King Huskii
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Says the guy who blindly chooses a side
Jai Serong = Anti-vaxxer
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Says the guy who blindly chooses a side
Chief
~ Shmalpha ~
- Admin
- #127
It's neither blind nor a real choice. Or a side.
The data as a whole shows the vaccines work. I don't know what people get out of insisting they don't. I mean, I have listened to and read a fair bit about the mindset of the "vaccine skeptical" but it's still hard to fathom.
Do you refute these facts?
Chief
~ Shmalpha ~
- Admin
- #130
The vaccine WILL NOT stop you from exposure to the SARS-Cov-2 virus. It will help you fight off the virus before it develops into the disease.
Yes if you carry the virus you can pass it on. This is not controversial. Basic facts.
Yes you can be vaccinated and still die from Covid. But your chance of developing Covid-19 (the disease) after being exposed to SARS-Cov-2 (the virus) is much lower.
The chance of ending up in hospital for unvaccinated people is 15+ times the chance for vaccinated people. Probably more, given vaccinated people have more chance of dealing with the virus with very few symptoms. I don't have the stats on deaths but it is much higher for non-vaccinated people.
Death rates and other data:
How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?
To understand how the pandemic is evolving, it’s crucial to know how death rates from COVID-19 are affected by vaccination status.
ourworldindata.org
This is all old news. I do not watch or read as much about it as I have in the past years, but it does not seem to have changed.
owen87
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The vaccine WILL NOT stop you from exposure to the SARS-Cov-2 virus. It will help you fight off the virus before it develops into the disease.
Yes if you carry the virus you can pass it on. This is not controversial. Basic facts.
Yes you can be vaccinated and still die from Covid. But your chance of developing Covid-19 (the disease) after being exposed to SARS-Cov-2 (the virus) is much lower.
The chance of ending up in hospital for unvaccinated people is 15+ times the chance for vaccinated people. Probably more, given vaccinated people have more chance of dealing with the virus with very few symptoms. I don't have the stats on deaths but it is much higher for non-vaccinated people.
Death rates and other data:
How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?
To understand how the pandemic is evolving, it’s crucial to know how death rates from COVID-19 are affected by vaccination status.
View attachment 1746019
This is all old news. I do not watch or read as much about it as I have in the past years, but it does not seem to have changed.
Old mate trying to use facts out of context is the exact thing we were discussing being why the anti-vaccine crew cannot and should not be credited as being an equal and opposing argument to the get-vaccinated crew.
Facts can't really be used out of context here, they are facts. Here is another one, the vast majority of Australians who have died from Covid in the last 2 years have been vaccinated. Again, irrefutable.
Now, as Chief pointed out, unvaccinated people per 100,000 is had a higher death rate. Probably true. But are these fit and healthy unvaccinated? Are they already ill unvaccinated? Where they 90+ years old? I don't know, and neither do you i'd say. So the argument is moot. And not very scientific.
The other argument Chief likes to use is that the vaccine has saved millions of lives. This is obviously speculation and can't be proven one way or another. But let us say it is true, I could just as easily counter there are millions the vaccine HASN'T saved. There is thousands in Australia alone. You and Chief are surely capable or realising two things can be true at the same time? The vaccine can save lives at the same time as being pretty pointless for some people.
So people on the other side of your argument (as you put it), argue they were forced to take a vaccine that didn't stop them getting covid, didn't stop them passing it on to family or friends, and anyone they know who died of Covid has been vaccinated. And you can't possibly see how one might come to the conclusion at the very least, that overall, it's a pretty crappy vaccine? Especially after the very strong implication from politicians and media was that it bulletproof.
It's not really as outrageous as you make it out to be.
Chief
~ Shmalpha ~
- Admin
- #135
How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?
To understand how the pandemic is evolving, it’s crucial to know how death rates from COVID-19 are affected by vaccination status.
ourworldindata.org
Chief
~ Shmalpha ~
- Admin
- #136
Unvaccinated people die at a higher rate than vaccinated people.
Fact.
How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?
To understand how the pandemic is evolving, it’s crucial to know how death rates from COVID-19 are affected by vaccination status.
ourworldindata.org
During a pandemic, you might see headlines like “Half of those who died from the virus were vaccinated.”
Based on this headline, it would be wrong to draw any conclusions about whether the vaccines are protecting people from the virus. The headline is not providing enough information to draw any conclusions. <-- My emphasis for you Steele13 . You are giving facts without enough information to draw conclusions.
Let’s think through an example to see this.
Imagine we live in a place with a population of 60 people.
Then we learn that 10 people died. And we learn that 50% of them were vaccinated.
The newspaper may read, “Half of those who died from the virus were vaccinated.” But this headline does not tell us whether the vaccine protects people or not.
To be able to say anything, we also need to know about those who did not die: how many people in this population were vaccinated? And how many were not vaccinated?
And so on. Read it. You will be... well you won't change your mind I am sure.
This doesn't need to change my mind, because I didn't disagree with it. I do find it interesting that after the initial spike, there isn't much difference.Unvaccinated people die at a higher rate than vaccinated people.
Fact.
How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?
To understand how the pandemic is evolving, it’s crucial to know how death rates from COVID-19 are affected by vaccination status.
During a pandemic, you might see headlines like “Half of those who died from the virus were vaccinated.”Based on this headline, it would be wrong to draw any conclusions about whether the vaccines are protecting people from the virus. The headline is not providing enough information to draw any conclusions. <-- My emphasis for you Steele13 . You are giving facts without enough information to draw conclusions.Let’s think through an example to see this.Imagine we live in a place with a population of 60 people.
Then we learn that 10 people died. And we learn that 50% of them were vaccinated.The newspaper may read, “Half of those who died from the virus were vaccinated.” But this headline does not tell us whether the vaccine protects people or not.To be able to say anything, we also need to know about those who did not die: how many people in this population were vaccinated? And how many were not vaccinated?
And so on. Read it. You will be... well you won't change your mind I am sure.
The first part is possible, but again, just speculation.
owen87
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Wall of nonsense text is still nonsense.
They can be used out context. You are using them out of context. Chief has already given you an example of how this context matters.
At this stage, being ignorant of the facts in context isn't an accident. It's deliberate. Spreading misleading snippets of information, without the relevant context is therefore deliberate and wilful misrepresentation and misinformation.
I'm sorry you're not finding a receptive audience to your misinformation. I'm sorry people are unwilling to let it slide through to the keeper after seeing the harm caused to uneducated people by grifters and people deliberately sharing false or misleading information.
Read a book on it, there's a few, but most important is that you read a book by a relevant expert. The Oxford team who created the vaccine manufactured by Astra Zeneca wrote a book. The BioNTech team who created the vaccine manufactured by Pfizer wrote a book. You can read first hand how they did it, what they did, what part Astra Zeneca and Pfizer played in the process, how the regulators were involved, why it happened quicker than usual, and why it works.
If you're unwilling to bother educating yourself, then why bother coming in here trying to pretend you care enough to know what's going on?
Talk about a wall of nonsense text.
Here is a questions for you. Can the vaccine work, and also cause significant issues (possibly death) for some people?
Two opposing ideas can be right at the same time, something people on the far fringes of their arguments seem to regularly forget or ignore.
owen87
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You're welcome to refer to the TGA report(s) that provide all the details, and context, to answer your question.
Have you read the books?
owen87
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Who's on the fringes here?
As discussed previously, this isn't a both sides are equally correct and deserving of airtime and discussion.
The relevant experts (e.g. the TGA) can answer your question, with detail, and context. There's no 'fringes' there. It's the answer. The reports are public, you can read them any time you like, they're pretty easy to understand in clear English with limited scientific knowledge or expertise needed to comprehend them.
This is a bit like arguing that 1 + 1 = 2 is a 'fringe argument' and that the counter argument of 1 + 1 = window is also equally accurate and deserving of airtime.
In both situations one answer is correct, and in the case of vaccination (unlike the relatively simple 1 + 1 = 2) requires a certain level of expertise to properly analyse and understand. In lieu of having that expertise yourself, you rely on those who do, the vast majority of whom are all in furious agreement and simply say the same things in varying ways.
The vaccine worked, it was safe, any side effects were relatively uncommon and mostly minor (e.g. headaches, site specific soreness, maybe fever) and significantly less common and less serious than the 'side effects' experienced from actually contracting COVID unvaccinated.
The anti-vaccine side relies on largely discredited 'experts' e.g. Robert Malone, or people that simply don't actually have any expertise at all that use big words and pretend they know things.
Steele13 as somebody who worked in this industry for 20 years, and when I mean this industry, I mean infectious diseases, there is nothing more that I can add that Chief and Owen have not explained here that will illuminate why the vaccines were a success.
So you can either take my word with a grain of salt or move on to focus on something else in your life.
So you can either take my word with a grain of salt or move on to focus on something else in your life.
There is a fringe, and you're on it i'm afraid, as much as you don't want to believe it. One side might say, for example that everyone who is vaccinated will be dead within 10 years. Probably nonsense, we'll know for sure in 10 years. Your fringe is more "hook it to my veins, anyone who doesn't agree completely with me is a fool who has been sucked in by a grifter!!". Your rabid response has proved as much.
And though it's not possible, I would like to see you argue your point that vaccines worked with someone who had the vaccine and still died from Covid. There are many, many thousands of them after-all.
Anyway, i've had my fill arguing with fanatics. Cheers.
You don't like arguing? You just don't like to hear the truth. Very, very few people die from vaccines.
Whatever number you think it is, divide it by 10 and and then my another factor of 10 and then you might be close.
I never argued that point.
