You're right, they are forgotten. Netanyahu made it pretty clear early on that he doesn't give a flying f* whether the hostages are rescued or not. He's more interested in levelling Gaza than actually finding them.
Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack.
- Thread starter Aristotle Pickett
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Status
If that is the case then you could argue the same for the escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian war in early 2021 given the amount of Ukrainian refugees, yet nobody seems to suggest ethnic cleansing on that front.
Not getting caught in the crossfire is different from being intentionally driven out of a region based on ethnicity.
Schools
“Tanks on the Playground”
The 71-page report, “Tanks on the Playground,” documents the damage and destruction of schools and kindergartens in four Ukrainian regions during the first months of the fighting. Most of the damage to educational facilities resulted from aerial attacks, artillery shelling, rocket strikes, and...
Hospitals
Infrastructure
Jello_B
Norm Smith Medallist
- Mar 2, 2014
- 5,614
- 4,655
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
You will get used to dogs. Wait until he unveils his number one hit “why doesn’t terrorist organisation release the hostages” (without giving a thought to the fact they “literally are” upon Israel releasing Palestinian “prisoners”, and besides the fact they are a terrorist organisation).
- Sep 17, 2019
- 22,849
- 35,978
- AFL Club
- Richmond
- Moderator
- #11,430
Schools
“Tanks on the Playground”
The 71-page report, “Tanks on the Playground,” documents the damage and destruction of schools and kindergartens in four Ukrainian regions during the first months of the fighting. Most of the damage to educational facilities resulted from aerial attacks, artillery shelling, rocket strikes, and...www.hrw.org
Hospitals
Infrastructure
So you are saying Israel is worse than Russia?
Thats plausible. They have certainly killed more civilians in the initial 2 months, compared to Russia.
- Apr 23, 2016
- 32,070
- 45,254
- AFL Club
- Essendon
When the most favourable comparison that can be made is that Israel might be behaving in a way not dissimilar to Russia invading Ukraine I don't think it really makes the point you're hoping it would.
- Apr 4, 2006
- 5,141
- 10,074
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
Death toll has reached 18,000 Palestinians since October 7th.
Uber-Zionists on here barracking hard must be happy with that milestone - still not enough to atone for 1,400 Israelis, because "there's no equivalence".
Meanwhile anyone anywhere on the planet suggesting ceasefire continues to be labelled anti-Semitic, because apparently the state of Israel and all people of Jewish faith are one and the same.
You're a bunch of barbarians.
www.abc.net.au
Uber-Zionists on here barracking hard must be happy with that milestone - still not enough to atone for 1,400 Israelis, because "there's no equivalence".
Meanwhile anyone anywhere on the planet suggesting ceasefire continues to be labelled anti-Semitic, because apparently the state of Israel and all people of Jewish faith are one and the same.
You're a bunch of barbarians.
There are two wars going on in Gaza right now — the one Israelis are watching, and the one the rest of the world sees
Each evening, Israelis are sitting down to watch their prime-time television news to see what's happening in the war. And each evening, the pattern is much the same, writes John Lyons.
www.abc.net.au
Had Russia taken Kiev and Zelensky retreated, Russia would probably have done what Israel are now doing to Gaza. Destroyed resistance through brutal oppression and destruction of anything remotely Ukrainian in history and culture.
I'm not comparing Israel's reaction to October 7 to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but rather addressing your weak argument that a "massive amount of Palestinian refugees was clear and evident evidence of ethnic cleansing early on".
How do you leap from displacement resultant from military interaction to ethnic cleansing so quickly?
Jello_B
Norm Smith Medallist
- Mar 2, 2014
- 5,614
- 4,655
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
Doubt it. Russians and Ukrainians share a connected history and there is a lot of cultural crossover. Many families exist across both countries. Sure - Russia may have looked to slaughter the resistance, but I’d expect you’d see a lot less “collateral damage than in Gaza.
Israel and Hamas hate each other. Both parties would be happy if the other didn’t exist, and are happy to facilitate the process.
Jello_B
Norm Smith Medallist
- Mar 2, 2014
- 5,614
- 4,655
- AFL Club
- Port Adelaide
So quickly? Turn on your internet connection?
- Apr 23, 2016
- 32,070
- 45,254
- AFL Club
- Essendon
So easy to use terms to twist things.
'military interaction'
'collateral damage'.
If you can't see what's right in front of you after two months of it, I don't know what you want from people here?
You using the terms genocide and ethnic cleansing are the one twisting things.
Do you or do you not agree with this; if Hamas relinquished power today and released the hostages, Israel would cease the current conflict?
Maggie5
Moderator
- Moderator
- #11,440
Do you know what displacement means? It is pretty close to ethnic cleansing if there is no home to go back to.
Main difference is that they are still alive but still possibly physically and mentally scarred.
I would only add the word Forced in the following sentence.
The displacement of human populations refers to the relocation of large numbers of people (forced) from their homes.
Ethnic Cleansing
the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another.
Israel definitely would not cease if Hamas said they were surrendering. It's not a war. Israel are trying to kill them all, they're not going to let them surrender.
Do you think even if Israel were convinced every member of Hamas was dead, and they have all the hostages back, that they'll let Gaza live in peace and lift the occupation completely? If not, then they're still a violent occupying force and resistance should be expected.
Maggie5
Moderator
- Moderator
- #11,442
Really good read and last paragraphs really says it all.Death toll has reached 18,000 Palestinians since October 7th.
Uber-Zionists on here barracking hard must be happy with that milestone - still not enough to atone for 1,400 Israelis, because "there's no equivalence".
Meanwhile anyone anywhere on the planet suggesting ceasefire continues to be labelled anti-Semitic, because apparently the state of Israel and all people of Jewish faith are one and the same.
You're a bunch of barbarians.
There are two wars going on in Gaza right now — the one Israelis are watching, and the one the rest of the world sees
Each evening, Israelis are sitting down to watch their prime-time television news to see what's happening in the war. And each evening, the pattern is much the same, writes John Lyons.
There's another saying that many Israelis like to use about Gaza – that every so often they need to "mow the grass". When you ask them what this means, they explain that Gaza is like their backyard: every so often they need to tend to their yard, to keep the weeds – Hamas – under control.
In the six years I lived in Jerusalem there were three wars with Gaza – three times they mowed the grass. But this war is different. This is more than mowing grass – this is destroying most of the garden and killing many of the people who live in it.
- Dec 3, 2015
- 1,285
- 2,714
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
I'm happy to disagree. Setting aside the obvious in that Hamas will not relinquish power, I can't see Netanyahu pulling back in any hurry. He (and his ultra-right-wing govt) are now on a self-proclaimed mission to destroy Hamas. Collateral damage in the 1,000s has not deterred him yet, I'm not convinced that he will be swayed by anything less than full withdrawal of support from the US. He (and his govt) obviously don't care what the UN or any individual other country thinks, and believe themselves above global law, and morality. (I'm addressing this about the Israeli leadership explicitly in relation to the thrust of your question, the morality of Hamas is on a par, as both sides - militarily as combatants - show a complete disregard for life or human suffering.)
The other Arab states have - apart from a muted intervention from Hezbollah and their Iranian backers - been averse to getting involved, in spite of the dead bodies piling up in Gaza. If the 17,500-18,000 so far isn't enough to get them involved (and the levelling of much of Gaza), I'm not sure they want a confrontation with Israel (or the US) that will potentially result in destruction of their own soldiers, equipment, and potentially civilians in retaliatory actions.
So I think, regardless of the fate of the remaining hostages, and as Israel has clearly stated, they are on a mission to occupy Gaza, and destroy Hamas. They've killed, starved and deprived Gazans of virtually every basic human requirement so far - why stop now? (Again I am not making any comparison to Hamas's actions on 7th Oct, or getting into an equivalence argument, just addressing what Israel may/may not do in a changing scenario based on their current actions.) Even a mis-fired missile into the Egyptian border post a week or so ago earned nothing more than an apology and mild rebuke from Israel and Egypt - maybe even the other Arab states don't care about the ultimate fate of Gazans while Hamas remains in control?
And as I write this, more Gazans are being maimed and killed around the clock, for having the temerity to be born Palestinian and under the control of Hamas whether they support them or not. And powerless to change the fact that Hamas are amongst them, and even if they try to flee to 'safe' areas like the south, they are targeted anyway.
Many of us wring our hands at the inhumanity, but unless our govts intervene, we are powerless to stop the slaughter. Leadership at the UN calls for cease-fire, as do some countries - but the US vetoes. And no one really blinks. There's mild consternation globally, but nothing is done to actually STOP civilian deaths mounting at a horrific rate.
Sorry, think I started out answering your question then arrived at a point of desperate helplessness.
You're wilfully ignoring genocide and human atrocities by Israel and the IDF.
- Apr 4, 2006
- 5,141
- 10,074
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
The glib barbarity on both sides regarding destruction of human lives is disgusting, depressing and depraved.
Like Glaeken, I think I've reached the point of helplessness - not just personally, but that any diplomacy will ever resolve this, especially as things stand now. I'm not even sure any state players have the appetite to get involved directly due to the implications for their own countries.
I take periodic breaks from this thread (and media reporting) as it is too depressing to contemplate what is actually happening, I.e. the images Lyons says in his articles that he sees but are not shown to the wider world.
I can't be ****ed going back through everyone's posts, but it's amazing that this seems to be the consensus.
I'm firmly of the view however that they would absolutely have to stop all forms of warfare in that event.
- Dec 3, 2015
- 1,285
- 2,714
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
I hear you. It is an important discussion to have, but at the same time is mentally draining trying to rationalise - either on this forum or in person with people, while every MSM service has the ongoing conflict in every bulletin. At times I try to imagine what living in that circumstance is like, but it's unfathomable. I'm living relatively comfortably and unscathed in Australia, while people like me are fighting to defend their country in Ukraine, being killed indiscriminately in the ME, starving in Africa, etc, etc.
And the Putins, Xis, Netanyahus, Sinwars and their ilk hide behind their military, secret police, henchmen, etc to inflict death without a care. And the Bidens (Trumps) and other western leaders wash their hands of responsibility as there is no direct involvement.
What a species we are, to inflict barbarity on each other in parallel with the constant technological advances that make life easier for those lucky enough to avoid oppression.
- Dec 3, 2015
- 1,285
- 2,714
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
YOU posed the question - you could at least give people the courtesy of reading their replies to YOUR question, rather than dismissing them with 2 lines like of useless text. How will you ever expand your knowledge without considering opposing views? Bizarre.
- Apr 23, 2016
- 32,070
- 45,254
- AFL Club
- Essendon
If Israel would stop doing things that fall under the category of genocide or ethnic cleansing then they might stop being accused of it.
No, I believe they'd find <reasons> to continue unless the US put their foot down because it was becoming untenable to support them. Same as they've found <reasons> to keep committing war crimes and atrocities on Palestinian civilians since October 7.
Even then, the current conflict is really just an escalation of the conflict that has been ongoing for decades anyway, so slowing it down wouldn't really 'cease' the conflict anyway.
Are they going to rebuild Gaza and allow Palestinians to return? Are they going to return the land over in the West Bank they've claimed? Will they stop oppressing the Palestinian people?
- Apr 4, 2006
- 5,141
- 10,074
- AFL Club
- Western Bulldogs
Good point, but an uncomfortable truth, as that means Israel is not just targeting Hamas.
I'm sure though that Israel evidently not limiting themselves to the attack on Hamas-controlled Gaza will somehow be spun as anti-Semitic. As apparently any criticism of the state of Israel, its govt and military is.
- Status
Similar threads
