Jacques Kallis

[Alpha1]

Actually Tendulkar would have been a handy bowler, can bowl some very good leg spin, off spin and a few slow medium in duckers. But after injury etc he stopped bowling, he did bowl a few leggies in this test against SA and for someone who don't bowl much he put a lot of the current crop of leggies to shame.

What can you say Tendulkar is a genius.

 

[mayhem20202]

Actually Tendulkar would have been a handy bowler, can bowl some very good leg spin, off spin and a few slow medium in duckers. But after injury etc he stopped bowling, he did bowl a few leggies in this test against SA and for someone who don't bowl much he put a lot of the current crop of leggies to shame.

What can you say Tendulkar is a genius.

Averages 50 with the ball. Yeah, I have watched him bowl, float up his little leggies, bowl a wrongun, bowl an off spinner, big deal. I can do that mate. And, I am pretty sure I would be capable of averaging 50 with the ball. Your statement that he is a good bowler does not change the fact that he averages 50 with the ball, and in reality is nothing more than a part timer.

 

[Goldencats]

Kallis is one of the legends of the game, he averages above 40 against every country bar SL, can't believe ppl question his record, he averages 58 in RSA ad 53 away, what more can you ask of the guy? Not to mention the number of wickets he's taken

 

[Alpha1]

I am not saying he is a better bowler than Kallis, like I said if he hadn't got injured etc his bowling average would be much lower than the 50, have you forgotten he helped win the Adelaide test against Australia bowling off spin?

But if Tendulkar plays in any world team then he would be playing as a batsman and not as a all rounder, Kallis is the great modern bowler/batsman if I was picking a side now Tendulkar and Kallis would be the first ones picked.

 

[mayhem20202]

I am not saying he is a better bowler than Kallis, like I said if he hadn't got injured etc his bowling average would be much lower than the 50, have you forgotten he helped win the Adelaide test against Australia bowling off spin?

But if Tendulkar plays in any world team then he would be playing as a batsman and not as a all rounder, Kallis is the great modern bowler/batsman if I was picking a side now Tendulkar and Kallis would be the first ones picked.

Has never taken more than 3 wickets in an innings???? What does that tell you about his bowling ability. He has 44 test wicket, 13 of which came before 2000, the rest after. If this injury restricted his bowling, why has he taken more wickets in the last 10 years than he did in the first 10??

 

[Alpha1]

Anyway the point is moot is it not? I think we all know that Kallis is a better bowler than Tendulkar, have I said any different? Why so defensive? You are preaching to the converted.

 

[mayhem20202]

Anyway the point is moot is it not? I think we all know that Kallis is a better bowler than Tendulkar, have I said any different? Why so defensive? You are preaching to the converted.

I am not being defensive, I am pointing out that the statement that you made is incorrect. This forum appears to have turned into Kallis vs Tendulkar, and if that is the way that people want to go with the discussion, from a selection point of view clearly you would take Kallis, as he could comfortably open the bowling and bat anywhere you wanted him to. In Tendulkar's case, you would just be picking a batsman with similar output to Kallis, who is no use as a bowler.

 

[Alpha1]

Ok I differ with you on selection, I would pick Tendulkar first in any team I pick, but yes Kallis is the greatest allrounder since Imran Khan, in our life time anyway.

 

[breeno]

The best all rounder in the world and possibly the second best of all time would probably be the first one picked from a pure selection point of view; simply because he can bat similar (but only just below) to someone like Tendulkar, Lara or Ponting, and also offers a bowling option capable of taking 200+ wickets @ 30.

 

[Mint Condition]

Kallis is a handy extra bowler to have, but I think some people overrate his bowling a lot. He averages less than 2 wickets per test match. He's a batsmen that's a handy part time bowler, not a genuine all-rounder. He's accumulated a lot of wickets because he's played so many games, and his bowling average is very good considering...but he doesn't take many wickets.

As a batsmen he hasn't quite had the ability of Tendulkar, Lara or Ponting IMO...he probably values his wicket the most out of the four of them, but in terms of being able to take the game and the momentum away from the opposition I'd have the other 3 ahead of him.

That said, if a match ever needs saving, Kallis is the man. Pretty sure he has the highest 2nd innings average out of anyone in recent times.

 

[Ruck Machine]

Kallis is probably the best all rounder of all time.

 

[Mint Condition]

Kallis is probably the best all rounder of all time.

If Sobers, Imran and Miller didn't exist, sure.

 

[Damon_3388]

Kallis is a handy extra bowler to have, but I think some people overrate his bowling a lot. He averages less than 2 wickets per test match. He's a batsmen that's a handy part time bowler, not a genuine all-rounder. He's accumulated a lot of wickets because he's played so many games, and his bowling average is very good considering...but he doesn't take many wickets.

His 67.7 Test strike rate as a bowlers somewhat attests to him being more of an accumulator than an out-and-out strike bowler, but his average of 12.4 overs bowled per innings (from 236 bowling innings, 3.39% came as a new ball bowler, 27.54% as a first change bowler, 42.37% as a second change bowler, 21.19% as a third changer, and 6.36% as a fourth or fifth change bowler, and in 32 other innings where SA bowled he wasn't given the ball) suggest he's used more than a part timer would be (Dale Steyn and Morne Morkel bowl 18.3 and 17.3 overs per innings respectively), and his 31.90 average is better than "Australia's best bowler" Ben Hilfenhaus (strike rate is almost comparable too), and his 2.82 economy rate is exemplary as well.

 

[Mint Condition]

Yes, some decent figures, but still less than 2 wickets per test match played overall. I've seen analysis in the past that doesn't even qualify someone as an allrounder unless they average more than 2 wickets per test. Sobers, who was also a batting allrounder, averaged about 2.5 wickets per test. A specialist bowler should average at least 3, and a very good bowler over 4 (with the very best heading up near 5).

Imran Khan in comparison averaged 22.8 as a bowler, with over 4 wickets per test...and though his overall career batting average was a respectable 37 (for an allrounder), he didn't start his career as a good batsmen. Isolate his batting record as captain, in nearly 50 tests, he averaged 52. Kallis is not in that league as an allrounder.

 

[Parquet Court]

some harsh analysis of kallis here, a selfish cricketer?? i dont get that, he loves to get runs and take wickets?? what an awful trait to have as a cricketer.

Double century vs. india with sharma, sreesnath and singh playing is not a bad effort, just because dhoni is a gash captain and sets those awful fields, probably have to take into account he was batting with devilliers who was smoking them to all parts, pitch wasnt a road either, definitely had some pace and bounce as supersport park tends to.

picking a team from the last 10-15 years kallis would be a shoo-in, though he is not in the same class as sobers. probably the 2nd best batting all rounder ever and there is a massive difference between batting and bowling all rounder.

off subject a little, my team of the last 15 years would be:

Sehwag
Hayden
Punter
Tendulkar
Lara
Kallis
Gilchrist
Warne
Steyn
McGrath
Bond (career cut cruelly short by injury, this lad could play)

Gillespie, Akram (not overly sure about his palying tenure), Donald could easily go into that last spot where bond is..

 

[Slax]

Kallis is a handy extra bowler to have, but I think some people overrate his bowling a lot. He averages less than 2 wickets per test match. He's a batsmen that's a handy part time bowler, not a genuine all-rounder. He's accumulated a lot of wickets because he's played so many games, and his bowling average is very good considering...but he doesn't take many wickets.

As a batsmen he hasn't quite had the ability of Tendulkar, Lara or Ponting IMO...he probably values his wicket the most out of the four of them, but in terms of being able to take the game and the momentum away from the opposition I'd have the other 3 ahead of him.

That said, if a match ever needs saving, Kallis is the man. Pretty sure he has the highest 2nd innings average out of anyone in recent times.

Considering that he has been in a side that has been in the top 2 in the rankings his whole career it's pretty difficult as a 4th or 5th choice bowler to take wickets.

Sure his batting is not a flambouyant as Tendulkar, Lara or Ponting, but you'd still have him in the best 11 of the last 30 years without any hesitation at #6.

 

[Damon_3388]

Yes, some decent figures, but still less than 2 wickets per test match played overall. I've seen analysis in the past that doesn't even qualify someone as an allrounder unless they average more than 2 wickets per test. Sobers, who was also a batting allrounder, averaged about 2.5 wickets per test. A specialist bowler should average at least 3, and a very good bowler over 4 (with the very best heading up near 5).

People complain about guys like Nathan Hauritz (strike rate of 66.6) not being penetrative enough, but Sobers had a Test bowling strike rate of 91.1, which means on average he'd go over 15 overs between wickets. Not exactly lethal by any standards. Even Marcus North (strike rate of 89.8) has taken wickets with more freqeuncy at Test level. Sobers also possesses a poorer average (34.03) than Kallis (31.90) too.

Imran Khan in comparison averaged 22.8 as a bowler, with over 4 wickets per test...and though his overall career batting average was a respectable 37 (for an allrounder), he didn't start his career as a good batsmen. Isolate his batting record as captain, in nearly 50 tests, he averaged 52. Kallis is not in that league as an allrounder.

Imran also bowled a hell of a lot more than Kallis ever has, because he was Pakistan's #1 bowler during the '70s and '80s, and also had the opportunity to bowl himself whenever he felt like it for a number of years as Pakistani Captain. If Kallis (12.4 overs per innings) had bowled as much as Imran did (22.5 overs per innings) and maintained his current career strike rate (67.7), he'd have an extra 210 wickets in his career, and would thus exclipse Imran's career total (362 wickets) by some 108 victims.

 

[mayhem20202]

Imran also bowled a hell of a lot more than Kallis ever has, because he was Pakistan's #1 bowler during the '70s and '80s, and also had the opportunity to bowl himself whenever he felt like it for a number of years as Pakistani Captain. If Kallis (12.4 overs per innings) had bowled as much as Imran did (22.5 overs per innings) and maintained his current career strike rate (67.7), he'd have an extra 210 wickets in his career, and would thus exclipse Imran's career total (362 wickets) by some 108 victims.

And, if I was the best bowler in the world, I would play for Australia, get lots of overs, take loads of wickets and then have more wickets than Murali................... however, what actually happened is that I am no good. Surely you can't base your arguments upon hypotheticals. You might also argue that if he bowled more, the probability of breaking down might have been higher and then he would have only made 8000 runs, and we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

[Damon_3388]

And, if I was the best bowler in the world, I would play for Australia, get lots of overs, take loads of wickets and then have more wickets than Murali................... however, what actually happened is that I am no good. Surely you can't base your arguments upon hypotheticals. You might also argue that if he bowled more, the probability of breaking down might have been higher and then he would have only made 8000 runs, and we wouldn't be having this debate.

Obviously it's a "what if", but what I'm saying is that Imran was firmly entrenched as Pakistan's #1 bowler for most of his career (he opened the bowling 79.58% of the time, and was at least part of the opening tandem 89.73% of the time he bowled), and was thus afforded more opportunity to take wickets than Kallis.

Your hypothetical ("if I was the best bowler in the world...") requires you to possess a talent which you don't have. Kallis has the talent, he just hasn't been afforded the opportunity to bowl as frequently as Imran did, mainly due to South Africa of the '90s and 2000s having more depth in their pace bowling attack than Pakistan did during the '70s and '80s. Kallis has always had quality specialist bowlers like Allan Donald, Shaun Pollock (arguably a bowling all-rounder), Makhaya Ntini, Dale Steyn, Morne Morkel, Andre Nel, Fanie de Villiers etc. ahead of him. Imran was competing with the likes of Sarfraz Nawaz, Sikander Bakht, Azeem Hafeez and Saleem Altaf during the '70s and early '80s, and a young Wasim Akram (also arguably a bowling all-rounder) and Waqar Younis during the late '80s and early '90s. From that group, only Wasim and Waqar come close to being as good as Imran (and they didn't fully come into their own until given full opportunity to lead the Pakistani attack once Imran retired from international cricket), and thus Imran was always going to be the lead pace bowling option for Pakistan (through either his own skill or force of his own will as Captain) and given optimum opportunity to take wickets.

Of course there's the chance that Kallis may have broken down with a heavier bowling workload, but with similar opportunity to Imran, he would have taken more wickets, and he may have even bowled better if given consistent use of the new ball as well (Kallis has bowled as part of the opening tandem just 3.39% of the time during his career). As it stands, Kallis' career figures would earn him a game as a specialist bowler in every attack in the world right now.

 

[getthefooty]

In my opinion, the greatest player of the last decade. Vastly, vastly underrated, and whichever way you pick apart his truly remarkable stats, they still speak volumes. Really it depends on how much credence you give to style when rating him as a bat in comparison to Tendulkar, Ponting etc. But his ability to bowl is what nudges him ahead as the cricketer of the decade.

 

[dan warna]

he hardly bowled for 3 or 4 seasons due to back problems is one issue, he was a very fast raw bowler at the start of his career and regularly hitting the deck at 140 plus.

The injury toll dragged him down a fair bit, also age.

Plus when you have an attack at the turn of the century of the calibre of ntini, pollock, donald and devilliers(sp) he's your change up bowler fishing when the others are out.

Bowls as much, by comparison as watto, though watto carries a heavier load opening the batting now than in the lower middle order where they originally slotted him.

 

[Mint Condition]

Obviously it's a "what if", but what I'm saying is that Imran was firmly entrenched as Pakistan's #1 bowler for most of his career (he opened the bowling 79.58% of the time, and was at least part of the opening tandem 89.73% of the time he bowled), and was thus afforded more opportunity to take wickets than Kallis.

Your hypothetical ("if I was the best bowler in the world...") requires you to possess a talent which you don't have. Kallis has the talent, he just hasn't been afforded the opportunity to bowl as frequently as Imran did, mainly due to South Africa of the '90s and 2000s having more depth in their pace bowling attack than Pakistan did during the '70s and '80s. Kallis has always had quality specialist bowlers like Allan Donald, Shaun Pollock (arguably a bowling all-rounder), Makhaya Ntini, Dale Steyn, Morne Morkel, Andre Nel, Fanie de Villiers etc. ahead of him. Imran was competing with the likes of Sarfraz Nawaz, Sikander Bakht, Azeem Hafeez and Saleem Altaf during the '70s and early '80s, and a young Wasim Akram (also arguably a bowling all-rounder) and Waqar Younis during the late '80s and early '90s. From that group, only Wasim and Waqar come close to being as good as Imran (and they didn't fully come into their own until given full opportunity to lead the Pakistani attack once Imran retired from international cricket), and thus Imran was always going to be the lead pace bowling option for Pakistan (through either his own skill or force of his own will as Captain) and given optimum opportunity to take wickets.

Of course there's the chance that Kallis may have broken down with a heavier bowling workload, but with similar opportunity to Imran, he would have taken more wickets, and he may have even bowled better if given consistent use of the new ball as well (Kallis has bowled as part of the opening tandem just 3.39% of the time during his career). As it stands, Kallis' career figures would earn him a game as a specialist bowler in every attack in the world right now.

Geez, I can't believe you're implying that Kallis is about as good as Imran Khan with the ball - one of the best fast bowlers in the history of the game. He didn't get the opportunity to bowl as much as Imran because he was never close to as good a bowler as Imran. You can also argue that Kallis' record, in terms of average and strike rate is much better than it otherwise may have been BECAUSE he was in the same team of the likes of Donald, Pollock, Steyn and Ntini. It's easier to take wickets bowling in partnership with those guys, than bowling with a team full of average bowlers like Imran often had to. South Africa also produces far better wickets for fast bowlers. Imran had to invent reverse swing and innovate a lot more to do so well in Pakistan.

How many hypotheticals do you want to put in here? I'll give you those, and say that if Imran had got to play as many test matches as Kallis has, his hypothetical amount of wickets would be twice as many as Kallis' hypothetical number of wickets. It's ridiculous talking in hypotheticals.

The fact is that Kallis averages less than two wickets per test. Yes his average and strike rate as a bowler is pretty good for a support bowler, but less than 2 wickets a test indicates he's never been a huge contributor with the ball.

 

[Cousin Jed]

No the fact that his average and strike rate is so good despite the "less than 2 wickets per test" indicates that he simply hasn't had to bowl a number of times.

 

[Damon_3388]

Geez, I can't believe you're implying that Kallis is about as good as Imran Khan with the ball - one of the best fast bowlers in the history of the game. He didn't get the opportunity to bowl as much as Imran because he was never close to as good a bowler as Imran. You can also argue that Kallis' record, in terms of average and strike rate is much better than it otherwise may have been BECAUSE he was in the same team of the likes of Donald, Pollock, Steyn and Ntini. It's easier to take wickets bowling in partnership with those guys, than bowling with a team full of average bowlers like Imran often had to. South Africa also produces far better wickets for fast bowlers. Imran had to invent reverse swing and innovate a lot more to do so well in Pakistan.

I'm not implying that Kallis is as good a bowler as Imran. I'm simply opposing your "just two wickets per Test" claim that you're using against Kallis by mentioning that he has never been given as many opportunities to bowl (particularly with the new ball) as Imran was during his career.

You're implying that by taking "just two wickets per Test" that Kallis is an ineffective bowler, when in fact he'd get a game as a specialist bowler in any side in the world. He simply doesn't bowl as much as a full-time bowler (just 12.4 overs per innings), and doesn't even bowl as much as other great alrounders like Imran and Sobers (averaged 22.5 and 22.3 overs per innings respectively), and therefore isn't afforded as many opportunities to take wickets. His strike rate and average show that he's definitely no slouch when given the ball.

 

[Simmonds2Hislop]

But if Tendulkar plays in any world team then he would be playing as a batsman and not as a all rounder, Kallis is the great modern bowler/batsman if I was picking a side now Tendulkar and Kallis would be the first ones picked.

If you were to pick a world 11 Kallis would barely get a bowl, so mainly it comes down to his batting.

If you had a bowling lineup of say, Steyn, Swann, Asif and an in form Mitchell Johnson, he'd get very few overs.

Or look at the attack from a few years ago - McGrath, Steyn, Murali, Warne , Flintoff. He wouldn't get a look in.