Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

[Carn The Berries]

The forgotten people - the hostages. When will they be returned, if they're still alive?

You're right, they are forgotten. Netanyahu made it pretty clear early on that he doesn't give a flying f* whether the hostages are rescued or not. He's more interested in levelling Gaza than actually finding them.

 

[FIGJAM]

I'd argue that the intent of the Israeli's were known from early on by the massive amount of Palestinian refugees was clear and evident evidence of ethnic cleansing early on

If that is the case then you could argue the same for the escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian war in early 2021 given the amount of Ukrainian refugees, yet nobody seems to suggest ethnic cleansing on that front.

Not getting caught in the crossfire is different from being intentionally driven out of a region based on ethnicity.

 

[FIGJAM]

Israel are systemically targeting Palestinian civilian health, educational and religious infrastructure in a bid to make Gaza uninhabitable. This didn’t happen in Ukraine.

There are many differences between what is happening in Gaza and the Ukraine war but I think the most blatant is the inability or unwillingness of the IDF to separate civilian and military targets. Israel leadership have told us time and time again, that they considers all Palestinians to be combatants.

Schools

“Tanks on the Playground”

The 71-page report, “Tanks on the Playground,” documents the damage and destruction of schools and kindergartens in four Ukrainian regions during the first months of the fighting. Most of the damage to educational facilities resulted from aerial attacks, artillery shelling, rocket strikes, and...

www.hrw.org

Hospitals

Russian strikes on hospitals during the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Infrastructure

Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jello_B]

How do we know these half naked men are terrorists ...? because IDF are telling you they are?
I guess the hundreds dead in the West Bank where there's no HAMAS including mostly children are terrorists too right?


IDF are posting videos about reoccuping Gaza and taking back their ancient beaches whilst soldiers are proposing to each other, having parties and echoing genocidal language. What the * else does this mean? This has been their goal forever you tone deaf idiot lol


View attachment 1869567

You will get used to dogs. Wait until he unveils his number one hit “why doesn’t terrorist organisation release the hostages” (without giving a thought to the fact they “literally are” upon Israel releasing Palestinian “prisoners”, and besides the fact they are a terrorist organisation).

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Schools

“Tanks on the Playground”

The 71-page report, “Tanks on the Playground,” documents the damage and destruction of schools and kindergartens in four Ukrainian regions during the first months of the fighting. Most of the damage to educational facilities resulted from aerial attacks, artillery shelling, rocket strikes, and...

www.hrw.org

Hospitals

Russian strikes on hospitals during the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Infrastructure

Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So you are saying Israel is worse than Russia?

Thats plausible. They have certainly killed more civilians in the initial 2 months, compared to Russia.

 

[faible]

If that is the case then you could argue the same for the escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian war in early 2021 given the amount of Ukrainian refugees, yet nobody seems to suggest ethnic cleansing on that front.

Not getting caught in the crossfire is different from being intentionally driven out of a region based on ethnicity.

When the most favourable comparison that can be made is that Israel might be behaving in a way not dissimilar to Russia invading Ukraine I don't think it really makes the point you're hoping it would.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Death toll has reached 18,000 Palestinians since October 7th.

Uber-Zionists on here barracking hard must be happy with that milestone - still not enough to atone for 1,400 Israelis, because "there's no equivalence".

Meanwhile anyone anywhere on the planet suggesting ceasefire continues to be labelled anti-Semitic, because apparently the state of Israel and all people of Jewish faith are one and the same.

You're a bunch of barbarians.

There are two wars going on in Gaza right now — the one Israelis are watching, and the one the rest of the world sees

Each evening, Israelis are sitting down to watch their prime-time television news to see what's happening in the war. And each evening, the pattern is much the same, writes John Lyons.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Saint]

I don’t disagree that Russias invasion of Ukraine has been awful, inhumane and with a litany of war crimes committed. In certain regions in particular it is horrendous and claims of ethnic cleansing there may well be supported by international law.

However it is not on the same scale as Gaza where 80% of the entire population have been displaced. 25 out of 26 hospitals in Gaza have been disabled or destroyed. I feel this is only going to get worse with UNICEF and other bodies warning of impending mass starvation and disease.

Had Russia taken Kiev and Zelensky retreated, Russia would probably have done what Israel are now doing to Gaza. Destroyed resistance through brutal oppression and destruction of anything remotely Ukrainian in history and culture.

 

[Roby]

Not genocide



Not genoicde



Not genocide



Not genocide



Not genocide

1% of Gaza population killed in two months
3% of Gaza population either killed or injured in two months

It's not genocide?

 

[FIGJAM]

When the most favourable comparison that can be made is that Israel might be behaving in a way not dissimilar to Russia invading Ukraine I don't think it really makes the point you're hoping it would.

I'm not comparing Israel's reaction to October 7 to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but rather addressing your weak argument that a "massive amount of Palestinian refugees was clear and evident evidence of ethnic cleansing early on".

How do you leap from displacement resultant from military interaction to ethnic cleansing so quickly?

 

[Jello_B]

Had Russia taken Kiev and Zelensky retreated, Russia would probably have done what Israel are now doing to Gaza. Destroyed resistance through brutal oppression and destruction of anything remotely Ukrainian in history and culture.

Doubt it. Russians and Ukrainians share a connected history and there is a lot of cultural crossover. Many families exist across both countries. Sure - Russia may have looked to slaughter the resistance, but I’d expect you’d see a lot less “collateral damage than in Gaza.
Israel and Hamas hate each other. Both parties would be happy if the other didn’t exist, and are happy to facilitate the process.

 

[Jello_B]

I'm not comparing Israel's reaction to October 7 to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but rather addressing your weak argument that a "massive amount of Palestinian refugees was clear and evident evidence of ethnic cleansing early on".

How do you leap from displacement resultant from military interaction to ethnic cleansing so quickly?

So quickly? Turn on your internet connection?

 

[faible]

How do you leap from displacement resultant from military interaction to ethnic cleansing so quickly?

So easy to use terms to twist things.

'military interaction'

'collateral damage'.

If you can't see what's right in front of you after two months of it, I don't know what you want from people here?

 

[FIGJAM]

So easy to use terms to twist things.

'military interaction'

'collateral damage'.

If you can't see what's right in front of you after two months of it, I don't know what you want from people here?

You using the terms genocide and ethnic cleansing are the one twisting things.

Do you or do you not agree with this; if Hamas relinquished power today and released the hostages, Israel would cease the current conflict?

 

[Maggie5]

How do you leap from displacement resultant from military interaction to ethnic cleansing so quickly?

Do you know what displacement means? It is pretty close to ethnic cleansing if there is no home to go back to.
Main difference is that they are still alive but still possibly physically and mentally scarred.

I would only add the word Forced in the following sentence.

The displacement of human populations refers to the relocation of large numbers of people (forced) from their homes.

Ethnic Cleansing

the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another.

 

[Saint]

You using the terms genocide and ethnic cleansing are the one twisting things.

Do you or do you not agree with this; if Hamas relinquished power today and released the hostages, Israel would cease the current conflict?

Israel definitely would not cease if Hamas said they were surrendering. It's not a war. Israel are trying to kill them all, they're not going to let them surrender.

Do you think even if Israel were convinced every member of Hamas was dead, and they have all the hostages back, that they'll let Gaza live in peace and lift the occupation completely? If not, then they're still a violent occupying force and resistance should be expected.

 

[Maggie5]

Death toll has reached 18,000 Palestinians since October 7th.

Uber-Zionists on here barracking hard must be happy with that milestone - still not enough to atone for 1,400 Israelis, because "there's no equivalence".

Meanwhile anyone anywhere on the planet suggesting ceasefire continues to be labelled anti-Semitic, because apparently the state of Israel and all people of Jewish faith are one and the same.

You're a bunch of barbarians.

There are two wars going on in Gaza right now — the one Israelis are watching, and the one the rest of the world sees

Each evening, Israelis are sitting down to watch their prime-time television news to see what's happening in the war. And each evening, the pattern is much the same, writes John Lyons.

www.abc.net.au

Really good read and last paragraphs really says it all.

There's another saying that many Israelis like to use about Gaza – that every so often they need to "mow the grass". When you ask them what this means, they explain that Gaza is like their backyard: every so often they need to tend to their yard, to keep the weeds – Hamas – under control.

In the six years I lived in Jerusalem there were three wars with Gaza – three times they mowed the grass. But this war is different. This is more than mowing grass – this is destroying most of the garden and killing many of the people who live in it.

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

You using the terms genocide and ethnic cleansing are the one twisting things.

Do you or do you not agree with this; if Hamas relinquished power today and released the hostages, Israel would cease the current conflict?

I'm happy to disagree. Setting aside the obvious in that Hamas will not relinquish power, I can't see Netanyahu pulling back in any hurry. He (and his ultra-right-wing govt) are now on a self-proclaimed mission to destroy Hamas. Collateral damage in the 1,000s has not deterred him yet, I'm not convinced that he will be swayed by anything less than full withdrawal of support from the US. He (and his govt) obviously don't care what the UN or any individual other country thinks, and believe themselves above global law, and morality. (I'm addressing this about the Israeli leadership explicitly in relation to the thrust of your question, the morality of Hamas is on a par, as both sides - militarily as combatants - show a complete disregard for life or human suffering.)

The other Arab states have - apart from a muted intervention from Hezbollah and their Iranian backers - been averse to getting involved, in spite of the dead bodies piling up in Gaza. If the 17,500-18,000 so far isn't enough to get them involved (and the levelling of much of Gaza), I'm not sure they want a confrontation with Israel (or the US) that will potentially result in destruction of their own soldiers, equipment, and potentially civilians in retaliatory actions.

So I think, regardless of the fate of the remaining hostages, and as Israel has clearly stated, they are on a mission to occupy Gaza, and destroy Hamas. They've killed, starved and deprived Gazans of virtually every basic human requirement so far - why stop now? (Again I am not making any comparison to Hamas's actions on 7th Oct, or getting into an equivalence argument, just addressing what Israel may/may not do in a changing scenario based on their current actions.) Even a mis-fired missile into the Egyptian border post a week or so ago earned nothing more than an apology and mild rebuke from Israel and Egypt - maybe even the other Arab states don't care about the ultimate fate of Gazans while Hamas remains in control?

And as I write this, more Gazans are being maimed and killed around the clock, for having the temerity to be born Palestinian and under the control of Hamas whether they support them or not. And powerless to change the fact that Hamas are amongst them, and even if they try to flee to 'safe' areas like the south, they are targeted anyway.

Many of us wring our hands at the inhumanity, but unless our govts intervene, we are powerless to stop the slaughter. Leadership at the UN calls for cease-fire, as do some countries - but the US vetoes. And no one really blinks. There's mild consternation globally, but nothing is done to actually STOP civilian deaths mounting at a horrific rate.

Sorry, think I started out answering your question then arrived at a point of desperate helplessness.

 

[Roby]

You using the terms genocide and ethnic cleansing are the one twisting things.

You're wilfully ignoring genocide and human atrocities by Israel and the IDF.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Really good read and last paragraphs really says it all.

There's another saying that many Israelis like to use about Gaza – that every so often they need to "mow the grass". When you ask them what this means, they explain that Gaza is like their backyard: every so often they need to tend to their yard, to keep the weeds – Hamas – under control.

In the six years I lived in Jerusalem there were three wars with Gaza – three times they mowed the grass. But this war is different. This is more than mowing grass – this is destroying most of the garden and killing many of the people who live in it.

The glib barbarity on both sides regarding destruction of human lives is disgusting, depressing and depraved.

Like Glaeken, I think I've reached the point of helplessness - not just personally, but that any diplomacy will ever resolve this, especially as things stand now. I'm not even sure any state players have the appetite to get involved directly due to the implications for their own countries.

I take periodic breaks from this thread (and media reporting) as it is too depressing to contemplate what is actually happening, I.e. the images Lyons says in his articles that he sees but are not shown to the wider world.

 

[FIGJAM]

The answer is plainly no - they would not cease the conflict.

I can't be ****ed going back through everyone's posts, but it's amazing that this seems to be the consensus.

I'm firmly of the view however that they would absolutely have to stop all forms of warfare in that event.

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

The glib barbarity on both sides regarding destruction of human lives is disgusting, depressing and depraved.

Like Glaeken, I think I've reached the point of helplessness - not just personally, but that any diplomacy will ever resolve this, especially as things stand now. I'm not even sure any state players have the appetite to get involved directly due to the implications for their own countries.

I take periodic breaks from this thread (and media reporting) as it is too depressing to contemplate what is actually happening, I.e. the images Lyons says in his articles that he sees but are not shown to the wider world.

I hear you. It is an important discussion to have, but at the same time is mentally draining trying to rationalise - either on this forum or in person with people, while every MSM service has the ongoing conflict in every bulletin. At times I try to imagine what living in that circumstance is like, but it's unfathomable. I'm living relatively comfortably and unscathed in Australia, while people like me are fighting to defend their country in Ukraine, being killed indiscriminately in the ME, starving in Africa, etc, etc.
And the Putins, Xis, Netanyahus, Sinwars and their ilk hide behind their military, secret police, henchmen, etc to inflict death without a care. And the Bidens (Trumps) and other western leaders wash their hands of responsibility as there is no direct involvement.

What a species we are, to inflict barbarity on each other in parallel with the constant technological advances that make life easier for those lucky enough to avoid oppression.

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

I can't be ****ed going back through everyone's posts, but it's amazing that this seems to be the consensus.

I'm firmly of the view however that they would absolutely have to stop all forms of warfare in that event.

YOU posed the question - you could at least give people the courtesy of reading their replies to YOUR question, rather than dismissing them with 2 lines like of useless text. How will you ever expand your knowledge without considering opposing views? Bizarre.

 

[faible]

You using the terms genocide and ethnic cleansing are the one twisting things.

Do you or do you not agree with this; if Hamas relinquished power today and released the hostages, Israel would cease the current conflict?

If Israel would stop doing things that fall under the category of genocide or ethnic cleansing then they might stop being accused of it.

No, I believe they'd find <reasons> to continue unless the US put their foot down because it was becoming untenable to support them. Same as they've found <reasons> to keep committing war crimes and atrocities on Palestinian civilians since October 7.

Even then, the current conflict is really just an escalation of the conflict that has been ongoing for decades anyway, so slowing it down wouldn't really 'cease' the conflict anyway.

Are they going to rebuild Gaza and allow Palestinians to return? Are they going to return the land over in the West Bank they've claimed? Will they stop oppressing the Palestinian people?

 

[geoffjennings79]

For a contemporary example just look at the ongoing Israeli military and settler aggression in the West Bank. Which is under more secular moderate Palestinian leadership.

Good point, but an uncomfortable truth, as that means Israel is not just targeting Hamas.

I'm sure though that Israel evidently not limiting themselves to the attack on Hamas-controlled Gaza will somehow be spun as anti-Semitic. As apparently any criticism of the state of Israel, its govt and military is.