a fairly clear understanding of what is expected to be reported and how, without it necessarily being spelled out. Pretty sure there's a whole 'thing' about The Australian reporting something today being what the other Murdoch owned publications will report on tomorrow. When you've got long-standing editors that just 'know' what positions Murdoch wanted reported on, he didn't have to sit there personally dictating things, it just happened.

 

[faible]

Also there's this about CBC which shows how it can work in practice

CBC has whitewashed Israelâs crimes in Gaza. I saw it firsthand ⋆ The Breach

Working for five years as a producer at the public broadcaster, I witnessed the double standards and discrimination in its coverage of Palestineâand experienced directly how CBC disciplines those who speak out

breachmedia.ca

 

[Jazny]

Naturally, not all Jews are pro-Israel. But those that are, that have that bias, they'll seek to employ like-minded people. Same goes for Murdoch mastheads and news outfits like Fox News or Sky. Likewise the other way for mastheads like The Guardian. Al Jazeera.

Understanding ownership leads to understanding bias, and that's the point I'm driving at.

Bias exists everywhere. It is up to we the public to sort through the lies, the truths and the half-truths. All I ask is that we all remain grounded in reality and that media ownership is transparent.

'This' is the news. Where's it coming from?

But now you are going from the position supporting the idea that Israel controls the media, to now in this post just saying various media outlets have bias. I think everyone will agree with most of what you wrote in this post. But that is very different to Israel is controlling the media.

The bias is pretty subtle too in most reputable news sources. They don't just uncritically report everything that comes out of Israel without qualifying it. They don't tend to produce outright disinformation either, usually they are pretty grounded in truth.

 

[Malifice]

I can and will 'both sides' this but to say there is NO pro-Israeli shaping of the narrative by Jewish interests is a misnomer at best.

How do these 'Jewish interests' shape the narrative? Are they paying money to Media moguls to print positive spin for them in the big papers?

Rupert Murdoch seemed to have a very different opinion to you on this, and say what you like about the bloke, he likely knows more about who influences and owns Media companies than anyone else on the planet:

Rupert Murdoch's unchaperoned tweeting was bound to get him into trouble. On Saturday, he slipped into an antisemitic usage: "Why is Jewish-owned press so consistently anti-Israel in every crisis?"

What Murdoch was doing was trying to channel the right wing's ardent support of Israel by challenging the left wing's more critical view of Israeli brinksmanship – particularly as Israel appears on the verge of another invasion of Gaza. In other words, or so Murdoch seemed to be close to saying, Jews are liberals, and so untrustworthy that they would even betray Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/19/rupert-murdoch-jews-twitter

 

[Gralin]

See my post above.

Zero arguments from me that the State of Israel disseminate fake news and propaganda. They self evidently do (and they're hardly alone in so doing).

Making an argument that 'Global media outlets are controlled by the Jews/ Jewish interests' is a bridge to far.

Unless you're Kanye West.

Who was making that argument in this thread over the last two pages?

 

[faible]

From

CBC has whitewashed Israelâs crimes in Gaza. I saw it firsthand ⋆ The Breach

Working for five years as a producer at the public broadcaster, I witnessed the double standards and discrimination in its coverage of Palestineâand experienced directly how CBC disciplines those who speak out

breachmedia.ca

This is a good quote about how it works:

As Arendt theorized, those who go along with genocides aren’t innately evil; they’re often just boring careerists.

To be sure, while there are a number of senior CBC journalists who are clearly committed to defending Israel no matter its actions, many journalists just follow the path of least resistance. The fact that permanent, full-time CBC jobs are in such short supply, combined with threats of looming cuts, only reinforces this problem.

 

[Malifice]

Who was making that argument in this thread over the last two pages?

Geelong_Sicko was inferring that Media companies publish pro Israeli stories and push a pro Israeli agenda, due to pro Israeli influence (presumably by Zionist Jewish people and groups) being exerted on the owners of those companies.

Which is a longwinded way of saying 'The Jews control the media'.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...says-jews-control-the-media-is-that-true.html

CNN anchor Rick Sanchez was fired last week for calling The Daily Show host Jon Stewart a bigot and implying that Jews control the media. (“Everybody who runs CNN is a lot like Stewart, and a lot of people who run all the other networks are a lot like Stewart,” he said, trying to explain that Jews are not an oppressed minority.) Setting aside the propriety of Sanchez’s claims, is he right? Do Jews control the media?

Maybe the movies, but not the news. If Sanchez was referring to people in the television news business, he’s wrong. Not one of the major television news operations—Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, ABC News, CBS News, or NBC News—is currently headed by a Jewish executive. (That includes Ken Jautz, the man who fired Sanchez.) Or at least none of these executives has talked about being Jewish in a public forum. The Internet is littered with rumors about various media moguls being Jewish, but few of those claims are backed by any evidence.

It's simply not true.

 

[faible]

due to pro Israeli influence (presumably by Zionist Jewish people and groups) being exerted

I think this is a case of you reading something in to it that's not there.

CBC has whitewashed Israelâs crimes in Gaza. I saw it firsthand ⋆ The Breach

Working for five years as a producer at the public broadcaster, I witnessed the double standards and discrimination in its coverage of Palestineâand experienced directly how CBC disciplines those who speak out

breachmedia.ca

What I had actually said, verbatim, was this:

“I just want to address the elephant in the room. The reason why we’re scared to allow Palestinian guests on to use the word ‘genocide’ is because there’s a very, very well funded [sic], there’s lots of Israel lobbies, and every time we do this sort of interview, they will complain, and it’s a headache. That’s why we’re not doing it. But that’s not a good reason not to have these conversations.”

I stand by my statement. HonestReporting Canada is billionaire-funded. In December 2023, HonestReporting bragged about having “mobilized Canadians to send 50,000 letters to news outlets.” The group has also published a litany of attacks on journalists at CBC and other publications who’ve done accurate reporting on Palestine, and created email templates to make it easier for their followers to complain to publications about specific reporters.

This sounds very similar to what happened to the ABC:

Secret WhatsApp messages show co-ordinated campaign to oust Antoinette Lattouf from ABC

The messages also reveal a member of the group Lawyers for Israel calling Lattouf’s lawyer Josh Bornstein, who is Jewish, a “traiter”.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Malifice]

Ah now, but further down in that same 2012 article;"I think that Murdoch, a man not so much paranoid as he is realistic about his enemies, is parsing what he sees as "'good Jews" from "bad Jews". Jews are just another subset of the people who are for him or against him, who he either has to manage or isolate. Along with his open dislike of Muslims – once, he explained to me his theory about how Muslims often married close cousins, therefore depressing their general IQ – and his geopolitical views about world domination, supporting Israel, I believe, is a way to win the support of what he perceives as the good Jews. (That is, if you support him, you are a good Jew.)There are the Jews in his tent pissing out, and there are the Jews who think they are better than him pissing in. (This is hardly the only way he parses his enemies: he does this in much more labyrinthine fashion when it comes to the Brits.) The New York Times represents the highest example of the Jews who believe they are better than him.

I'm not arguing that Murdoch does not push a pro Israel stance with reporting on his network. Blind Freddie can see that he does.

Conservatives tend to ally with Israel. Liberals tend to be much more critical.

Murdoch simply knows his audience.

 

[Gralin]

Geelong_Sicko was inferring that Media companies publish pro Israeli stories and push a pro Israeli agenda, due to pro Israeli influence (presumably by Zionist Jewish people and groups) being exerted on the owners of those companies.

Which is a longwinded way of saying 'The Jews control the media'.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...says-jews-control-the-media-is-that-true.html



It's simply not true.

you posted this before that

I'm a little uncomfortable with allegations of 'Israel manipulate the Media'.

That's the identical argument put forward by Neo Nazis (the Jews/ 'Hollywood elites' control the media).

It's not true, and its straying into antisemitic tropes.

to which I asked

You don't think politicians and governments manipulate the media?

Or you are uncomfortable with calling out Israel because of Nazi tropes?

 

[Malifice]

you dont think politicians and governments manipulate the media?

Not to the extent you're alleging.

Israel have as much sway over what Murdoch's papers write as do the Russians (who also disseminate a ton of misinformation).

While Murdoch might very well amplify some pro Russian arguments, he's not doing it because Putin is paying him to do it, or because Putin controls Fox News. He's doing it because he knows his audience.

Ditto stories about Israel.

My other point is that 'Jews control the media' is an antisemitic trope, commonly pushed by conspiracists and Neo Nazi types (and Kanye West).

It's not true. Heck plenty of conservative Jewish Americans argue that the US Media and Press are unfair to Israel.

 

[faible]

My other point is that 'Jews control the media' is an antisemitic trope, commonly pushed by conspiracists and Neo Nazi types (and Kanye West).

Therein lies the rub though. Israel are doing horrendous things, and have favourable media reporting.

They hide behind the neo nazi tropes and antisemitism when people (rightly) criticise them for the above.

 

[Gralin]

Not to the extent you're alleging.

Israel have as much sway over what Murdoch's papers write as do the Russians (who also disseminate a ton of misinformation).

While Murdoch might very well amplify some pro Russian arguments, he's not doing it because Putin is paying him to do it, or because Putin controls Fox News. He's doing it because he knows his audience.

Ditto stories about Israel.

My other point is that 'Jews control the media' is an antisemitic trope, commonly pushed by conspiracists and Neo Nazi types (and Kanye West).

It's not true. Heck plenty of conservative Jewish Americans argue that the US Media and Press are unfair to Israel.

Yeah you keep going back to Jews control the media but I don't recall saying or suggesting they do.

I don't recall limiting my commentary to how the media reports on Israel either

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Geelong_Sicko was inferring that Media companies publish pro Israeli stories and push a pro Israeli agenda, due to pro Israeli influence (presumably by Zionist Jewish people and groups) being exerted on the owners of those companies.

Which is a longwinded way of saying 'The Jews control the media'.

I said there was some bias. I in no way stated, or even inferred, that there was total Jewish control of the media. You're reading me wrong here, Mal. An easy thing to do in such a polarising argument, so no biggie I guess.

What I speak out against is the notion that there is no pro-Israeli attempt at manipulation of the media and the mind, no Hasbara, because there most certainly is.

Know the ownership. Know the bias. Transparency is what I argue for, not an end to bias because that is an impossibility. Transparency is achievable. So is accountability.

 

[FireKrakouer]

What does peace look like in an occupation?
How can you have peace?

Ladies and gentlemen, here is indisputable evidence of horseshoe theory.