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Is Nadal Cooked?

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Demosthenes

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Jun 9, 2015
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Got to say, I'm a bit shocked to see Nadal lose tonight. Not only was he error-prone, but he displayed genuine mental fragility on some key points - which is something I'd never have expected from him.

If he's losing to an old Federer on 'blue clay', I really wonder if he has the stuff to compete with the big boys any more.
 
Demosthenes said:
Got to say, I'm a bit shocked to see Nadal lose tonight. Not only was he error-prone, but he displayed genuine mental fragility on some key points - which is something I'd never have expected from him.

If he's losing to an old Federer on 'blue clay', I really wonder if he has the stuff to compete with the big boys any more.
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He averaged 5 unforced errors a set for the first 4 (not sure of the figure in the last). Hardly a disaster.

Tonight showed nothing that we didn't know about Nadal - he forces you to hit big shots to beat him. Federer had to take incredible risks especially on the backhand and to his credit he nailed a lot of massive winners.

Federer's age is irrelevant. The one thing he has done better than any of the other modern greats is that he almost ALWAYS beats the players he should beat. Almost invariably through even the latter stages of his career, it has taken one of the heavyweights to beat him. So it's not as though he's been shithouse for half a decade, age irrespective.

He lost some big points - he also repeatedly saved multiple break points, and did so without the luxury of having a great first serve like Federer does.

Maybe Nadal is cooked - who knows - but I find it mind melting that his performance in a 5 setter at a grand slam final against a legend of the sport is what prompted you to ask it.
 
Demosthenes said:
Got to say, I'm a bit shocked to see Nadal lose tonight. Not only was he error-prone, but he displayed genuine mental fragility on some key points - which is something I'd never have expected from him.

If he's losing to an old Federer on 'blue clay', I really wonder if he has the stuff to compete with the big boys any more.
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Apparently guys in their 30s have all the advantages so Nadal should be right in the sweet spot.
 
He didn't make a ton of errors but his forehand broke down at key moments, which is very unusual. His winner count was very low as well. He has always been way, way more than a retriever but he didn't really show it much in this match.

I wonder if he really has the weapons to compete any more, is all.
 

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What a weird thread. Nadal hasn't looked this strong since 2014, I mean the man just made a Grand Slam final beating some good players along the way in some amazing 5 setters.

He still has the stamina, the talent and the desire to challenge for another Grand Slam especially the French Open.

Whats even more amazing is that the courts at the AO have never been faster which should work agienst Nadal, yet he thrived on it.
 
Bit reactionary.. Federer's tennis was simply sublime all tournament. He improved his backhand significantly. Hats off to Federer, who simply turned the game around and won 9 straight points. Can't get any better then that. Nadal looks fit and can beat the best, his body looks right. His mental toughness is still there and he's hurting right now, knowing he could've had the championship.
 
Demosthenes said:
He didn't make a ton of errors but his forehand broke down at key moments, which is very unusual. His winner count was very low as well. He has always been way, way more than a retriever but he didn't really show it much in this match.

I wonder if he really has the weapons to compete any more, is all.
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Nah. Guys in their 30s have all the advantages. Because the game has changed.
 
Not even, tonight showed that Nadal is back and should have more grand slams in him in the future. The graphic they showed at the start of the match- this court was playing quicker and bouncing lower than wimbledon FFS. Must've been quick as feck. Nadal should be favourite for RG and on the form he showed this tourney I'd back him over anyone in the world.
 
Sweet Jesus said:
Reactionary doesn't mean "overreacting".

You know that, right?
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Yeah I do.. Hence why I said reactionary. Think need a few days to take in the fact that Nadal played a great tournament against some of the best upcoming and improvers but Federer's tennis was alike his early years with the 6 month lay off helping him more then anything. But the break also did wonders for Nadal too. There's still more chapters to be written. Nadal is only 30, finally looks like his body is right and he will go all out on clay, given he came so close on a fast blue court tonight. His mental toughness and ability to take on anyone, let alone Federer won't put him off this season.
 
FreoRicci said:
Yeah I do.. Hence why I said reactionary. Think need a few days to take in the fact that Nadal played a great tournament against some of the best upcoming and improvers but Federer's tennis was alike his early years with the 6 month lay off helping him more then anything. But the break also did wonders for Nadal too. There's still more chapters to be written. Nadal is only 30, finally looks like his body is right and he will go all out on clay, given he came so close on a fast blue court tonight. His mental toughness and ability to take on anyone, let alone Federer won't put him off this season.
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Yeah, that's not what "reactionary" means.
 

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Ridiculous thread. Only thing that can stop Nadal the next few years is his body. Still incredibly tough at the French and if this tournament is anything to go off, you're going to have to play brilliant tennis to beat him.

Federer simply made his shots when it mattered and serving was a strength for him, whereas Nadal put himself under way too much pressure in the last set with average serving. Haven't seen Roger play like that in a grand slam final for years. Last few finals I've seen Federer play he threw away far too many points carelessly and his serving was real average. The finals against Novak basically looked like an old man hanging on for dear life. Clearly the break did him some good and he came into this tournament refreshed.

Nadal is 30 and with the current climate of men's tennis I think it's pretty ridiculous to be writing a guy like Rafa off. Novak certainly isn't at his best right now (that will probably change though) and the likes of Murray, Wawrinka, Raonic etc are all decent players, but certainly opponents that a healthy Nadal can knock off. Same goes with Federer.
 
I agree with some of your points but I think it's pretty clear that the courts were a lot quicker than as described by your "blue clay" nickname, which goes some way to explaining the result. I would also argue that when Nadal played aggressively he was the better player almost without fail, but kept sinking into default passive mode.

Rafa just needs some confidence I think. If he can stay fit - if being the key word - I think he still has the game. Whether he has the mental strength to do it anymore is something we don't know yet.
 
Nadal made the final on supposedly the fastest courts since the Australian Open installed Plexicushion in 2008.

He beat the player most likely to challenge the 'Big 4' in the quarter-finals.

He played five top sets 48 hours after defeating a younger opponent in another five-setter.

He played one of the points of the tournament to take the break and go up 4-1 in the fourth set, and staved off multiple break points in each of his first two service games of the fifth set.

He made just three double faults and 28 unforced errors across 44 games.

And his opponent last night was Roger Federer. Who had 24 hours more recovery heading in to the match.

Look, I don't know enough about tennis or Nadal to say whether or not he's cooked - but this is about the worst time to make a call like that. That was one of the most anticipated matches in tennis history (the most anticipated, according to Brad Gilbert) and he performed to an extraordinarily high standard.

Awful call.
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
I agree with some of your points but I think it's pretty clear that the courts were a lot quicker than as described by your "blue clay" nickname, which goes some way to explaining the result. I would also argue that when Nadal played aggressively he was the better player almost without fail, but kept sinking into default passive mode.

Rafa just needs some confidence I think. If he can stay fit - if being the key word - I think he still has the game. Whether he has the mental strength to do it anymore is something we don't know yet.
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It would be a reasonable assumption to make that he was mentally a bit off last night after giving up a 5th set lead and as you rightly point out, being a bit passive.

However even as a die hard fan I thought for much of the match bar the 4th set, he looked about 20 per cent off his best.

For him to overcome that, overcome an opponent in vintage form, a serve that just refused to work for him, and STILL find a way to twice come back from a set down and to lead in the deciding set was about the best endorsement you could get for his mental fortitude.
 

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PhatBoy said:
It would be a reasonable assumption to make that he was mentally a bit off last night after giving up a 5th set lead and as you rightly point out, being a bit passive.

However even as a die hard fan I thought for much of the match bar the 4th set, he looked about 20 per cent off his best.

For him to overcome that, overcome an opponent in vintage form, a serve that just refused to work for him, and STILL find a way to twice come back from a set down and to lead in the deciding set was about the best endorsement you could get for his mental fortitude.
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I can see where you're coming from, but I also think there were numerous times last night where, mentally, he displayed some signs of weakness. You say Federer was in vintage form but I only partially agree: Roger played vintage tennis in spurts. In between these purple patches he played some truly ordinary tennis. For most of the night he hovered around a negative UE to winner ratio but after getting broken in the fifth he was suddenly dialled in again. Nadal's response was to ride it out, as he did every time Federer got hot. Vintage, confident Rafa doesn't do that. Vintage, confident Nadal doesn't just wait it out - he takes the game to the opponent and forces them to play defence. Particularly on a quicker surface.

Nadal only really went on the offensive when he had break points against him and in the last game of the match. By then, Federer was in full servebot mode and had a hell of a lot of momentum. It's hard enough to break Federer, let alone a confident Federer who can see the finish line.

So I agree that Federer played some great tennis and Nadal did well to respond to lost sets early in the match, but in the fifth set in particular he had numerous opportunities to halt Roger's momentum yet failed to do so by being tactically reserved. If we're talking about winning more slams and getting back to his previous level, he has to more clearly read the game under pressure. What made Rafa great in the past was his tenacity and his incredible ability as a front-runner (note: not using this phrase negatively, as has become the norm in AFL in particular) and he lacked in those areas last night. That's mental imo.
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
I can see where you're coming from, but I also think there were numerous times last night where, mentally, he displayed some signs of weakness. You say Federer was in vintage form but I only partially agree: Roger played vintage tennis in spurts. In between these purple patches he played some truly ordinary tennis. For most of the night he hovered around a negative UE to winner ratio but after getting broken in the fifth he was suddenly dialled in again. Nadal's response was to ride it out, as he did every time Federer got hot. Vintage, confident Rafa doesn't do that. Vintage, confident Nadal doesn't just wait it out - he takes the game to the opponent and forces them to play defence. Particularly on a quicker surface.

Nadal only really went on the offensive when he had break points against him and in the last game of the match. By then, Federer was in full servebot mode and had a hell of a lot of momentum. It's hard enough to break Federer, let alone a confident Federer who can see the finish line.

So I agree that Federer played some great tennis and Nadal did well to respond to lost sets early in the match, but in the fifth set in particular he had numerous opportunities to halt Roger's momentum yet failed to do so by being tactically reserved. If we're talking about winning more slams and getting back to his previous level, he has to more clearly read the game under pressure. What made Rafa great in the past was his tenacity and his incredible ability as a front-runner (note: not using this phrase negatively, as has become the norm in AFL in particular) and he lacked in those areas last night. That's mental imo.
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All fair points
 
Federer worked out how to beat him. Stand closer to the base line and take the ball earlier. Took him years to work out a strategy but the best player of all time should be able to do it a few more times now. He's hasn't dropped off one bit. His rivalry with Nadal would be closer if he chose these tactics 5 years ago.
 
Madtiger2006 said:
Federer worked out how to beat him. Stand closer to the base line and take the ball earlier. Took him years to work out a strategy but the best player of all time should be able to do it a few more times now. He's hasn't dropped off one bit. His rivalry with Nadal would be closer if he chose these tactics 5 years ago.
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Perhaps.

You say that though, as if he clobbered him last night.

Nadal wasn't near his best - even compared to his own modest standards his serve was well down - and still probably should have won.
 
BobbyMorri said:
Nadal made a final on a fast hardcourt and he is cooked.

yeah, no.... The king of Clay will return in May. (injures withstanding)
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The truth is he hasn't been the KoC for nearly 3 or 4 seasons now, that's been Novak.

It's just that Novak has only won one FO in that time due to some things you rarely see i.e. Djokovic touching the net when he had Nadal beaten, and coming up against a stanimal who played a perfect match.

In saying that Djokovic's mind does not appear completely focused presently. Should be a fascinating clay court season with Rafa clearly back.

Interesting stat is IF Djokovic can win the FO he will be the only one of the big 4 to win all 4 majors twice. Same could be said of Fed.
 

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Is Nadal Cooked?

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